Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

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Nobody cares who you believe. My interventions are not for you but for reasonable people who may be confused by your misinformation.
Such misinformation, like quoting your politicians and general. :eek:
I actually missed that he first said F4.2 that he was actually referring to F5 for SEAD.

"General Mille, Chief of Staff of the Air and Space Force, specified that the future standards of the Rafale, from F4.2 and especially around the future F5 standard, the design of which began this week, will be equipped with increasing and advanced capabilities in terms of the suppression of air defenses and evolution in a contested environment."

" according to General Mille, the Rafale F5 will be a "very different" aircraft, with the ability to process "huge volumes of data" and increased connectivity. In addition, it will make it possible to once again have so-called SEAD capabilities [suppression of enemy air defenses]."
 
Such misinformation, like quoting your politicians and general. :eek:
I actually missed that he first said F4.2 that he was actually referring to F5 for SEAD.

"General Mille, Chief of Staff of the Air and Space Force, specified that the future standards of the Rafale, from F4.2 and especially around the future F5 standard, the design of which began this week, will be equipped with increasing and advanced capabilities in terms of the suppression of air defenses and evolution in a contested environment."

" according to General Mille, the Rafale F5 will be a "very different" aircraft, with the ability to process "huge volumes of data" and increased connectivity. In addition, it will make it possible to once again have so-called SEAD capabilities [suppression of enemy air defenses]."
It's not worth repeating the same thing over and over again, we know that the general said that, what is misinformation is your interpretation of what he said, as if a general could not have political or circumstantial statements. Many other people have been saying the opposite for years and the Rand Corporation has studied the way France was doing SEAD/DEAD in Libya showing clearly that our doctrine was different from the US one.
 
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People will brush me aside. But for this FY only 25% of CAPEX will be used for imports. It will be reduced further.

And Navy has requested a new FMS clearance for 6 P8I.

There simply is no money to sign a 6 billion USD import deal.

The air force doesn't, but the navy does.
 
It's not worth repeating the same thing over and over again, we know that the general said that, what is misinformation is your interpretation of what he said, as if a general could not have political or circumstantial statements. Many other people have been saying the opposite for years and the Rand Corporation has studied the way France was doing SEAD/DEAD in Libya showing clearly that our doctrine was different from the US one.

Oh golly gosh. Even on air defence, they aren't agreeing with your deceitful BS

I have grave fears for Bechar06 for not bowing to the Rafale shrine. He has outed the "emperor's new clothes"
"In addition, it will make it possible to once again have so-called SEAD capabilities [suppression of enemy air defenses]."

Even Patrick said
Yorys said: Uh... why "again", did I miss something? The Rafale F4 can no longer do SEAD ???
Patrick said: They refer to the retirement decades ago of the AS .37 Martel.

The fact of the matter, is that the Rafale could never do SEAD.
 
Could you explain the supression of hawk missile at al whatiya without sead capability ?
There was no suppression SEAD mentioned in the article. I guess first you need to know what SEAD and DEAD is. I assume they used SCALP for DEAD, although the weapon wasn't mentioned. In fact there isn't much info at all. Even the article gives several possibilities and may not have even been a Rafale. The air forces mentioned have several types of aircraft.
 
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An era long past. The good old days, when France has some primitive SEAD capability, though 3 of the aircraft had the wrong freq. .
"The Martel was used by France against Libya during the Epervier military operation, supporting Chad. On 7 January 1987 four French Jaguars took off carrying one Martel each. Three did not launch their missiles, for they were programmed to aim at specific radar wavelengths,[4] but the last one hit an SA-6 radar, destroying it completely.[5]

On 7 March, following an air raid by Libyan MiG-21s and MiG-23s, another strike was mounted by ten Martel-equipped Jaguars from EC 4/11 (or more likely EC 3/3 "Ardennes" as that unit was the Martel specialist) against the radar installations at Ouadi Doum air base.[6]"
 
Yes. They will turn somersaults in funny ways. What the frog fanboys won't say, is it has no SEAD

You are trying to say the Rafale doesn't have a SEAD weapon, and it does not. It's gonna get one in the future.

But the French members here are saying the Rafale is still capable of performing the SEAD mission.

Apples and oranges.

For DGA and Dassault, the lack of a SEAD weapon is merely an American "we don't need a cannon no more 'cause we got missiles" moment. So they have merely decided to add a new weapon to the Rafale with the F5. It doesn't mean the French cannot operate against enemy radar.
 
There was no suppression SEAD mentioned in the article. I guess first you need to know what SEAD and DEAD is.

From the article above :
A Turkish Defense Ministry official confirmed that the attack on their positions "damaged some systems at the air base," without elaborating. However, a military source quoted in Turkish media has acknowledged that they received "9 precision air strikes against Turkish air defense systems", which had recently been installed in Al-Watiya, in one of the early phases of the development of the military base. The bombings "were successful", since they left "3 radars completely destroyed".

SEAD and DEAD defined (SEAD and DEAD: a DCS primer - Hollo Pointe Information Center)​

SEAD and DEAD are two separate yet related concepts: SEAD means Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses, while DEAD means Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses. In the case of the first, the goal is not destruction of air defenses, but nullification of their capabilities – aka, suppression. For DEAD, the goal is actual destruction of air defenses. Despite what one may think, one does not lead to the other, although they can be used in tandem.

Why does it matter?​

SEAD generally has a very different end state than DEAD: air defenses may be too difficult or well defended to attack directly, with factors such as terrain, intelligence, low altitude defenses, and hostile aircraft impacting whether or not an air defense system can be effectively attacked. Weapons such as the AGM-45 Shrike, AGM-78 Standard ARM, and AGM-88 HARM have only the ability to track radiation sources and only if the emitter remains on for the duration of the weapon’s flight. This means that an air defense system may shut off their radars at any point and result in a wasted missile (some more modern weapons have alternative guidance mechanisms; this will be discussed later). The end result is that the air defenses are likely still in place and an effective threat. Alternatively, the air defense system may only lose one of its radar systems, which can easily be replaced or repaired, and it may not be a critical radar to the site’s operation.

DEAD, by contrast to SEAD, effectively destroys the air defense in question: launchers, nearby support equipment, munitions stockpiles, and so on are destroyed or rendered unusable. This goal is much harder to achieve as it requires planning, coordination, and a greater pool of resources than SEAD. SEAD may only require a handful of aircraft, while DEAD requires coordination of several flights of differing aircraft and capabilities. Depending on the era, it also incurs a much greater amount of risk to attacking aircraft.
I assume they used SCALP for DEAD, although the weapon wasn't mentioned.
It's a little bit overkill no ? 9 destruction with only two planes. HAMMER would have been much better.
another strike was mounted by ten Martel-equipped Jaguars from EC 4/11
Martel was a way to destroy enemy radars
 
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Last but not least the Air defense system was MIM-23 Hawk
You're perhaps right Al watiya could have been done by M-2000 ? ;)

mim-23..60's with a 1970 update, US retired 1990......Frightening....
I don't know what country, or what aircraft, or what weapon and and it really doesn't matter. I just like watching you guys squirm. Your politicians and generals are ok with saying the truth..it's the fanboys that go into a panicky denial. We can assume it was a GPS weapon fired outside of it's range. Was the thing even in operation? Or like half of the 3rd word. They turn it off for lunch and an afternoon sleep.
 
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The official french doctrine concerning SEAD :
p19 point 318

"The wars of the future will undoubtedly be fought in a hybrid environment. The idea that using a few weapons specifically dedicated to anti-radar could then allow for free operation is now over. The possibility of severe casualties if the various components do not plan a true joint operation is therefore very high. Each branch and domain must operate in coordination to achieve the campaign objectives. In other words, interoperability of SEAD operations is a prerequisite for any future high-intensity campaign. Given current military capabilities, the two main categories of targeting (lethal and non-lethal) must be addressed to describe the currently conceivable SEAD capabilities."

In other words, no need to wait for a new MARTEL or EW effector. It is not the kind of effector that is sought but a complete capability based on a collaborative work of which whatever the fighter like Rafale or F-35 would be only one of the nodes.
 
P42 point 710 :
In addition, the integration of a "collaborative electronic surveillance" (or "collaborative ROEM") capability on aircraft intended to operate in SEAD missions via the networking of their systems is now essential to meet the "real time" challenge imposed by the modern threat, in particular by allowing for the precise and near-real time location of targets, including when they are mobile or emitting in a fleeting manner.
Current developments in "3D localization" within the framework of the Rafale program partially cover this need, which must be completed by the electronic warfare supervisor, studied within the framework of the "GE 2025" PEA, and by the "Contact" radio-logic program.
 
The fact of the matter, is that the Rafale could never do SEAD.
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

In France, the doctrine is defined by the Centre interarmées de concepts, de doctrines et d'expérimentations. The latter has defined the concept of "Neutralisation of enemy air defences".


I have translated some excerpts for you:

First, an extract from the promulgation letter of 22 July 2022 N° 113/ARM/CICDE/NP :

The Joint Exploratory Concept CEIA-3.6.4_SEAD(2022) entitled "Neutralization of Enemy Air Defences", dated 22 July 2022, is promulgated.

Then some elements that shed light on the reasons for the French doctrine:

From the Vietnam War to recent operations

306. The post-Vietnam era saw the development of advanced anti-radar missiles with sometimes radically different technological approaches. But the evolution has also been true for specialised electronic warfare assets or new air tactics for SEAD operations. In response, the complexity of the adversary's IADS has evolved to complicate targeting and provide resilience to air defence systems. The need for agile, efficient, and increasingly resource-intensive SEAD missions will progressively prove to be a key element for air campaigns.

307. Contrary to some preconceptions, the eradication of Iraqi air defence in 1991 was at least a joint affair, setting an example of what becomes possible when the full spectrum is used. The coalition used air, ground, special forces and naval forces to degrade, destroy and suppress Saddam Hussein's air defences, using a variety of weapons and effects. However, the ensuing years have seen a significant reduction in the number of personnel dedicated to SEAD missions, and a sharp reduction in the joint approach. Yet, much of the success of SEAD missions is due to the ability of coalition forces to combat SDAI in a comprehensive, if not holistic, approach.

308. While there have been some great coalition successes in the SEAD domain over time, there are some pet peeves that can hinder the effectiveness of this type of mission. For example, many still believe that the SEAD mission is to use AGM88 HARM (or equivalent) missiles on a massive scale, and that this miracle weapon will remove any air defence threat. In the field, it does not take long to realise that this is not true.

309. In Kosovo, for example, despite the fact that NATO SEAD operations accounted for 12% of total combat sorties, Serbian ground/air systems adapted their tactics to increase their survivability (blind fire, etc.) and, as a result, were able to remain partially operational throughout the conflict. NATO forces fired hundreds of anti-radar missiles in 1999, with very little destructive effect against Serbian air defences. Although the neutralisation of enemy air defences was eventually achieved, this was due more to the fact that Serbian weaponry was inferior and suffered from poor logistics than the effectiveness of dedicated weaponry.

310. The need for greater 'inter-arming' of the SEAD mission was perhaps most evident during the Libyan campaign in 2011. During the Libyan campaign, the neutralisation of the enemy SDAI had to be accomplished, by necessity, with a broader scope than the traditional SEAD assets - which were relatively uncommitted to the operation. Among other solutions, for example, offshore attack helicopters flew missions to hit radar sites, often in coordination with fixed-wing aircraft. Similarly, many of the Libyan regime's relatively defended military targets, such as radars, missile launch sites and communication nodes, were struck by sea-launched cruise missiles.

311. Although Libyan weaponry was old and therefore less advanced, the Libyan SDAI was relatively present, but more importantly, unique. Indeed, the latter often used non-military infrastructure for command, control and communications (C3), which complicated targeting for obvious legal and humanitarian reasons. For example, to counteract the targetting inherent in SEAD missions, the Libyan military used civilian air traffic systems, or even recent on-board commercial aviation technology. In addition to supporting the Libyan civilian defence infrastructure, urban areas were instrumentalised by the Libyan regime, using the inherent potential for collateral damage that they represented. This illustrated one of the many problems associated with the complexity of SEAD missions.

312. Three years later, Russia - determined to radically change the face of potential conflict in Europe - has disseminated a multitude of interlocking S300 and S400 air threats for which the West was neither prepared nor trained. New long-range ground/air systems, integrated and redundant command and control networks, a hodgepodge of weapon free zones and weapon engagement zones, and the ability to orchestrate defence across multiple domains have radically changed the SEAD environment. The term 'Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/AD)' quickly became part of the SEAD lexicon.

[...]

318. The wars of the future will undoubtedly be fought in a hybrid environment. The idea that using a few weapons specifically dedicated to anti-radar can then operate in complete freedom is now over. The possibility of severe casualties if the different components do not plan a real joint operation is therefore very high. Each branch and area must work in coordination to achieve the campaign objectives. In other words, interoperability of SEAD operations is a prerequisite for any future high intensity campaign. Given current military capabilities, the two main categories of targeting (lethal and non-lethal) must be addressed to describe the SEAD capabilities that are currently possible.

319. Kinetic SEAD capabilities can be described as an activity in which forces employ lethal munitions or weapons to neutralise/suppress enemy air defence. While specific air vehicles have been developed to employ SEAD weapons, a variety of effectors can effectively contribute to the SEAD mission with a multitude of resources. In addition to dedicated weaponry such as the AGM88 used by our allies****, stand-off weapons* or cruise missiles** can be used by various aircraft*** against enemy air defences.

* Such as some versions of the AASM.
** Such as the SCALP and navalised SCALP missiles.
*** French policy in terms of military aviation is to favour the versatility of its aircraft. In the framework of anti-radar combat, the French Air Force deploys conventional means (laser-guided bombs, air-to-surface missiles) in close collaboration with electromagnetic intelligence.

**** So not by the French, not to day and not in the futur, except if the doctrine related to "Neutralization of Enemy Air Defences" promulgated in July 2022 is modified. And this is not part of General Mille's remit.
 
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As for the Rafale's ability to carry out a SEAD mission, we learn the following:

By validating the approach during the Tactical Leadership Program (TLP) exercises organised by NATO, the air force reintegrated the SEAD mission into its competencies by using the resources of the SPECTRA electronic warfare system combined with the SAR mode (synthetic aperture radar calculating a radar image of the ground) of the Rafale's RBE2 radar, which makes it possible to guide a non-specialised munition (GBU or AASM) on the coordinates of the enemy's defence radar emission.

After all, the "OMNIROLE" qualifier for the Rafale means that it can do all roles, not just certain roles like multi-role aircraft, which means that it is capable of SEAD.
 
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Poor Patrick, his message box will be full. from the fanboys telling him to stop saying the truth..We want to spread BS all over the internet....

this translate as the Rafale can't do SEAD
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/cicde/20220722-CEIA-3.6.4_SEAD-VF.pdf
"The wars of the future will undoubtedly be fought in a hybrid confrontation environment37 . The idea that using a few weapons specifically dedicated to antiradar can then allow to operate in complete freedom is now over. The possibility of severe losses if the different components do not plan a true joint operation is therefore very high. Each branch and domain must operate in coordination to achieve the campaign objectives. In other words, the interoperability of SEAD operations is a prerequisite for any future high-intensity campaign Given current military skills, the two main categories of targeting (lethal and non-lethal) must be addressed in describing capabilities.SEAD currently possible"