This also translate as F-35 can't do also without help from the army (HIMARS, CAESAR) or from satellites.
Read well the text everywhere it is about joint operation, inter-army, shared datas ...
Read well the text everywhere it is about joint operation, inter-army, shared datas ...
where did i say the F-35 did full SEAD?. It comes in block 4. We rely on our growlers and super hornets, AARGM / ER
Last edited:
Yes in the same way we rely on rafale but for the future we have to rely on joint operations.
It is unbelievable the power of nuisance you have, we wonder if you have a brain or if you are a bot of poor quality only capable of repeating the same thing over and over again and inaccessible to reasoning.
Because your quote is the perfect counter-example to what you want to demonstrate, the weapons specifically dedicated to anti radar that are criticized in your quote are the weapons used by the US, which the French abandoned last century and which were replaced by non-specific weapons! !!
And what you put in bold is the French doctrine, already in application with the Rafale, so thank you for quoting again the text that I had quoted myself to demonstrate how far ahead the Rafale was in doing SEAD in today's complex environments, and how useless AGM88 type missiles were in this context.
Do F5 version will have any engine & Radar upgrade? And is it possible to upgrade F3R/F4.2 to F5 version later?
Except the Rafale can't do SEAD..It can only do DEAD when it is able to. There aren't many 1960's SAMs operating.
The french want a future SEAD capability.
Is there a translation error for you? Or is it an english thing. I used google on the airdefense website. Deepl is suppose to be better, if you want to do your own to hindi from the PDF.That quote dismisses your own argument.
It said SEAD stopped years ago. the rafale can't do it. They have to try use joint forces, to try and do sams. good luck, without the basics. The truth is from their politician. They are going to rely on NATO for SEAD.
Last edited:
"The idea that using a few weapons specifically dedicated to antiradar can then allow to operate in complete freedom is now over"
@randomradio is correct.
The quote you translated is saying that what you are arguing for isn't sufficient for SEAD.
It's you misunderstanding... The French can't do it now. They don't even have an anti-radar missile. They say freedom is over.
But wait...They have said they want to SEAD again in F5 for SEAD/DEAD. freedom restored.
It's a game of leapfrog, as SAMs improve and aircraft improve to counter. You use every trick in the book.
SU-30
"The potential purchase of the DRDO-developed Rudram Anti-Radiation Missile (ARM) by the Indian Air Force also demonstrates the significance that the SEAD/DEAD missions have come to have along India’s frontiers.
Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari recently stated that the Indian Air Force would concentrate on introducing “made-in-India weapons” in light of the lessons learned from the Ukraine-Russian conflict.
Ukraine’s efforts to halt the Russian onslaught have significantly benefited from the military hardware hastily delivered by the US and other western nations. The American HARM missile (anti-radar) has struck out among them for its capacity to destroy Russian radars and has grown to be a significant nuisance for the Russian forces."
Your SU-30 does SEAD/DEAD
Growler and super hornet does SEAD/DEAD
F-16 weasel does SEAD/DEAD
Etcetera, should we make a complete list?
Last edited:
That's because French doctrine is slightly different. Planes evolve, threats evolve and so does strategy and tactics. If French want Rafale to evolve then why are you so against it, is beyond me?
Anyways, Dassault have agreed to integrate Astra onto our Rafales, why they can't integrate NGARM is anybody's guess?! With that our Rafale would be full SEAD/DEAD capable even in the traditional manner.
I'm not against it, I'm all for it. They are an ally and we may depend on them. It's the fanboy BS and the rest of the post with your BS, that gets annoying. Although Ukraine is just sticking on a missile, firing it and hoping for the best. There is a lot done on the plane, before it is fired that counts. Your SU would need stuff. to use the missile properly.
Last edited:
CEPA/10S tests the new Rafale Marine F4.1 standard
Direction : Navy / Published on : 21 April 2023
Since February 2023, the fighter detachment of the CEPA/10S (naval aeronautics practical experimentation and acceptance centre) has been carrying out trials on the Rafale using the new F4.1 standard. This new standard introduces "collaborative combat" through improvements to the SPECTRA self-protection system and the air-to-air fire control of the METEOR missile.
The F4.1 standard also brings a number of capability gains, including the arrival of the SCORPION helmet-mounted sight, the new 1000kg AASM air-to-ground weapon, the NAVWAR inertial unit upgrade, and a new software version of the Talios laser designation POD.
CEPA/10S has already flown nearly 100 hours on the Rafale Marine F4.1. The experimental campaign began on board the Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier from 21 to 30 March, involving no fewer than 3 Rafale Marine F4.1 aircraft, a team of more than 60 air marines, DGA experts and Rafale programme manufacturers.
Nearly 40 test flights of the new standard were carried out on board, to confirm its suitability for the onboard environment, ensure that there was no regression in capabilities compared with the F3R standard, and test the many new functions. In particular, these flights were used to assess the specific features inherent in aeromaritime missions: air/sea threats, ageing of equipment specific to catapults/landings, use of the NARANG refuelling pod. In addition, opportunities for interaction of the F4.1 standard with the airborne group and surface forces at sea have enabled this new standard to be evaluated under complex conditions representative of the Rafale's operational conditions of use (radar jamming by a FREMM DA, GPS jamming by DGA/MI). These complex evaluations, in interaction with the operational units, are fully in line with the desire to prepare for high intensity conflicts and the threats present in today's theatres.
This campaign on board the Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier also provided an opportunity to test new functions on the ground: aircraft carrier reference alignment, F4.1 version of the Harpagon information system (fault reading), evaluation of the SEFIAM electric trolley for positioning all types of cargo and weapons.
CEPA/10S is now working on finalising the work that will enable the F4.1 standard to be brought into operational service within the naval aviation industry in the near future.
Direction : Navy / Published on : 21 April 2023
Since February 2023, the fighter detachment of the CEPA/10S (naval aeronautics practical experimentation and acceptance centre) has been carrying out trials on the Rafale using the new F4.1 standard. This new standard introduces "collaborative combat" through improvements to the SPECTRA self-protection system and the air-to-air fire control of the METEOR missile.
The F4.1 standard also brings a number of capability gains, including the arrival of the SCORPION helmet-mounted sight, the new 1000kg AASM air-to-ground weapon, the NAVWAR inertial unit upgrade, and a new software version of the Talios laser designation POD.
CEPA/10S has already flown nearly 100 hours on the Rafale Marine F4.1. The experimental campaign began on board the Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier from 21 to 30 March, involving no fewer than 3 Rafale Marine F4.1 aircraft, a team of more than 60 air marines, DGA experts and Rafale programme manufacturers.
Nearly 40 test flights of the new standard were carried out on board, to confirm its suitability for the onboard environment, ensure that there was no regression in capabilities compared with the F3R standard, and test the many new functions. In particular, these flights were used to assess the specific features inherent in aeromaritime missions: air/sea threats, ageing of equipment specific to catapults/landings, use of the NARANG refuelling pod. In addition, opportunities for interaction of the F4.1 standard with the airborne group and surface forces at sea have enabled this new standard to be evaluated under complex conditions representative of the Rafale's operational conditions of use (radar jamming by a FREMM DA, GPS jamming by DGA/MI). These complex evaluations, in interaction with the operational units, are fully in line with the desire to prepare for high intensity conflicts and the threats present in today's theatres.
This campaign on board the Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier also provided an opportunity to test new functions on the ground: aircraft carrier reference alignment, F4.1 version of the Harpagon information system (fault reading), evaluation of the SEFIAM electric trolley for positioning all types of cargo and weapons.
CEPA/10S is now working on finalising the work that will enable the F4.1 standard to be brought into operational service within the naval aviation industry in the near future.
The quote's basically saying having just the DRDO ARM isn't enough.
Also, India introducing Indian weapons is over 15 years old.
GKN Aerospace to close Missouri plant, lay off over 700
The first round of layoffs is slated to start Aug. 25 as the company winds down the plant’s operations.Parts manufacturer GKN Aerospace is closing its manufacturing facility in Hazelwood, Missouri, by the end of 2024, laying off over 700 workers, according to the state’s WARN site.
The Hazelwood facility had been struggling for years, a GKN Aerospace spokesperson told Manufacturing Dive in an email.
“Over the past decade, GKN Aerospace has invested more than $80 [million] in the site, and sought to move work from other GKN Aerospace sites to St. Louis to support it,” the spokesperson said. “However, having carried out a thorough assessment of the site’s capabilities and cost base, it became clear it was no longer financially viable.”
Employees were notified of the company’s closure plans in February 2022, according to a letter to President Joe Biden from Robert Martinez Jr., international president of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers. The labor union sought out Biden’s help to keep the Hazelwood plant from closing.
The first round of layoffs is expected to begin on Aug. 25 as the company winds down the plant’s operations and conducts employee separations, according to the WARN letter.
The final layoff will be by the end of 2024. No bumping rights exist.
The plant was acquired from defense giant Boeing almost 20 years ago, according to the company’s website. The plant supplied composite and metallic aerostructure parts to Boeing, Sikorsky, Bell Helicoptors and Lockheed Martin.
For Boeing specifically, the plant produced “essential, complex parts” for its fighter jets which the U.S. Air Force, Navy and allies utilize, the St. Louis Business Journal reported in May.
News of the closure comes amid a lawsuit Boeing filed in December at the St. Louis County Court against GKN Aerospace’s parent company, Melrose Industries.
Boeing accused the United Kingdom-based company of failing to gain a profit from the GKN Aerospace St. Louis and of breaching contracts to supply it, the St. Louis Business Journal. The defense behemoth also accused Melrose Industries of trying to avoid liability and make Boeing acquire the company on “unfavorable terms,” the St. Louis Business Journal reported.
Attorneys for GKN Aerospace have filed a motion to dismiss the case and had filed a lawsuit against Boeing at the Delaware Court of Chancery in December, the St. Louis Business Journal reported. Boeing filed a motion to dismiss the case, according to the most recent court filing.
GKN Aerospace cannot comment on Boeing at this time, the spokesperson said.
The viewpoint of an Indian soldier:
‘Rafales will provide India major advantage in Tibet in case of aerial combat’: Ex-IAFchief Dhanoa
New Delhi | Aug 02, 2020 08:49 PM IST
Former IAF chief BS Dhanoa said the Rafale, with its fantastic electronic warfare suite and maneuverability, will be able use mountainous terrain in Tibet to its advantage and blind the enemy before India’s strike aircraft penetrate hostile airspace to carry out their missions.
The Rafale aircraft will give India a strategic advantage in case of any aerial combat with China in the mountainous Tibet region as the fleet will be able to use the terrain to its advantage, destroy enemy air defence and incapacitate the surface-to-air missiles, former Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal (retd) B S Dhanoa said on Sunday.
Dhanoa, known as the architect of the Balakot strikes, said the Rafale jets along with S-400 missile systems will give the Indian Air Force a major combat edge in the entire region and that India’s adversaries will think twice before starting a war with it.
In case of Pakistan, he said the purpose of the S-400 and Rafale is to hit Pakistani aircraft inside Pakistani air space and not when they come inside Indian territory, adding the neighbouring country would not have responded on February 27 last year to the Balakot air strikes if India had the French-manufactured jets then.
In an interview to PTI, Dhanoa said the Rafale, with its fantastic electronic warfare suite and maneuverability, will be able use mountainous terrain in Tibet to its advantage and blind the enemy before India’s strike aircraft penetrate hostile airspace to carry out their missions.
Five Rafale jets out of 36 arrived India last week at a time India is in the midst of a bitter border row with China in the high altitude eastern Ladakh region.
“Rafale has got a fantastic Electronic Warfare (EW) suite (SPECTRA), fantastic weapons and therefore are capable of protecting themselves electronically besides being able to use the terrain to their advantage,” Dhanoa said.
“So they (Rafales) can play an important role in doing DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defence) on the Surface-to-Air Missiles that the Chinese have put on Tibet.
“Once you take out those surface to air missiles, then other aircraft like Su30, Jaguars, even Mig 21s can go out and drop the bombs on the Chinese forces. The strike aircraft carrying bombs can put tonnes and tonnes of bombs on the enemy troops, freely carrying out their mission. But if you do not do DEAD then you will suffer a lot of casualties,” he said.
The leading air forces globally carry out Suppression of Enemy Air Defence (SEAD) or DEAD using their top of the line aircraft or weapons before launching any major operation in hostile territories.
As the Chief of Air Staff, Dhanoa had strongly defended the Rafale deal when the opposition parties ramped up attack on the government alleging massive irregularities in the procurement. The top IAF brass led by Dhanoa played a key role in implementation of the mega deal.
“Against China there are big Himalayan mountains in between us which create serious line of sight issues. You can put a missile with a range of 300-400 kms on the ground in Tibet or in India. But it will only work within the line of sight,” he said.
He said the Rafales, with terrain following capability, will give India a major capability enhancement.
“In air combat, the first thing that is important is information dominance, you get information and deny the enemy the information. The key role the Rafales will play in Tibet is information dominance and in case of Pakistan, it is a major deterrent. Of course there will be other roles too,” he said.
Asked about the comparison between the Rafales and J-20 fighter jets of China, he said the Chinese aircraft is not stealthy and presently, with its current engines, cannot supercruise unlike the newly-acquired Indian fleet.
In a beyond visual range (BVR) combat, he said Indian missiles are far superior than theirs. The French avionics on board the Rafale are “far superior” than the Chinese systems in J-20s, he said.
“Hence in a BVR environment the Rafales are superior to the J-20s,” he added.
“With the induction of the Rafales we will have a tremendous jump in capability. That’s why I called both (Rafale and S 400) of them game changers. Both these platforms will give the IAF a tremendous capability jump. The Rafale in the air and S-400 on the ground.
In October 2018, India signed a USD 5 billion deal to buy the S-400 air defence missile systems from Russia to bolster the IAF’s air defence mechanism.
The ‘Triumf’ interceptor-based missile system can destroy incoming hostile aircraft, missiles and even drones at ranges of up to 400 km. The delivery of the missile systems is scheduled to begin next year.
“Both S-400 and Rafales are critical game changers. Rafale is a deterrent. The purpose of deterrence is not to fight a war. Purpose of deterrence is to make the other person think twice before he starts a war or a skirmish with you,” he said.
He said the Pakistanis would not have responded on February 27 last year to India’s Balakot strikes if India had the Rafale jets.
In this context, he also mentioned an operation by the IAF to drop bombs on a Pakistani post along the LoC in Kel sector in 2002, and how Pakistani Air Force never dared to respond to it.
“On August 2, 2002, we did bombing of a Pakistani post as the Pakistanis had intruded about 600-700 metres inside the LoC in our area and set up a post. We bombed with four Mirage 2000s and after that the Pakistanis never came back,” Dhanoa said.
“The Pakistanis never ever dreamt of bombing an Indian post in retaliation because we had Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles on Mirage 2000, MiG 29 and the Su-30 Ks and they did not have any BVR missiles on any of their fighters,” he recalled.
“They just kept quiet about it and just didn’t acknowledge that something had happened and later on played it low key when the news did break in the international media! That is what is called deterrence,” he added.
Asked whether India should consider procuring two more squadrons of Rafales as it makes operational sense, Dhanoa called it a good idea and said that it will be the “cheapest option” of getting a 4.5 generation fighter into the air force.
“We already have infrastructure for two squadrons. We do not need additional infrastructure for the next two squadrons. They will come, in my assessment, at 60 to 70 per cent of the cost of the current ones,” he said.
“The cost of research and development for all India-specific enhancements have already been covered. The next two squadrons of Rafales will be the cheapest option of getting a 4.5 generation fighter into the air force,” he added.
Dhanoa, who retired as the IAF Chief on September 30 last year, said having two more squadrons of Rafales will give the force a lot of strength.
“If you have 72-80 aircraft, it will match whatever F-16s the Pakistanis have got. It will be good for deterrence,” he said adding it will make economic sense.
Dhanoa also thanked all the people who stood by the Rafale deal, including the defence minister, the civil servants, the then defence secretary, the director general (acquisition) and many others in the government.
“You have to give them full marks, because they stood by it despite many apprehensions. Normally everybody gets scared that this deal may be termed later as a scam and they may be hauled up by the investigation agencies after their retirement, or some other roving inquiry that may happen which may implicate them in the future. These people stood by it; we signed and executed the deal,” he said.
Dhanoa said the political leadership also stood their ground and did not dump the deal.
“They were going into an election. You could have always opted for a soft option of setting up a committee. Everybody stood their ground. The national leadership, the bureaucracy. That is why you have the aircraft,” he added.
Dhanoa also expressed happiness that the first squadron of Rafales will be part of the Number 17 Squadron, also known as ‘Golden Arrows’, based in Ambala.
“I am very happy...I was the last Commodore Commandant of 17 squadron. It got number plated in March 2012. It stopped flying in December 2011. Having celebrated our Diamond Jubilee in October 2011. Last year the Squadron has been resurrected and this year aircraft have finally come to the Squadron,” he said.
“Golden Arrows have a very rich tradition. The Squadron has fought in all the wars. It participated in the Liberation of Goa, 1965 war, 1971 war, and it fought in Kargil,” he added.
Dhanoa commanded the squadron during the Kargil war.
“In case, there is fighting in Eastern Ladakh, we will not miss it,” the Air Chief Marshal (Retd.) said in a lighter vein.
He never heard of AEW&C? It would be the same for most aircraft. I stopped reading there, but I'm sure he went on to sing the praise of the Rafale, even though SEAD doesn't come till F5. I think it is working well for Indian defence. They may have different plans for SEAD on their Rafale and including their SU SEAD capability.
Last edited: