Off-Topic Chit-Chat

Ashwathama said:
Just google his username vstol jockey. There's an entire thread on Other Forum dedicated to it
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someone from Older Forum posted the stuff on DFI as a separate thread. Most data about it is in Older Forum. But the design has undergone changes after that which has helped to enhance its shaping stealth.
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
@_Anonymous_ @vsdoc

@Nilgiri @Milspec

Rakhigarhi DNA study questions Aryan invasion theory, claims author - The Economic Times
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I have always maintained that Rig Veda and Puranas are an authentic source of History. I have also maintained that Aryans were Indians and did not come from anywhere, infact they went out of India to other parts of the world and that South Indians are the original pure Aryans. This DNA study has proven what I had stated all along in another thread started by @vsdoc. Now be prepared for some real crap from him.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
I have always maintained that Rig Veda and Puranas are an authentic source of History. I have also maintained that Aryans were Indians and did not come from anywhere, infact they went out of India to other parts of the world and that South Indians are the original pure Aryans. This DNA study has proven what I had stated all along in another thread started by @vsdoc. Now be prepared for some real crap from him.
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Today some big event ,a PC has happened
In Delhi National Muesuem

Aryan Invasion Theory to be finally demolished
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
@_Anonymous_ @vsdoc

@Nilgiri @Milspec

Rakhigarhi DNA study questions Aryan invasion theory, claims author - The Economic Times
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It juts proves that genetic studies is another discipline that cannot add anymore clarity to this debate than the fields of linguistics and archaeology already have . On the contrary the title of the various articles on this new findings appear to be misleading. The traditional Aryan migration theory , the linguistic model, postulated a group of Indo-Aryan speaking group moving into India after the collapse of the IVC. Archaeology also appears to support the view that the material culture associated with the Indo-Aryans, that is the PGW culture, emerged after the late Harappan phase. This finding , at least in my opinion, has no bearing on the Aryan migration model as had been proposed by the linguists.


However it does seem to contradict the earlier reports of the findings of the Harvard group, where they indicated the IVC population, based on the IVC periphery aDNA samples, may have included ancient Iranian farmer ancestry besides south Asian hunter gatherers.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
I have always maintained that Rig Veda and Puranas are an authentic source of History. I have also maintained that Aryans were Indians and did not come from anywhere, infact they went out of India to other parts of the world and that South Indians are the original pure Aryans. This DNA study has proven what I had stated all along in another thread started by @vsdoc. Now be prepared for some real crap from him.
Click to expand...

Since a considerable segment of the present Indo-Aryan speaking population in that region has the so called 'steppe gene', the apparent lack of steppe genes in the Rakhigarhi aDNA samples, indicates the present indo-Aryan speaking population may have had nothing to do with the IVC. I haven't read the new report, but the earlier reports indicated the Rakhigarhi samples showed a genetic similarity with the a Dravidian speaking tribe called 'Irulas' who spread out in Kerala and TN. To summarize this neither proves a Indo-Aryan migration into or out of India.
 
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S. A. T. A said:
It juts proves that genetic studies is another discipline that cannot add anymore clarity to this debate than the fields of linguistics and archaeology already have . On the contrary the title of the various articles on this new findings appear to be misleading. The traditional Aryan migration theory , the linguistic model, postulated a group of Indo-Aryan speaking group moving into India after the collapse of the IVC. Archaeology also appears to support the view that the material culture associated with the Indo-Aryans, that is the PGW culture, emerged after the late Harappan phase. This finding , at least in my opinion, has no bearing on the Aryan migration model as had been proposed by the linguists.


However it does seem to contradict the earlier reports of the findings of the Harvard group, where they indicated the IVC population, based on the IVC periphery aDNA samples, may have included ancient Iranian farmer ancestry besides south Asian hunter gatherers.
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I had posted the date of birth of Lord Rama and a similar astronomical analysis was done using the same planetarium software for Mahabharata war and that was predicted to be 16th Oct 5561BC.
The Scientific Dating of the Mahabharat War
Now Vedas are of much earlier date and Lord Rama was born even 2000 yrs earlier. How can there be any such aryan migration theory. The link below again explains why I treat our ancient texts as a rich source of History.
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/MahabharataII.pdf
 
S. A. T. A said:
Since a considerable segment of the present Indo-Aryan speaking population in that region has the so called 'steppe gene', the apparent lack of steppe genes in the Rakhigarhi aDNA samples, indicates the present indo-Aryan speaking population may have had nothing to do with the IVC. I haven't read the new report, but the earlier reports indicated the Rakhigarhi samples showed a genetic similarity with the a Dravidian speaking tribe called 'Irulas' who spread out in Kerala and TN. To summarize this neither proves a Indo-Aryan migration into or out of India.
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But it proves that whole of India upto Indus was inhabited by original Indians only.
 
vstol Jockey said:
But it proves that whole of India upto Indus was inhabited by original Indians only.
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Well i dont know much about what constitutes original indians, but if you take into account the views of indigenous school of thought that claimed that IVC was proto-Vedic, then this finding appear to debunk this model too. What it appears to shows is that present north indian population has affinities with the populations of ancient central Asia and Europe, but not with the IVC.
 
S. A. T. A said:
Well i dont know much about what constitutes original indians, but if you take into account the views of indigenous school of thought that claimed that IVC was proto-Vedic, then this finding appear to debunk this model too. What it appears to shows is that present north indian population has affinities with the populations of ancient central Asia and Europe, but not with the IVC.
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Once again you are misreading it. I am saying that South Indians are the original Indians/Aryans and they mixed with people from Central Asia and Iran much later in the history than what has been claimed. The people who came from outside to mix were also originally from India and they brought these new genes to India from other places. The people fo North India and south India are same group of people. The south Indians have less mixing of foreign genes compared to North Indians but they are same genes. You will be shocked to know that Jatts of North India and Nairs of Kerala have same genes and ancestory. The word Aryan has been used in many vedas including Rig veda and we know for sure that vedas existed much before the dates of Rakhigarhi.
 
vstol Jockey said:
I had posted the date of birth of Lord Rama and a similar astronomical analysis was done using the same planetarium software for Mahabharata war and that was predicted to be 16th Oct 5561BC.
The Scientific Dating of the Mahabharat War
Now Vedas are of much earlier date and Lord Rama was born even 2000 yrs earlier. How can there be any such aryan migration theory. The link below again explains why I treat our ancient texts as a rich source of History.
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/MahabharataII.pdf
Click to expand...

I wont dispute the astronomical data in the epic literature, however any early date for the ealy puranas, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, does not appear to have any resonance with the archaeological data. Prof B.B Lal, Independent India's first DG of ASI, carried out a series of excavation , called the Archaeology of Mahabharatha and Ramayana, where he excavated in the sites traditionally associated with the epics like Hastinanapura, Ahichchhatra , Kosambi, Sravasti etc, and was able to detect evidence for settlements only as old as 1200 BCE( the painted grey ware culture)

Even if we take into accounts the recent attempts that have been made to associate new archaeological sites in Sanauli and the OCP sites to the epic period, even then it would be 2000 BCE at the earliest. Epics describe a society that was reasonably well developed with walled settlements, existence of a functioning state, knowledge of iron metallurgy , primitive coinage system. All the archaeological evidence for such a society in Gangetic India is not older than 1300 BCE.
 
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S. A. T. A said:
I wont dispute the astronomical data in the epic literature, however any early date for the ealy puranas, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, does not appear to have any resonance with the archaeological data. Prof B.B Lal, Independent India's first DG of ASI, carried out a series of excavation , called the Archaeology of Mahabharatha and Ramayana, where he excavated in the sites traditionally associated with the epics like Hastinanapura, Ahichchhatra , Kosambi, Sravasti etc, and was able to detect evidence for settlements only as old as 1200 BCE( the painted grey ware culture)

Even if we take into accounts the recent attempts that have been made to associate new archaeological sites in Sanauli and the OCP sites to the epic period, even then it would be 2000 BCE at the earliest. Epics describe a society that was reasonably well developed with walled settlements, existence of a functioning state, knowledge of iron metallurgy , primitive coinage system. All the archaeological evidence for such a society in Gangetic India is not older than 1300 BCE.
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I wouldn't lay much emphasis on the epics or the Puranas as a lot of them have latter day interpolations. The original kernel or core of the story seems to have been embellished considerably over a vast period of time with many variations occuring in local dialects across regions & countries best exemplified by the Ramayana.

To resonate @S. A. T. A 's views, the recent discoveries merely serve as a shot in the arm for the AIT/AMT as they've always claimed the AIT / AMT to have occured around 1500-2000 BCE. All this recent discovery does is reinforce their theory . However, the Harward genetic school of thought as propounded by David Reich will have some soul searching and explanation to do. @STEPHEN COHEN @vstol Jockey
 
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