Off-Topic Chit-Chat

Once again you are misreading it. I am saying that South Indians are the original Indians/Aryans and they mixed with people from Central Asia and Iran much later in the history than what has been claimed. The people who came from outside to mix were also originally from India and they brought these new genes to India from other places. The people fo North India and south India are same group of people. The south Indians have less mixing of foreign genes compared to North Indians but they are same genes. You will be shocked to know that Jatts of North India and Nairs of Kerala have same genes and ancestory. The word Aryan has been used in many vedas including Rig veda and we know for sure that vedas existed much before the dates of Rakhigarhi.

Well you are right that, if we extend the argument made by the findings at Rakhigarhi, that IVC was predominantly a society made up of Dravidian speaking people whose present related group are settled in very south of India. The argument the migration school will make is this:

a) That it strengthens the old argument that north India was predominantly settled by Dravidian speaking people. Who were later pushed south by an Indo-Aryan speaking population. The presence of Dravidian substratum in the early rig vedic Sanskrit is cited as the evidence of this early interaction( but a subsequent isolation)

b)The evidence for the above argument is that the present predominantly Indo-Aryan speaking population has genetic affinity with populations in the steppes and the Europe, but this genetic affinity is not shared by the predominantly Dravidian speaking populations in south India. If the Indo-Aryan speakers and Dravidian speakers were once from a common stock, then the Dravidian speakers would have shared genetic traits with the Europeans and the steppe people like the Indo-Aryan speakers do. So the argument is Indo-Aryans are an intruding group, while the Dravidian speakers were, relatively speaking, indigenous.

P:S - Nair affinities with north indian social groups is not very surprising, considering that there is a popular theory that they were one of the groups, along with the Namboodiri Brahmins , who migrated from Ganga basin to the Tulu speaking areas in Canara areas in Karnataka and later moved into proper Kerala. Even if they as a social group was indigenous to Kerala, their intense Marital relationship with the Namboodiris in the historical period, would have skewed the genetic affinities wiuth the intruding groups from the north.
 
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I wouldn't lay much emphasis on the epics or the Puranas as a lot of them have latter day interpolations. The original kernel or core of the story seems to have been embellished considerably over a vast period of time with many variations occuring in local dialects across regions & countries best exemplified by the Ramayana.

To resonate @S. A. T. A 's views, the recent discoveries merely serve as a shot in the arm for the AIT/AMT as they've always claimed the AIT / AMT to have occured around 1500-2000 BCE. All this recent discovery does is reinforce their theory . However, the Harward genetic school of thought as propounded by David Reich will have some soul searching and explanation to do. @STEPHEN COHEN @vstol Jockey

True we cannot take textual tradition at their face value, esp when data is inconsistent with the chronology. However when textual data seems to find some resonance with archaeological findings, then things do get interesting. One such interesting study came as a result of Prof Lal's excavation in the Mahabharata sites. In his excavation at Hastinapura he found evidence for extensive flooding at the site in late habitation period and its complete abandonment . Further in his excavation at Kausambi, Lal found that the Pottery ware similar to the one found in Hastinapura were turning up in the Kausambi deposits. Prof Lal recalls that in the early Puranas( Matsya and Vishnu) it is mentioned that in the reign of successors of Parikshit, Hastinapura, the capital city of the kurus , was flooded by the Ganga and as a result the people moved to Kousambi.

Regarding the genetic finding , the Harvard group has some explaining to do. It is strange that the Harvard group led by Dr Reich is also associated with this finding, but this finding is in complete contradicion to their 2018 report on the possible ancestry of the ANI, who they found out were associated with ancient west eurasian farmers and south Asian hunter gatherers. How can this possibly be. This is why it is important to have more samples and have more teams studying the samples.
 
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True we cannot take textual tradition at their face value, esp when data is inconsistent with the chronology. However when textual data seems to find some resonance with archaeological findings, then things do get interesting. One such interesting study came as a result of Prof Lal's excavation in the Mahabharata sites. In his excavation at Hastinapura he found evidence for extensive flooding at the site in late habitation period and its complete abandonment . Further in his excavation at Kausambi, Lal found that the Pottery ware similar to the one found in Hastinapura were turning up in the Kausambi deposits. Prof Lal recalls that in the early Puranas( Matsya and Vishnu) it is mentioned that in the reign of successors of Parikshit, Hastinapura, the capital city of the kurus , was flooded by the Ganga and as a result the people moved to Kousambi.

Regarding the genetic finding , the Harvard group has some explaining to do. It is strange that the Harvard group led by Dr Reich is also associated with this finding, but this finding is in complete contradicion to their 2018 report on the possible ancestry of the ANI, who they found out were associated with ancient west eurasian farmers and south Asian hunter gatherers. How can this possibly be. This is why it is important to have more samples and have more teams studying the samples.
I have explained it manytimes over and let me make it clear once again. The date of Rakhigarhi predates the date as mentioned by modern historians or Rig veda. As per them Vedas have been written in 1500-2000BC and therefore they came after Rakhigarhi. Now let us assume it to be true for a moment. We have nearly perfect history available from the time of Buddha till about 8th century AD. We have parts of history missing between 8th century till 12th century AD and again we have full record available after that till date.
The Rakhigarhi people were completely indian People. So everyone till than was either Aryan or Dravidian as you may like to call those original Indians. I will call them Bharatas.
The roots of the word Dravid | Sulekha Creative Inside Outside - Home And Garden Contest
These Bharatas had existed even in the times of Mahabharata and Lord Rama and also later. If we go by the dates of vedas as given by modern historians, you need to explain the finding of a chariot with horses said to be from1800BC in Meerut recently. As I had maintained, these Bharatas mixed in North with civilizations which were further North and west and the south part of India is a peninsula. the land routes to north India allowed mixing of people with north Indians resulting in the introduction of genes from those people. one of the major points about DNA analysis which you and all other historians have agreed to is that mitochondrial DNA of so called ANI & ASI is same. How is that possible? It can be possible only when we say that instead of an invasion, it was intermixing which took place over a period of time and not overnight as happens in invasions. The children born of the wedlock between the children born of a foreign father and Indian mother continued to marry Indian women. The Rakhigarhi DNA has proven that Bharatas had no connection with either steppes people or anatolians or Iranians. If it was so, than how do we explain presence of Indo-European languages and most of them having sanskrit as the root language? This can happen only if these Bharatas had migrated out of India to those territories, proving my out of India migration. I had always relied on linguistic and humen population migrations as a basis to explain my theory. Just the way a river driesup at its end and becomes biggest in size midway thru its length, similarly, when you go out of India, you find north India having maximum footprint of Bharatas DNA and as you go further north and west, it starts to dry out and thin out. This explain why South India has remained mainly Bharatas and why we have mixed population in North. I still maintain that south Indians are the original Bharatas/Aryans and North Indians are a mixture but predominently Bharatas and we have no such north south divide in terms of civilization and people. You will be shocked to know that modern day Keralites fought on the side of Pandavas and Tamils fought on the side of Kauravas in Kurukshetra with each of them providing one akshauni sena. The Tamil-Malayali divide is that ancient. And now we see Arab DNA in Kerala also due to mixing with Arab traders. What would you call it? Arabian Invasion or into India Migration or intermixing? I hope you have heard about Balochis and also Yazidis, They too have south Indian DNA and speak similar language. Errr, Indian/Bharatas DNA and language. Now please do not brand them as Dravidian for God's Sake and for my sensibility.
 
I have explained it manytimes over and let me make it clear once again. The date of Rakhigarhi predates the date as mentioned by modern historians or Rig veda. As per them Vedas have been written in 1500-2000BC and therefore they came after Rakhigarhi. Now let us assume it to be true for a moment. We have nearly perfect history available from the time of Buddha till about 8th century AD. We have parts of history missing between 8th century till 12th century AD and again we have full record available after that till date.
The Rakhigarhi people were completely indian People. So everyone till than was either Aryan or Dravidian as you may like to call those original Indians. I will call them Bharatas.
The roots of the word Dravid | Sulekha Creative Inside Outside - Home And Garden Contest
These Bharatas had existed even in the times of Mahabharata and Lord Rama and also later. If we go by the dates of vedas as given by modern historians, you need to explain the finding of a chariot with horses said to be from1800BC in Meerut recently. As I had maintained, these Bharatas mixed in North with civilizations which were further North and west and the south part of India is a peninsula. the land routes to north India allowed mixing of people with north Indians resulting in the introduction of genes from those people. one of the major points about DNA analysis which you and all other historians have agreed to is that mitochondrial DNA of so called ANI & ASI is same. How is that possible? It can be possible only when we say that instead of an invasion, it was intermixing which took place over a period of time and not overnight as happens in invasions. The children born of the wedlock between the children born of a foreign father and Indian mother continued to marry Indian women. The Rakhigarhi DNA has proven that Bharatas had no connection with either steppes people or anatolians or Iranians. If it was so, than how do we explain presence of Indo-European languages and most of them having sanskrit as the root language? This can happen only if these Bharatas had migrated out of India to those territories, proving my out of India migration. I had always relied on linguistic and humen population migrations as a basis to explain my theory. Just the way a river driesup at its end and becomes biggest in size midway thru its length, similarly, when you go out of India, you find north India having maximum footprint of Bharatas DNA and as you go further north and west, it starts to dry out and thin out. This explain why South India has remained mainly Bharatas and why we have mixed population in North. I still maintain that south Indians are the original Bharatas/Aryans and North Indians are a mixture but predominently Bharatas and we have no such north south divide in terms of civilization and people. You will be shocked to know that modern day Keralites fought on the side of Pandavas and Tamils fought on the side of Kauravas in Kurukshetra with each of them providing one akshauni sena. The Tamil-Malayali divide is that ancient. And now we see Arab DNA in Kerala also due to mixing with Arab traders. What would you call it? Arabian Invasion or into India Migration or intermixing? I hope you have heard about Balochis and also Yazidis, They too have south Indian DNA and speak similar language. Errr, Indian/Bharatas DNA and language. Now please do not brand them as Dravidian for God's Sake and for my sensibility.


You are right to the extent that the Rakhigarhi aDNA findings have no bearing on the question of the invasion/migration of Indo-Aryan speakers into india. Like @ _Anonymous_ has stated it only gives filip to their model. I also agree that the IVC people, in the most likely scenario, may have either been dravidian speaking or Indo-Aryan speaking people. At the moment we don't have any definitive proof on the language of the IVC, until we have deciphered the Harappan script. Archaeology cannot also prove the language. However the genetic evidence , as cited in tis study, indicates that the Harappan people may be closely related to a Dravidian speaking tribe in south India. This is actual facts stand.

However some of your other claims are contentious. let me lay them out.

a) I may be wrong, but you appear to conflate the Bharatas of the Puru clan mentioned in the Rgveda to the social groups that the geneticists are talking about. This is a confusion on your part or mine.

b) Again you are a making general observation regarding Aryans and Dravidians. Historians and scholars generally understand Aryans as a set of people who spoke an Indo-Aryan or generally any indo-european languages and Dravidians as a group that spoke any Dravidian group of languages. If you say Aryans and dravidians were the same, you have to prove that the language grou[p are the same or at least emerged from common linguistic group. No serious scholarship, whether they are for migration or indigenous, claim that the Indo-Aryan and Dravidian groups are the same or had a common origin.

c) Regarding the genetic data, i think we need to wait for the full report. Now the entire premise of the ANI & ASI has been called into question and we don't know, beyond the earlier claim of the Rakhigarhi aDNA's affinity to the Dravidian speaking Irula tribe of south India. I have never placed much premium on genetic data being able to resolve ancient archaeological mysteries. So at this moment any argument on gene migration is at best speculation.

d) The Archaeological evidence that you cited, the chariot found at a late Harappan site near Bhagpat, is indeed interesting. However let me add the site only appears to have the remains of a chariot or a cart and no biological remains have been associated with the site. You may be aware that the migrationist school has already associated this find with that of earlier Sanauli cemetery(late Harappan grave yard where grave goods included several martial equipment like Swords, Arrow heads, axes etc ) The date provided for the site clearly places it in the post mature Harappan phase of NW India , which is precisely the time when the , according to the AMT model, the Indo-Aryans entered India.
 
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a) I may be wrong, but you appear to conflate the Bharatas of the Puru clan mentioned in the Rgveda to the social groups that the geneticists are talking about. This is a confusion on your part or mine.

I had clearly stated that I HAVE chosen to call them Bharatas. I am not attaching any history to it. I am happy to even call them original Indians but not Dravidians. This word dravidian came into being as a denominator of group of people by an european historian in 19th century. The word Dravid has very clear meaning as I explained from the words of Adi Shankara. If you want you can call them Sangam people. I have no problem as long as you do not attach any foreign link to them.

b) Again you are a making general observation regarding Aryans and Dravidians. Historians and scholars generally understand Aryans as a set of people who spoke an Indo-Aryan or generally any indo-european languages and Dravidians as a group that spoke any Dravidian group of languages. If you say Aryans and dravidians were the same, you have to prove that the language grou[p are the same or at least emerged from common linguistic group. No serious scholarship, whether they are for migration or indigenous, claim that the Indo-Aryan and Dravidian groups are the same or had a common origin.

Sorry sir. Germans usurped this Aryan word and this word does not find mention in any other civilization except Indian vedas and Upanishads. Nazis used this word to create an assumed group of superior people while all it meant was people of higher status in their respective society. This story about Aryan gene is also as fake as the AIT. There is no so called Aryan Gene.

c) Regarding the genetic data, i think we need to wait for the full report. Now the entire premise of the ANI & ASI has been called into question and we don't know, beyond the earlier claim of the Rakhigarhi aDNA's affinity to the Dravidian speaking Irula tribe of south India. I have never placed much premium on genetic data being able to resolve ancient archaeological mysteries. So at this moment any argument on gene migration is at best speculation.

I have repeatedly posted here data from multiple sources to support my theory. The problem is that while we accept anon existant Aryan Gene, we are not ready to accept what is written in our own ancient litrature. Tamil Sangam is a very rich source and marxist and commie historians supported Britishers in creating this north-south divide in India by supressing Sangam litrature and connecting it with Vedas and Puranas, They did it on purpose. I have read them all and I know that I am a Tamilian or a Malayali living in North India for thousands of years. I meant my family and my lineage.

d) The Archaeological evidence that you cited, the chariot found at a late Harappan site near Bhagpat, is indeed interesting. However let me add the site only appears to have the remains of a chariot or a cart and no biological remains have been associated with the site. You may be aware that the migrationist school has already associated this find with that of earlier Sanauli cemetery(late Harappan grave yard where grave goods included several martial equipment like Swords, Arrow heads, axes etc ) The date provided for the site clearly places it in the post mature Harappan phase of NW India , which is precisely the time when the , according to the AMT model, the Indo-Aryans entered India.
Can anyone dispute Lord Krishna and Dwarka? Let us forget that Lord Rama was a creation of litrature. There were chariots and horses even in his times. We find mention of Kambhoj and Ashwaganas now called Afghans in the times of Lord Rama also. Every historian has accepted that Mahabharata war did take place though they have disagreed on its dates but they all agree it took place in an era before 2000BC. Now we have this chariot emerging from under ground and in the same place where we had Hastinapur and Kaushambhi.
I like those who use brain to find the truth but using brain to destroy the truth is an act like Ravana and Duryodhana.
 
I had clearly stated that I HAVE chosen to call them Bharatas. I am not attaching any history to it. I am happy to even call them original Indians but not Dravidians. This word dravidian came into being as a denominator of group of people by an european historian in 19th century. The word Dravid has very clear meaning as I explained from the words of Adi Shankara. If you want you can call them Sangam people. I have no problem as long as you do not attach any foreign link to them.



Sorry sir. Germans usurped this Aryan word and this word does not find mention in any other civilization except Indian vedas and Upanishads. Nazis used this word to create an assumed group of superior people while all it meant was people of higher status in their respective society. This story about Aryan gene is also as fake as the AIT. There is no so called Aryan Gene.



I have repeatedly posted here data from multiple sources to support my theory. The problem is that while we accept anon existant Aryan Gene, we are not ready to accept what is written in our own ancient litrature. Tamil Sangam is a very rich source and marxist and commie historians supported Britishers in creating this north-south divide in India by supressing Sangam litrature and connecting it with Vedas and Puranas, They did it on purpose. I have read them all and I know that I am a Tamilian or a Malayali living in North India for thousands of years. I meant my family and my lineage.


Can anyone dispute Lord Krishna and Dwarka? Let us forget that Lord Rama was a creation of litrature. There were chariots and horses even in his times. We find mention of Kambhoj and Ashwaganas now called Afghans in the times of Lord Rama also. Every historian has accepted that Mahabharata war did take place though they have disagreed on its dates but they all agree it took place in an era before 2000BC. Now we have this chariot emerging from under ground and in the same place where we had Hastinapur and Kaushambhi.
I like those who use brain to find the truth but using brain to destroy the truth is an act like Ravana and Duryodhana.

Thanks for clarifying the part about the Bharatas and yes it would be incorrect to state original Indians were Dravidian ( or Indo-Aryans or Australoasiatics like the Munda speakers.) Suffice to say Dravidians were an ancient Indian group. However i have to disagree on the part about Aryan and Dravidians being the same. What ever the labels, the original intent was to designate a two group of mutually exclusive language systems( and possibly mutually exclusive group of speakers of those languages) and it is well established that they did not emerge from a common source. It is quite possible that they may have emerged in the same Indian subcontinent, but they did merge and evolve separately.

About the discovery of the remains of the ancient chariots, your argument is more than similar to the argument of the AMT school. They too say these chariots are the evidence of Aryan migration into india, since this was found in a site which is considered post Harappan( a period when the AMT school argues Aryans entered india) and not in the Mature Harappan phase( which would have upset the AMT model). Im assuming you are aware of the chronology for the IVC period.
 
Thanks for clarifying the part about the Bharatas and yes it would be incorrect to state original Indians were Dravidian ( or Indo-Aryans or Australoasiatics like the Munda speakers.) Suffice to say Dravidians were an ancient Indian group. However i have to disagree on the part about Aryan and Dravidians being the same. What ever the labels, the original intent was to designate a two group of mutually exclusive language systems( and possibly mutually exclusive group of speakers of those languages) and it is well established that they did not emerge from a common source. It is quite possible that they may have emerged in the same Indian subcontinent, but they did merge and evolve separately.

About the discovery of the remains of the ancient chariots, your argument is more than similar to the argument of the AMT school. They too say these chariots are the evidence of Aryan migration into india, since this was found in a site which is considered post Harappan( a period when the AMT school argues Aryans entered india) and not in the Mature Harappan phase( which would have upset the AMT model). Im assuming you are aware of the chronology for the IVC period.
Do you know how Dronacharya got his name? Dronam means an earthern pot in Tamil. Drona means a person born of an earthern pot. I say that Tamil is the language from which Sanskrit emerged. Largest number of words in our Puranas and Vedas have tamil origin or words. Tamil is that Prakrit language from which sanskrit emerged. Tamil is the mother of all our languages.
The problem is that you are hung on two different groups within ancient India while I am saying that we are one group. Now genetics has shown us to be one group of people. Have you not seen the clay toys of chariots from Harrappa? Why and how do you infer that Harrapans were not driving chariots? The use of Chariots in IVC has never been questioned. People questioned use of horses as they said that horses came from central asia while Harrappans used donkies and bulls only. This lack of finding of horses in IVC was used to propagate the theory of AIT. But we have Sangam litrature which has detailed use of horses and elephants. Something very remarkable however is that there is no mention of elephants in the times of Lord Rama but they were used for war in Mahabharata times and later Chola and Pandyas used them extensively.
 
Do you know how Dronacharya got his name? Dronam means an earthern pot in Tamil. Drona means a person born of an earthern pot. I say that Tamil is the language from which Sanskrit emerged. Largest number of words in our Puranas and Vedas have tamil origin or words. Tamil is that Prakrit language from which sanskrit emerged. Tamil is the mother of all our languages.
The problem is that you are hung on two different groups within ancient India while I am saying that we are one group. Now genetics has shown us to be one group of people. Have you not seen the clay toys of chariots from Harrappa? Why and how do you infer that Harrapans were not driving chariots? The use of Chariots in IVC has never been questioned. People questioned use of horses as they said that horses came from central asia while Harrappans used donkies and bulls only. This lack of finding of horses in IVC was used to propagate the theory of AIT. But we have Sangam litrature which has detailed use of horses and elephants. Something very remarkable however is that there is no mention of elephants in the times of Lord Rama but they were used for war in Mahabharata times and later Chola and Pandyas used them extensively.

My dear friend i dont know where this patronizing tone into your argument is coming from. I'm not some Dravidian nationalist who is swayed by the claims like Dravidian is the oldest language of the world or is the mother of all languages. I'm a dravidian speaker, but im happy to accept and acknowledge the scientific analysis of the history and evolution of the Dravidian group of languages. Although i still dont understand the context of some the points mentioned in your posts, but ill try to respond.

a) In all my 20 years since i have been studying the various scholarship on Indian history, particularly its languages, I'm yet to come across any serious scholars, Dravidian or Indo-Aryan, who claim Dravidian is the same as sankrit, Prakrit or any other Indo-Aryan group of languages. If you are aware of any such scholarship, which im assuming is the source of your claims, please let me know about those works so in can personally evaluate them. As far i know there are none. We cannot invent an entirely new school of history to fit our argument.

b) According to the best of my knowledge the oldest literary text of the sangam period is the Tolkappiyam. Now the Tolkappiyam has been dated at the earliest to be from 400-300 BCE. In Indian history this would be the early classical period. The post rg vedic period has already begun by this time, the epics and some of the puranas have already been, for the good parts composed. What is mentioned in Tolkappitam or Mahabharatha would not have any bearing on the archaeological finds , or lack of, from the Bronze age 1500 years earlier to this period.

c) That IVC people may have used Bull driven carts is a given,what we don't have evidence for is the use of domesticated horses during the mature phase of the IVC. If we could find significant presence of domesticated horse in mature IVC levels it would be a significant development. The find at Bhagpat, like i mentioned earlier, is from a Late Harappan period, a period where historians and archaeologists were already expecting to find horse remains.
 
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Meanwhile Chandra Bose who helped Japan and Hitler try invade India is a hero with an island named after him.
 
Meanwhile Chandra Bose who helped Japan and Hitler try invade India is a hero with an island named after him.
Like de Valera & Michael Collins or maybe Gerry Adams & McGuinness. This isn't about them. Nor is this thread.Try & come up with an answer or don't post.


This is about the Archbishop of Canterbury atoning for the sins of his forefathers. Would you rather he go to Dublin in a similar act of contriteness.
 
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