Off-Topic Chit-Chat

Sure. Call us Congressis.

Call us liberals.

Cal us seculars.

I personally would be least offended by any of these. I am a liberal (in most things not directly linked to my family) and a secular. I'm not a Congressi (really) but I wil vote for the Congress so that the BJP does not get my vote. But I won't sweat it if you call me a Congressi either. I do believe in the Congress and what it has done for our nation.

But don't be kiddish and say

Khangressi

Libtard

Sikular

Hope you get my point.

Cheers, Doc

Honestly though, what people like you on the left don't realize is, you cannot condescend or insult your way towards any sort of understanding. Hillary also called Trump supporters a "basket of deplorables" on the campaign trail, go look what happened to her. People simply began showing up in hats and t-shirts saying "Proud to be Deplorable," and snatched away a Presidency that Hillary thought she was entitled to by birth.

So you go ahead and keep calling us Sanghis if you want, just like the Left around the globe, you too are digging your own ideological and political graves.
 
But it's the second set of words that actually apply to the group that you have allied yourself with. You people aren't liberal or tolerant in the true sense of the word, you people are not secular in the true sense of the word; so if the ideological stream/group you belong to has decided to *censored*ize things like liberalism and secularism in practice, then why should we not use *censored*ized versions of those words to refer to them?

And if you think those terms are offensive, then we're all adults here, do you think we don't know the implied connotations of the word "sanghi" when you use it?

My point is simple.

There is nothing called a libtard, a sikular, a khangressi.

These are word plays which insinuate something derogatory and meant to offend.

A sanghi or a commie or a congressi or a liberal or a secular are all real terms. Real people.

At most you can say I am not one. And take offense at being called one.

The word plays are just meant to offend. There is nothing realistic about them.

Cheers, Doc
 
My point is simple.

There is nothing called a libtard, a sikular, a khangressi.

These are word plays which insinuate something derogatory and meant to offend.

A sanghi or a commie or a congressi or a liberal or a secular are all real terms. Real people.

At most you can say I am not one. And take offense at being called one.

The word plays are just meant to offend. There is nothing realistic about them.

Cheers, Doc

Sure there are, the Indian left is full of them. You are on an ideological side which includes plenty of Islamists (amongst other fifth columnists, such as Communists/Marxists), like it or not, these are your ideological bedfellows if you are voting Congress; do you want to try explaining to me from what angle they are secular, tolerant or liberal?
 
Honestly though, what people like you on the left don't realize is, you cannot condescend or insult your way towards any sort of understanding. Hillary also called Trump supporters a "basket of deplorables" on the campaign trail, go look what happened to her. People simply began showing up in hats and t-shirts saying "Proud to be Deplorable," and snatched away a Presidency that Hillary thought she was entitled to by birth.

So you go ahead and keep calling us Sanghis if you want, just like the Left around the globe, you too are digging your own ideological and political graves.

I had this discussion just a few hours before lunch today with an American lawyer.

I asked him "So ___ , tell me. If all of you are so anti Trump (EVERY American I have met abuses him), and ALL of you are so disgusted by him and what he does, and ALL of you roll your eyes and let out these long sighs, so then WHO voted for him?"

The answer lies in the fact that all animals are creatures of the herd.

We have herded here as Indians away from PDF.

But within that herd, once there, as in "India" (this being the virtual version), we will proceed to herd once more into our own sub herds.

Cheers, Doc
 
Sure there are, the Indian left is full of them. You are on an ideological side which includes plenty of Islamists (amongst other fifth columnists, such as Communists/Marxists), like it or not, these are your ideological bedfellows if you are voting Congress; do you want to try explaining to me from what angle they are secular, tolerant or liberal?

Sure.

Soon as you tel me how your side is secular, tolerant and liberal.

Remember, India is secular because Hindus are secular.

But those who follow the ideology of the sangh are neither secular nor tolerant nor liberal.

So look into a mirror first.

As I said before. You really are saffron Islamists. Just that you call Allah as Bhagwan.

Cheers, Doc
 
Sure.

Soon as you tel me how your side is secular, tolerant and liberal.

Remember, India is secular because Hindus are secular.

But those who follow the ideology of the sangh are neither secular nor tolerant nor liberal.

So look into a mirror first.

As I said before. You really are saffron Islamists. Just that you call Allah as Bhagwan.

Cheers, Doc

We had this discussion yesterday - the mainstream right has nothing against those Muslims who accept that they are simply converted Hindus, no different in any other way from the rest of us, and who are ready to live in peace and understanding with us. The kind that place their Indian identity first, rather than being Muslims above all else the way most of the world's Muslims are. The kind that are happy to practice the Indian culture which they have been born into, rather than artificially trying to be "Arab-lites."

Our fight is with the Islamists. And we have a fringe of our own whose goals are more extreme than that, but every ideological group that was ever created has a fringe, the key is that unlike the left, we haven't engaged in full scale capitulation to our fringe.

And as I have said before, if we were saffron Islamists, you wouldn't be at liberty to spout this sort of bullshit. The sheer amount of abuse and vitriol that the right, and its leaders like Modi deal with is enough proof of our tolerance.

As for tolerance, liberalism and secularism; continue allying yourself with Islamists who are ideological affiliates of the people who drove Parsis out of Iran. Keep voting for the Congress Party which is hands down responsible for the biggest and worst communal riots, as well as pogroms, throughout the country. It wasn't the BJP that killed thousands of Sikhs after all.
 
We had this discussion yesterday - the mainstream right has nothing against those Muslims who accept that they are simply converted Hindus, no different in any other way from the rest of us, and who are ready to live in peace and understanding with us. The kind that place their Indian identity first, rather than being Muslims above all else the way most of the world's Muslims are. The kind that are happy to practice the Indian culture which they have been born into, rather than artificially trying to be "Arab-lites."

Our fight is with the Islamists. And we have a fringe of our own whose goals are more extreme than that, but every ideological group that was ever created has a fringe, the key is that unlike the left, we haven't engaged in full scale capitulation to our fringe.

And as I have said before, if we were saffron Islamists, you wouldn't be at liberty to spout this sort of bullshit. The sheer amount of abuse and vitriol that the right, and its leaders like Modi deal with is enough proof of our tolerance.

As for tolerance, liberalism and secularism; continue allying yourself with Islamists who are ideological affiliates of the people who drove Parsis out of Iran. Keep voting for the Congress Party which is hands down responsible for the biggest and worst communal riots, as well as pogroms, throughout the country. It wasn't the BJP that killed thousands of Sikhs after all.

Our Muslims live in a secular India. Which means that they are free to see themselves as whatever they wish to see themselves. The state has no roll to play in that. They get equal rights as you do. Don't like that? Change the Constitution of India.

Muslim Indians are Hindu converts. No two ways about that.

My people have experienced the majority turning on the minority. We lost our land due to that. Till very recently Irani Zoroastrians could not even worship openly as they do today.

Now look at the above two statements and figure out where the Parsi community stand.

If the Congress killed the Sikhs (they did), then the BJP killed Muslims. The difference is that Sikhs were not killed after the Khalistan movement ended. But Muslims are still being killed.

Forget Muslims.

Christians are getting killed.

And now, Parsis are getting killed.

So it is clear that the BJP is anti minority. And as these things generally tend to morph, they will soon turn inwards.

North vs South.

Caste and class wars.

It is a matter of time.

Time that India does not have. Should not give.

Cheers, Doc
 
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Our Muslims live in a secular India. Which means that they are free to see themselves as whatever they wish to see themselves. The state has no roll to play in that. They get equal rights as you do. Don't like that? Change the Constitution of India.

Muslim Indians are Hindu converts. No two ways about that.

My people have experienced the majority turning on the minority. We lost our land due to that. Till very recently Irani Zoroastrians could not even worship openly as they do today.

Now look at the above two statements and figure out where the Parsi community stand.

If the Congress killed the Sikhs (they did), then the BJP killed Muslims. The difference is that Sikhs were not killed after the Khalistan movement ended. But Muslims are still being killed.

Forget Muslims.

Christians are getting killed.

And now, Parsis are getting killed.

So it is clear that the BJP is anti minority. And as these things generally tend to morph, they will soon turn inwards.

North vs South.

Caste and class wars.

It is a matter of time.

Time that India does not have. Should not give.

Cheers, Doc

If they're free to see themselves however they want, and that entails seeing themselves as not tied to this land and its people, and as a result, more loyal to Islam and Islamism than to India; then keep in mind that we are also free to see them how we want.

And the problem with your historical examples, is that they are false parallels. Your people were driven out by the very kind of people that you are busy allying yourself with. It's not about a majority turning on the minority in this case, it's about cleaning house from fifth columnists who do not see themselves as Indians and hence have no allegiance to or love for India, and actively work against the country and their fellow citizens who have historically shown them plenty of tolerance even when they shouldn't have - and as I have mentioned countless times, that does not cover all 200 million of the community.

Your point comparing the riot histories of Congress and BJP is so far off base, I'm honestly not even gonna bother with it (anyone not deeply ideologically aligned to the left will clearly see it for the false equivalence that it is). And I repeat, India's largest organized pogroms in its history as a nation have occurred under Congress rule and direction - this is an unarguable fact. So enjoy that secularism.

As for your final point, if any party or side has been responsible for dividing people along North-South lines or class/caste lines, it's the Congress and assorted leftist parties that it chooses to do business with. Just like yesterday, you are fear mongering and predicting all sorts of unlikely doomsday scenarios, but to indulge your scenario for a minute, if such things happen, it won't be the BJP or RSS responsible for them; I'll bet you anything you want about that.
 
If they're free to see themselves however they want, and that entails seeing themselves as not tied to this land and its people, and as a result, more loyal to Islam and Islamism than to India; then keep in mind that we are also free to see them how we want.

The issue here is not just society, but the state. And the state clearly remaining quiet while sections of society feel entitled, emboldened, and act out their bigotry. Without fear of a clampdown.

These are new phenomena in India. I have personally never seen such an openly partisan government. Though one could argue that we have always had a polarized populace, some times more than others.

And the problem with your historical examples, is that they are false parallels. Your people were driven out by the very kind of people that you are busy allying yourself with. It's not about a majority turning on the minority in this case, it's about cleaning house from fifth columnists who do not see themselves as Indians and hence have no allegiance to or love for India, and actively work against the country and their fellow citizens who have historically shown them plenty of tolerance even when they shouldn't have - and as I have mentioned countless times, that does not cover all 200 million of the community.

There is nothing in the past 4 years to show the country that the leadership is doing the above in a targeted manner. Rather what we are seeing is lawlessness and mobs and violent incidents across the country. With zero pushback. And a Maun Modi (M&M).

Your point comparing the riot histories of Congress and BJP is so far off base, I'm honestly not even gonna bother with it (anyone not deeply ideologically aligned to the left will clearly see it for the false equivalence that it is). And I repeat, India's largest organized pogroms in its history as a nation have occurred under Congress rule and direction - this is an unarguable fact. So enjoy that secularism.

See above. India has never seen a government that is so openly anti a large community of Indians.

The Congress killed Sikhs when their leader was gunned down. The BJP killed Muslims when Hindus were burnt.

Why is the BJP still killing Muslims and Christians. Why are Parsis being killed? What have they done?

As for your final point, if any party or side has been responsible for dividing people along North-South lines or class/caste lines, it's the Congress and assorted leftist parties that it chooses to do business with. Just like yesterday, you are fear mongering and predicting all sorts of unlikely doomsday scenarios, but to indulge your scenario for a minute, if such things happen, it won't be the BJP or RSS responsible for them; I'll bet you anything you want about that.

The BJP is fundamentally, ideologically and genetically anti South.

They are also anti Dalit.

That is a very potent combination.

When the war begins, the Muslims will be nowhere in the picture.

It will be Hindu on Hindu. And as the Lion of Rajputana, we both know which side you will be on. Just like your ancestors were. Groomed by the Brahmins.

Cheers, Doc
 
The BJP is fundamentally, ideologically and genetically anti South.

They are also anti Dalit.

That is a very potent combination.

When the war begins, the Muslims will be nowhere in the picture.

It will be Hindu on Hindu. And as the Lion of Rajputana, we both know which side you will be on. Just like your ancestors were. Groomed by the Brahmins.

Since we've been told not to argue here, I'll leave the argument - but the part I have quoted is absolute hogwash, and I strongly object to that, as well as your attempt to create an imaginary future conflict and even decide which side I'll be contesting from when it occurs.
 
Since we've been told not to argue here, I'll leave the argument - but the part I have quoted is absolute hogwash, and I strongly object to that, as well as your attempt to create an imaginary future conflict and even decide which side I'll be contesting from when it occurs.

Let's take it to Chit Chat.

If you feel like you have something to add. Besides your strong protest.

Cheers, Doc
 
The issue here is not just society, but the state. And the state clearly remaining quiet while sections of society feel entitled, emboldened, and act out their bigotry. Without fear of a clampdown.

These are new phenomena in India. I have personally never seen such an openly partisan government. Though one could argue that we have always had a polarized populace, some times more than others.

It's unbelievably naive to act as if this hasn't always been the case, what's giving you, and your ideological allies on the left, heartburn, is that the roles in this setup remained the same, but the communities taking on those specific roles were flipped. And this is just the beginning.


There is nothing in the past 4 years to show the country that the leadership is doing the above in a targeted manner. Rather what we are seeing is lawlessness and mobs and violent incidents across the country. With zero pushback. And a Maun Modi (M&M).

Don't worry, the shift is well underway, and no matter what you or GND think or say on these threads, the BJP is here to stay for a long, long time.

See above. India has never seen a government that is so openly anti a large community of Indians.

The Congress killed Sikhs when their leader was gunned down. The BJP killed Muslims when Hindus were burnt.

Why is the BJP still killing Muslims and Christians. Why are Parsis being killed? What have they done?

Again, pure nonsense, what's bothering you is that the roles changed. I find it funny because at one point on the last blog you even used to acknowledge the fact that Muslims were allowed to run rampant and engage in dadagiri, I remember reading and agreeing with those posts; I have no clue what suddenly happened that now you get up and claim that India never had a terribly partisan Government before this one. If anything, antisocial elements have far less freedom under this Government than previous UPA + Governments.

Interesting attempt to rationalize the anti-Sikh riots by the way, it's a terrible justification. As for points about continued violence between Hindus and Muslims, we've been over it a million times, because there is a healthy chunk of subcontinental Muslims who do not acknowledge and accept what they are, hence Islam comes first for them, they do not consider themselves Indians nor are they loyal to it, and hence they are antisocial elements and fifth columnists who need to be dealt with.

You're going to have to be more specific about your points on Christians and Parsis.


The BJP is fundamentally, ideologically and genetically anti South.

They are also anti Dalit.

That is a very potent combination.

When the war begins, the Muslims will be nowhere in the picture.

It will be Hindu on Hindu. And as the Lion of Rajputana, we both know which side you will be on. Just like your ancestors were. Groomed by the Brahmins.

Cheers, Doc

As I said already, that point is plain nonsense, and let me reiterate, it is little more than your typical fear mongering/imagination gone wild, except this time you even picked out a role for me to play in your bizarre doomsday scenario. What you are pushing, is little more than Congress/leftist & in this case Dalit/Backward Party (SP, BSP, RJD) and Dravidian Party Propaganda.
 
It's unbelievably naive to act as if this hasn't always been the case, what's giving you, and your ideological allies on the left, heartburn, is that the roles in this setup remained the same, but the communities taking on those specific roles were flipped. And this is just the beginning.

Don't worry, the shift is well underway, and no matter what you or GND think or say on these threads, the BJP is here to stay for a long, long time.

Again, pure nonsense, what's bothering you is that the roles changed. I find it funny because at one point on the last blog you even used to acknowledge the fact that Muslims were allowed to run rampant and engage in dadagiri, I remember reading and agreeing with those posts; I have no clue what suddenly happened that now you get up and claim that India never had a terribly partisan Government before this one. If anything, antisocial elements have far less freedom under this Government than previous UPA + Governments.

Interesting attempt to rationalize the anti-Sikh riots by the way, it's a terrible justification. As for points about continued violence between Hindus and Muslims, we've been over it a million times, because there is a healthy chunk of subcontinental Muslims who do not acknowledge and accept what they are, hence Islam comes first for them, they do not consider themselves Indians nor are they loyal to it, and hence they are antisocial elements and fifth columnists who need to be dealt with.

You're going to have to be more specific about your points on Christians and Parsis.

As I said already, that point is plain nonsense, and let me reiterate, it is little more than your typical fear mongering/imagination gone wild, except this time you even picked out a role for me to play in your bizarre doomsday scenario. What you are pushing, is little more than Congress/leftist & in this case Dalit/Backward Party (SP, BSP, RJD) and Dravidian Party Propaganda.

Random points. I find split answering a post tedious.

Why should a blatantly partisan party not bother a non Hindu?

If a partisan Muslim party were in power, would a non Muslim not be bothered?

There is no place for a religious partisan party in a diverse secular democracy.

A democracy is not majoritarianism. This is something the sangh brigade cannot wrap their head around.

I've told you the facts. Minority Indians are being singled out, targeted and killed. Journalists are being killed. Rationalists are being killed. People who speak up and their views do not match the current dispensation's, they are being killed.

No doubt you will attempt to rationalize each of these with whataboutery, gish goulashing, and equivocalness. The BUT paradigm.

But the fact is that we are seeing these killings. And the eyes and ears of the electorate are not closed.

A government is supposed to clamp down on violence between communities. Not either look away or provide overt and covert support.

The BJP or any other party, can be one thing or the other. Not both depending on the way the wind is moving.

The BJP got elected as a party promising development, and end to corruption, and progress for all.

It delivered nothing. And in fact has proven to be the mirror opposite.

My views on forums are not influenced by social media since I am a dinosaur.

What you read from my pen, flows directly from my head, which is fed by my eyes and ears, living and open here in India, among the people, observing and interacting, and an intelligence which I have never been shy to acknowledge as way above average. Both perceived, validated over an academic and professional lifetime, and measured objectively, scientifically.

I may be a dinosaur. But I'm a very sharp observer of human beings and social life. I do not spread myself across twitter feeds. But go deep dive behind people and their defences and facades.

I do not live my life on social media. I am not an internet Hindu or an internet Parsi. I am a physician, with my fingers on the pulse of Indian society.

Cheers, Doc
 
@ManavantraTruti

Who were the chandals?

Mythological only?

Tamil or Malayali? I understand that Malayali itself is a relatively recent branch-out of Tamil?

Cheers, Doc

Technically the child of a Sudra Man and a Brahmin women is called a Chandal. This is because the marriage between the two was forbidden. Thus the child born to them became the outcaste.

This is with respect to VARNA and not Jathi i.e. caste.

Historically King Harishchandra was cursed to become a "Chandal" and was working in the cremation grounds. Someone who eats the meat of a dog is also called a chandal. It later became a name for those who eat dead animals. similarly those who killed brahmins were called Chandals.

In Jathi terms i.e. caste terms, the british classified Namasudras caste of Bengal as Chandal. Even tribals like Nishad's were classified as Chandals by the brits. In 1901 census in Bengal, more than 9 million muslims were classified as Chandals.


I fail to see what Tamil or Malayali has anything to do with this beyond the fact that those who worked in the cremation grounds in the south of India were also known as chandals.
 
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Random points. I find split answering a post tedious.
Truly Random, that's for sure.
Why should a blatantly partisan party not bother a non Hindu?
Because it is overwhelmingly partisan against fifth-columnists, not minorities.
If a partisan Muslim party were in power, would a non Muslim not be bothered?
You seem to specialize in false equivalences. You've done this far too many times, and are far too intelligent not to know what you're doing. So rather than wasting time formulating lengthy, detailed responses, I will now simply start calling out BS where I see it.
There is no place for a religious partisan party in a diverse secular democracy.
Preaching that after supporting Congress and allying yourself with the modern day left which is a combine of Communists/Marxists, and Islamists amongst others, doesn't suit you.
A democracy is not majoritarianism. This is something the sangh brigade cannot wrap their head around.
A democracy is literally majoritarianism. Up until now Congress usually had the majority, and Hindus were fragmented, so instead of being a majority we were treated as a minority; and the Congress had its bloody way with us.
I've told you the facts. Minority Indians are being singled out, targeted and killed. Journalists are being killed. Rationalists are being killed. People who speak up and their views do not match the current dispensation's, they are being killed.
I read enough of this sort of spin in the NYT, you can't fool me.
No doubt you will attempt to rationalize each of these with whataboutery, gish goulashing, and equivocalness. The BUT paradigm.
I have far less that I need to rationalize than you or the Congress Party.
But the fact is that we are seeing these killings. And the eyes and ears of the electorate are not closed.
The electorate which overwhelmingly chose Modi in 2014 even after the fear mongering by your ideological affiliates, and which will continue to pick Modi for the foreseeable future.
A government is supposed to clamp down on violence between communities. Not either look away or provide overt and covert support.
Seriously Doc, stop, this is painful to read from a Congress supporter.
The BJP or any other party, can be one thing or the other. Not both depending on the way the wind is moving.
Doc do you not get tired of being hypocritical? You want Rahul Gandhi as PM, who magically becomes a Janeu Dhaari Hindu and starts furiously visiting temples out of thin air after decades of him and his family's party being anti-Hindu and pandering to/appeasing Muslims; all because it was politically expedient. Seriously, I'm not stupid, cut the shit.
The BJP got elected as a party promising development, and end to corruption, and progress for all. It delivered nothing. And in fact has proven to be the mirror opposite.
Nonsense, once again, the electorate will resoundingly prove you wrong in 2019.
My views on forums are not influenced by social media since I am a dinosaur.

What you read from my pen, flows directly from my head, which is fed by my eyes and ears, living and open here in India, among the people, observing and interacting, and an intelligence which I have never been shy to acknowledge as way above average. Both perceived, validated over an academic and professional lifetime, and measured objectively, scientifically.

I may be a dinosaur. But I'm a very sharp observer of human beings and social life. I do not spread myself across twitter feeds. But go deep dive behind people and their defences and facades.

I do not live my life on social media. I am not an internet Hindu or an internet Parsi. I am a physician, with my fingers on the pulse of Indian society.
That was basically a long ode to yourself, not very different from providing one's self manual relief, if you catch my drift. Congratulations on being a Doctor, I've got plenty in my own family.