Off-Topic Chit-Chat

[Shajida Khan]

@randomradio @STEPHEN COHEN @Ashwin @sid4587 @_Anonymous_
I wanted to explore the soundness of this statue building business as most of you seem to be in favor of this citing jobs and tourism that will be delivered as the states plan to invest close to 9000 cr for these three gigantic statues. So what exactly are the numbers, do we have any estimates of break even period for such investment, is this the best utilization of the state funds?
Take the case of Maharashtra's shivaji statue to honor Shivaji; Actual forts built/rebuilt by Shiviaji Maharaj's own guidance like Pratapgad, Sindhudurg, Raigad, even the pune's Sinhgad and shanivar wada lie in ruined state, all the while we want to built new monuments, When the ones which have ample historical value lie in ruins. Instead of spending money to fix heritage sights which have actual significance,and can surpass tourism value of the made in china monuments, wouldn't it serve the states better to fix it's existing tourism infrastructure.
List of forts in India - Wikipedia


And this is discounting for the fact that state like UP has massive mismanagement, children die in hospitals for lack of oxygen, while the CM appropriates the decision to build a Lord Rama's statue? Isn't there anything else left to do in the state, are all the metrics for development already exhausted in growth that such avenues of investment of tax payer funds need to be undertaken?

Well. Is it too hard to understand?
People want them thats why politicians give it to them.

Of course, some folks will visit these "modern monuments". I mean, if you go into the city square and start biting dogs you will gather a crowd. People like to watch spectacles. But that still makes you a raging mad. May be a somewhat popular one. As someone very wise once said "If the high was worth the pain". Apparently to us (Indians) it is.

Democracy is like a god damn bar with a crooked owner and barkeep to match and we like to order tequila shots after shots. Might have been served better to order a lowball of Jura and walk away with little intoxication ... but noooooo. Its like every day is a god damned friday night in India and we like to go freaken wild -- even though most of us cann't hold our drinks well enough.

 

[_Anonymous_]

@randomradio @STEPHEN COHEN @Ashwin @sid4587 @_Anonymous_
I wanted to explore the soundness of this statue building business as most of you seem to be in favor of this citing jobs and tourism that will be delivered as the states plan to invest close to 9000 cr for these three gigantic statues. So what exactly are the numbers, do we have any estimates of break even period for such investment, is this the best utilization of the state funds?
Take the case of Maharashtra's shivaji statue to honor Shivaji; Actual forts built/rebuilt by Shiviaji Maharaj's own guidance like Pratapgad, Sindhudurg, Raigad, even the pune's Sinhgad and shanivar wada lie in ruined state, all the while we want to built new monuments, When the ones which have ample historical value lie in ruins. Instead of spending money to fix heritage sights which have actual significance,and can surpass tourism value of the made in china monuments, wouldn't it serve the states better to fix it's existing tourism infrastructure.
List of forts in India - Wikipedia


And this is discounting for the fact that state like UP has massive mismanagement, children die in hospitals for lack of oxygen, while the CM appropriates the decision to build a Lord Rama's statue? Isn't there anything else left to do in the state, are all the metrics for development already exhausted in growth that such avenues of investment of tax payer funds need to be undertaken?

No comments. Except every regime builds up their heroes from the past whom they seek to glorify in order to seek acceptance and manifestation into votes.

The template was the history books written and the roads, highways, ports , airports , etc named by you know who.The present GoI is merely taking a leaf out of the past Congress administrations and building up on it.

Terms like "it'd pay for itself "are baniya justifications. Which over a period of time will be true. Just not in the timeline suggested by the state and central governments and their supporters.Much like the very ghost cities of China, which in due course will be occupied.

You ought to realize that we're still a feudal representative democracy in every sense of the word. Ppl still vote their caste when they cast their votes.

The consolidation of the so called Sanatan Votes is happening but is miniscule unlike the primary minority community which votes en bloc. Although this is a different issue, peripheral to the main issue discussed here, but not in the ambit of the discussions here - it's important.

 

[Milspec]

No comments. Except every regime builds up their heroes from the past whom they seek to glorify in order to seek acceptance and manifestation into votes.

The template was the history books written and the roads, highways, ports , airports , etc named by you know who.The present GoI is merely taking a leaf out of the past Congress administrations and building up on it.

Terms like "it'd pay for itself "are baniya justifications. Which over a period of time will be true. Just not in the timeline suggested by the state and central governments and their supporters.Much like the very ghost cities of China, which in due course will be occupied.

You ought to realize that we're still a feudal representative democracy in every sense of the word. Ppl still vote their caste when they cast their votes.

The consolidation of the so called Sanatan Votes is happening but is miniscule unlike the primary minority community which votes en bloc. Although this is a different issue, peripheral to the main issue discussed here, but not in the ambit of the discussions here - it's important.

Well. Is it too hard to understand?

People want them thats why politicians give it to them.



Of course, some folks will visit these "modern monuments". I mean, if you go into the city square and start biting dogs you will gather a crowd. People like to watch spectacles. But that still makes you a raging mad. May be a somewhat popular one. As someone very wise once said "If the high was worth the pain". Apparently to us (Indians) it is.



Democracy is like a god damn bar with a crooked owner and barkeep to match and we like to order tequila shots after shots. Might have been served better to order a lowball of Jura and walk away with little intoxication ... but noooooo. Its like every day is a god damned friday night in India and we like to go freaken wild -- even though most of us cann't hold our drinks well enough.

I am struggling to understand this , people want giant statues? is this the right way to spend 9000 cr of tax payer money. i.e 90000000000 rupees (if I have my zeroes right)

>If it takes about lakh rupees to send 10 kids, complete high school in rural areas, these three state combined could send 90 lakh kids to school free of cost. Or

>9 lakh farmers across these three states can receive 1Lakh rupees as debt assistance to prevent farmer suicides; Or

>9 Lakh small business enterprises could receive 1 lakh rupees as incentive boosting local economy in the area; Or

> 3.75 Lakh two year internships in the PSU's and companies with MOU's with the state governments to improve the employment base in the states or

>90000 Ground water charging reservoirs for a cost of 10 Lakhs avg across the three states which frequently face droughts (and cause farmer suicides)



Have we run out of investment options in Gujarat, Maharashtra and Uttar Pradesh?





I just cannot wrap my head around this statue business, @randomradio

 

[sid4587]

@randomradio @STEPHEN COHEN @Ashwin @sid4587 @_Anonymous_
I wanted to explore the soundness of this statue building business as most of you seem to be in favor of this citing jobs and tourism that will be delivered as the states plan to invest close to 9000 cr for these three gigantic statues. So what exactly are the numbers, do we have any estimates of break even period for such investment, is this the best utilization of the state funds?
Take the case of Maharashtra's shivaji statue to honor Shivaji; Actual forts built/rebuilt by Shiviaji Maharaj's own guidance like Pratapgad, Sindhudurg, Raigad, even the pune's Sinhgad and shanivar wada lie in ruined state, all the while we want to built new monuments, When the ones which have ample historical value lie in ruins. Instead of spending money to fix heritage sights which have actual significance,and can surpass tourism value of the made in china monuments, wouldn't it serve the states better to fix it's existing tourism infrastructure.
List of forts in India - Wikipedia


And this is discounting for the fact that state like UP has massive mismanagement, children die in hospitals for lack of oxygen, while the CM appropriates the decision to build a Lord Rama's statue? Isn't there anything else left to do in the state, are all the metrics for development already exhausted in growth that such avenues of investment of tax payer funds need to be undertaken?

Sir, do you follow news or just read and then forget to see what happens next? The hospital in UP you are talking about have always seen deaths in thousands over the year and no it has reduced to below 200. 2017 Gorakhpur hospital deaths - Wikipedia
50% dip in encephalitis deaths at BRD hospital - Times of India
Japanese encephalitis is the issue which Yogi is raising to various govt (Sp-BSP) and now atleast his efforts are showing drastic results. Coming to the statue of unity, everyday atleast 8000 visitors are coming which is giving around 7 crore direct ticket sale revenue per month, this statue is expected to increase the incoming tourist count to 7.5 crore by 2020 in gujrat, and i feel you are educated enough to understand the impact of 7.5 crore tourist in a state per year. You have every right to hate BJP but choose some wise topics. The books in UP schools which are used to be 500-700 rs each in high school/ intermediate are now like 80-120, pls enquire about it. The condition of police reports, hospitals have drastically changed in UP. ask any school going or college going girl in tier 2 or tier 1 cities of UP and they wl tell you the impact of anti romeo squad.

 

[Milspec]

Sir, do you follow news or just read and then forget to see what happens next? The hospital in UP you are talking about have always seen deaths in thousands over the year and no it has reduced to below 200. 2017 Gorakhpur hospital deaths - Wikipedia
50% dip in encephalitis deaths at BRD hospital - Times of India
Japanese encephalitis is the issue which Yogi is raising to various govt (Sp-BSP) and now atleast his efforts are showing drastic results. Coming to the statue of unity, everyday atleast 8000 visitors are coming which is giving around 7 crore direct ticket sale revenue per month, this statue is expected to increase the incoming tourist count to 7.5 crore by 2020 in gujrat, and i feel you are educated enough to understand the impact of 7.5 crore tourist in a state per year. You have every right to hate BJP but choose some wise topics. The books in UP schools which are used to be 500-700 rs each in high school/ intermediate are now like 80-120, pls enquire about it. The condition of police reports, hospitals have drastically changed in UP. ask any school going or college going girl in tier 2 or tier 1 cities of UP and they wl tell you the impact of anti romeo squad.

The question I would like to ask is how does a hospital run out of oxygen tanks to begin with? who was fired for the lapse, wasn't this criminal negligence?
Now about your statue of unity stats?
The largest revenue was about 6.38 crore in the month of november, but Sure lets take your numbers, 7 crore / month. i.e 84 crore revenue / year, i,e 35 years to 35years and 8 months to break even just on the revenue, discounting the operating cost of the centers, salaries, power, etc.

Would you invest your own money in a project that takes 35 years to break even? Why would you be ok with the government doing the same with tax payers money.

 

[Arvind]

I am struggling to understand this , people want giant statues? is this the right way to spend 9000 cr of tax payer money. i.e 90000000000 rupees (if I have my zeroes right)

>If it takes about lakh rupees to send 10 kids, complete high school in rural areas, these three state combined could send 90 lakh kids to school free of cost. Or

>9 lakh farmers across these three states can receive 1Lakh rupees as debt assistance to prevent farmer suicides; Or

>9 Lakh small business enterprises could receive 1 lakh rupees as incentive boosting local economy in the area; Or

> 3.75 Lakh two year internships in the PSU's and companies with MOU's with the state governments to improve the employment base in the states or

>90000 Ground water charging reservoirs for a cost of 10 Lakhs avg across the three states which frequently face droughts (and cause farmer suicides)



Have we run out of investment options in Gujarat, Maharashtra and Uttar Pradesh?





I just cannot wrap my head around this statue business, @randomradio

We spend 60 billion dollar yearly on armed forces as well, what if we spent few crores on statue?

 

[Milspec]

We spend 60 billion dollar yearly on armed forces as well, what if we spent few crores on statue?

That is for security, what does building statue bring,
Is it for tourism? if yes how much was allocated for existing heritage sites,
If it's investing in new tourism infrastructure? payback is extremely poor.

So the question is what for? Any accountability?

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio @STEPHEN COHEN @Ashwin @sid4587 @_Anonymous_
I wanted to explore the soundness of this statue building business as most of you seem to be in favor of this citing jobs and tourism that will be delivered as the states plan to invest close to 9000 cr for these three gigantic statues. So what exactly are the numbers, do we have any estimates of break even period for such investment, is this the best utilization of the state funds?
Take the case of Maharashtra's shivaji statue to honor Shivaji; Actual forts built/rebuilt by Shiviaji Maharaj's own guidance like Pratapgad, Sindhudurg, Raigad, even the pune's Sinhgad and shanivar wada lie in ruined state, all the while we want to built new monuments, When the ones which have ample historical value lie in ruins. Instead of spending money to fix heritage sights which have actual significance,and can surpass tourism value of the made in china monuments, wouldn't it serve the states better to fix it's existing tourism infrastructure.
List of forts in India - Wikipedia


And this is discounting for the fact that state like UP has massive mismanagement, children die in hospitals for lack of oxygen, while the CM appropriates the decision to build a Lord Rama's statue? Isn't there anything else left to do in the state, are all the metrics for development already exhausted in growth that such avenues of investment of tax payer funds need to be undertaken?

The statues being built currently are our best performing states.

Also, it's not just ticket sales alone, you should also see the increase in economic activity around the statue. An entire city can be built around it. So you can expect the increase in revenues the state will see over the many decades.

Statues don't make sense in developed countries, but India needs at least 30+ New York sized cities over the next 50 years. So the urbanisation of the countryside will have the statue paying for itself and then a lot more.

 

[Milspec]

The statues being built currently are our best performing states.

Also, it's not just ticket sales alone, you should also see the increase in economic activity around the statue. An entire city can be built around it. So you can expect the increase in revenues the state will see over the many decades.

Statues don't make sense in developed countries, but India needs at least 30+ New York sized cities over the next 50 years. So the urbanisation of the countryside will have the statue paying for itself and then a lot more.

So has the state of gujarat has sanctioned a new city alongside the statue? what are the estimates for urbanization and economic conclaves in such areas, how would you compare them to tried and tested mechanisms like Special economic zones and Industrial Development complex's?

Also UP is part of top state ranking ? by which metrics? size?

Up ranks
Economy : 20
Infra : 17
Agriculture : 3
Education : 20
Health : 13
law and order : 19
Governance 13
Inclusive dev: 14
Entrepreneurship : 7
Environment: 20

India Today State of the States 2018: Complete rankings

 

[randomradio]

I am struggling to understand this , people want giant statues? is this the right way to spend 9000 cr of tax payer money. i.e 90000000000 rupees (if I have my zeroes right)

>If it takes about lakh rupees to send 10 kids, complete high school in rural areas, these three state combined could send 90 lakh kids to school free of cost. Or

>9 lakh farmers across these three states can receive 1Lakh rupees as debt assistance to prevent farmer suicides; Or

>9 Lakh small business enterprises could receive 1 lakh rupees as incentive boosting local economy in the area; Or

> 3.75 Lakh two year internships in the PSU's and companies with MOU's with the state governments to improve the employment base in the states or

>90000 Ground water charging reservoirs for a cost of 10 Lakhs avg across the three states which frequently face droughts (and cause farmer suicides)

All that you mentioned is happening anyway.

Farmer suicides are happening for an altogether different reason, and no amount of debt assistance can help them. Rather debt makes their lives even worse. The only solution is irrigation. This is a 20-year project and is happening through interlinking of rivers.
Narendra Modi’s $87 billion river-linking plan: These projects would help India fight floods, droughts

And another solution is to provide them an alternate source of income, like factory work, which is also a time consuming task, made worse by the fact that most adult farmers are not educated and do not want to leave their comfort zone. So the target is children, and all children in India have been receiving free school education up to 8th, and most states continue that until they graduate, although it's not universal yet. The most important fact is the students have started receiving vocational training, which will help them become employable after secondary education.
670 schools to have vocational training in Class IX - The Times Of India - Chennai, 5/8/2018

There's also the Skill India program, which aims to provide vocational training to youth who are not in school.

As for funding small industries and even individuals, there's the MUDRA Yojana. Over 150 million citizens and entities have been given loans to start or run businesses since 2015. 8 lakh crore has been distributed to that many people. And most of the beneficiaries are women, and this even covers first-timers.

 

[randomradio]

So has the state of gujarat has sanctioned a new city alongside the statue? what are the estimates for urbanization and economic conclaves in such areas, how would you compare them to tried and tested mechanisms like Special economic zones and Industrial Development complex's?

Also UP is part of top state ranking ? by which metrics? size?

Up ranks
Economy : 20
Infra : 17
Agriculture : 3
Education : 20
Health : 13
law and order : 19
Governance 13
Inclusive dev: 14
Entrepreneurship : 7
Environment: 20

India Today State of the States 2018: Complete rankings

Cities are built over decades.

The thing about UP, although UP is one of our poorest states in terms of per capita, it is our 4th richest states in terms of GDP. So they are doing it through sheer money power. At the same time, the central govt has been spending a lot of money towards welfare, which is directly benefiting the poorest states the most, which means these states are witnessing a significant influx of money from the centre. This is one of the main reasons why the BJP won elections in UP in a landslide.

Read this:
The rise of the trillion-dollar state economies

 

[_Anonymous_]

I just cannot wrap my head around this statue business, @randomradio

You made an elementary mistake, we all do here. This isn't about statues or roads, ports, pieces of real estates for public good etc. It's about ownership, legacy & it's impact on politics.
@randomradio is the best person to tell you why your argument is a mistaken one & worse why are you a cry baby. I wonder why can't you see acche din when even our in house hag @Guynextdoor can, in the balakote strikes. Please change your outlook.

 

[Milspec]

Cities are built over decades.

The thing about UP, although UP is one of our poorest states in terms of per capita, it is our 4th richest states in terms of GDP. So they are doing it through sheer money power. At the same time, the central govt has been spending a lot of money towards welfare, which is directly benefiting the poorest states the most, which means these states are witnessing a significant influx of money from the centre. This is one of the main reasons why the BJP won elections in UP in a landslide.

And thus a The State has to build the largest statue in the word, costing about 300 cr. Great rationale.

Read this:
The rise of the trillion-dollar state economies

And Maharashtra's trillion dollar economy is contingent upon a gigantic statue, while heritage forts built by shivaji rot away.[/QUOTE]

 

[Milspec]

All that you mentioned is happening anyway.

Farmer suicides are happening for an altogether different reason, and no amount of debt assistance can help them. Rather debt makes their lives even worse. The only solution is irrigation. This is a 20-year project and is happening through interlinking of rivers.
Narendra Modi’s $87 billion river-linking plan: These projects would help India fight floods, droughts

https://www.financialexpress.com/in...ould-help-india-fight-floods-droughts/836773/
read again I never said anything about increasing debt, rather debt assistance.

And another solution is to provide them an alternate source of income, like factory work, which is also a time consuming task, made worse by the fact that most adult farmers are not educated and do not want to leave their comfort zone. So the target is children, and all children in India have been receiving free school education up to 8th, and most states continue that until they graduate, although it's not universal yet. The most important fact is the students have started receiving vocational training, which will help them become employable after secondary education.
670 schools to have vocational training in Class IX - The Times Of India - Chennai, 5/8/2018

There's also the Skill India program, which aims to provide vocational training to youth who are not in school.

As for funding small industries and even individuals, there's the MUDRA Yojana. Over 150 million citizens and entities have been given loans to start or run businesses since 2015. 8 lakh crore has been distributed to that many people. And most of the beneficiaries are women, and this even covers first-timers.

I did not mention loans in post, I clearly stated giving the statue money to the ones who can become assets to the economy, farmers, students, graduates, ground water replenishment.

 

[Milspec]

You made an elementary mistake, we all do here. This isn't about statues or roads, ports, pieces of real estates for public good etc. It's about ownership, legacy & it's impact on politics.
@randomradio is the best person to tell you why your argument is a mistaken one & worse why are you a cry baby. I wonder why can't you see acche din when even our in house hag @Guynextdoor can, in the balakote strikes. Please change your outlook.

Fresh off the press:

 

[randomradio]

And thus a The State has to build the largest statue in the word, costing about 300 cr. Great rationale.

It's a revenue generator. Just like a dam. The statue can increase real estate prices radically, for one. Not counting the economy that's built around it over the years.

And Maharashtra's trillion dollar economy is contingent upon a gigantic statue, while heritage forts built by shivaji rot away.

You need both the old and the new. The govt can't take care of everything.

Purely on cost vs benefit, the new statue will be able to generate enough revenue to pay for even the maintenance of all of Shivaji's forts.

read again I never said anything about increasing debt, rather debt assistance.


I did not mention loans in post, I clearly stated giving the statue money to the ones who can become assets to the economy, farmers, students, graduates, ground water replenishment.

As I said, all that's happening anyway.

Also debt assistance won't help. Farmers who commit suicide are being taken for a ride by usurers. Some people are simply too greedy or are terrible at managing money. The last thing you want is for the govt to subsidise usurers. Rather the govt keeps warning farmers to take loans only from banks, but people don't listen. The govt hands out enough money to keep farms running and waives off loans in times of trouble. But there's nothing they can do about stupid people in the world.

 

[Milspec]

It's a revenue generator. Just like a dam. The statue can increase real estate prices radically, for one. Not counting the economy that's built around it over the years.

So there must be some sound estimates given by Niti-Aayog, what is the breakeven for such Statues, any references?

You need both the old and the new. The govt can't take care of everything.

Thats new, Government owned heritage sites are no longer governments responsibility?

Purely on cost vs benefit, the new statue will be able to generate enough revenue to pay for even the maintenance of all of Shivaji's forts.

Would love to see the analysis?

Also debt assistance won't help. Farmers who commit suicide are being taken for a ride by usurers. Some people are simply too greedy or are terrible at managing money. The last thing you want is for the govt to subsidise usurers. Rather the govt keeps warning farmers to take loans only from banks, but people don't listen. The govt hands out enough money to keep farms running and waives off loans in times of trouble. But there's nothing they can do about stupid people in the world.

But the statues will?

 

[Shajida Khan]

I am struggling to understand this , people want giant statues? is this the right way to spend 9000 cr of tax payer money. i.e 90000000000 rupees (if I have my zeroes right)

>If it takes about lakh rupees to send 10 kids, complete high school in rural areas, these three state combined could send 90 lakh kids to school free of cost. Or

>9 lakh farmers across these three states can receive 1Lakh rupees as debt assistance to prevent farmer suicides; Or

>9 Lakh small business enterprises could receive 1 lakh rupees as incentive boosting local economy in the area; Or

> 3.75 Lakh two year internships in the PSU's and companies with MOU's with the state governments to improve the employment base in the states or

>90000 Ground water charging reservoirs for a cost of 10 Lakhs avg across the three states which frequently face droughts (and cause farmer suicides)



Have we run out of investment options in Gujarat, Maharashtra and Uttar Pradesh?





I just cannot wrap my head around this statue business, @randomradio

Consider two scenarios :

1. Indian government plans to demolish Jama Masjid or say Sankracharya Math.
2. Indian government wastes 10 billion dollars to build a worthless statue.

One of them will invite a massive backlash from Indians and other won't. Priorities.

When one doesn't protest the obvious evil, they are part of it. I rest my case!

 

[_Anonymous_]

It's a revenue generator. Just like a dam. The statue can increase real estate prices radically, for one. Not counting the economy that's built around it over the years.



You need both the old and the new. The govt can't take care of everything.

Purely on cost vs benefit, the new statue will be able to generate enough revenue to pay for even the maintenance of all of Shivaji's forts.



As I said, all that's happening anyway.

Also debt assistance won't help. Farmers who commit suicide are being taken for a ride by usurers. Some people are simply too greedy or are terrible at managing money. The last thing you want is for the govt to subsidise usurers. Rather the govt keeps warning farmers to take loans only from banks, but people don't listen. The govt hands out enough money to keep farms running and waives off loans in times of trouble. But there's nothing they can do about stupid people in the world.

Are you aware smoking Ganja makes you contemplative? Even I wasn't aware of this tidbit, to my embarrassment.

 

[randomradio]

So there must be some sound estimates given by Niti-Aayog, what is the breakeven for such Statues, any references?

I doubt any estimates available today will give you an accurate picture. You could just make a guess for now.

Thats new, Government owned heritage sites are no longer governments responsibility?

I am referring to the scale of the investment needed. We don't have enough money for everything.

Would love to see the analysis?

Just look at the Statue of Liberty. It makes hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue all by itself.

Otoh, Statue of Unity and Lord Rama statues would not only see ticket sales, but also rise in real estate prices which can drive up tax revenues. And not counting the businesses created around it.

But the statues will?

They can get jobs maintaining the statues. Visitors need food, so they can set up restaurants. They need transportation, so you can become cab drivers. Hotel, hotel staff, carpenters, plumbers etc. There is no limit to the avenues created for employment around the statue. And the govt churns a huge profit after all that. Real estate taxes, service taxes, GST, income tax due to formal employment etc.

Revenue generator.