Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

That image has been photoshopped. There are no wingtip hardpoints.

Actual plane.
1657a5d5f2392641310920.jpg


So there are only 2 usable hardpoints under each wing, no different from JF-17 and LCA Mk1.



Derby is a very old missile, and ASRAAM is far more modern than anything the Chinese have.

Oh ok, sorry if that photo is fake.

Anyway,In the league of ASRAAM, there is PL-10. IIR (Imaging InfraRed) guidance, high off boresight, cueing with HMDS, etc

I am not going to compare ranges as the it differs at various altitudes.
 
Oh ok, sorry if that photo is fake.

What's funny is the photoshopped image is exactly what the MWF will look like.

Anyway,In the league of ASRAAM, there is PL-10. IIR (Imaging InfraRed) guidance, high off boresight, cueing with HMDS, etc

I am not going to compare ranges as the it differs at various altitudes.

Specs may look similar, but quality, mautrity and other factors matter a lot.

Anyway, PL-10 shouldn't be able to match ASRAAM's range because the ASRAAM has dual thrust motors. This alone is a pretty big advantage, even if all other technologies used are the same. PL-10 should be more similar to IRIS-T than ASRAAM in that respect, ie, more Gs and less range.
 
What's funny is the photoshopped image is exactly what the MWF will look like.

We are talking about LCA Tejas, right? not MWF.

I believe that CCM range really doesn't matter. Range may matter in case of BVR combat but not in WVR. The pilot will always try to hit the target at the most close and the most suitable range where bandit don't
get enough time to release flares to evade.

Above is jusy my opinion, I am ready to debate on this.

Specs may look similar, but quality, mautrity and other factors matter a lot.

Ofcourse, but I think original quality can only be determined after real combat results, not with specs available on public domain. Chinese missiles are really good, this is one of the reasons why US is developing a new BVRAAM Peregrine (with much greater range than present AMRAAM). I said one of the reasons, not the only reason. There are more reasons for US to develop a new missile.
 
What's funny is the photoshopped image is exactly what the MWF will look like.



Specs may look similar, but quality, mautrity and other factors matter a lot.

Anyway, PL-10 shouldn't be able to match ASRAAM's range because the ASRAAM has dual thrust motors. This alone is a pretty big advantage, even if all other technologies used are the same. PL-10 should be more similar to IRIS-T than ASRAAM in that respect, ie, more Gs and less range.
ASRAAM has a dual pulse engine ?
Are you sure ? Never read something about that for a "short" range missile.
 
I believe that CCM range really doesn't matter. Range may matter in case of BVR combat but not in WVR. The pilot will always try to hit the target at the most close and the most suitable range where bandit don't
get enough time to release flares to evade.

Above is jusy my opinion, I am ready to debate on this.

Range is important regardless of whether it's CCM or BVR. And IAF prefers range over Gs anyway.
 
ASRAAM has a dual pulse engine ?
Are you sure ? Never read something about that for a "short" range missile.

That's the information I have. The engine is from Roxel.

As for it being short range, I don't know why it's surprising, DRDO also made dual thrust motors for Trishul back in the 90s. Its operational range was expected to be only 10Km. And the same engine was later used in the Barak 8 project.
 

How authentic is this, what ever he is saying? IAF guys went to see PAF industries to learn about how Pakistanis are developing their JF17??
 
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Block-III first flight
So called Rafael killer just a avionics upgrade for blk2? Lol I was expecting more, just like any other Pakistani chest thumping it ended up as usual paper dragon, they added 3 Axis fbw and an aesa called blk3 where mk1a come with all these features plus bouns ones and no one there to take it, least we have to learn from them , if ur home grown product is not up to tire one u have to give a go to it I short term it make difficult but in long run it will help u
 
So called Rafael killer just a avionics upgrade for blk2? Lol I was expecting more, just like any other Pakistani chest thumping it ended up as usual paper dragon, they added 3 Axis fbw and an aesa called blk3 where mk1a come with all these features plus bouns ones and no one there to take it, least we have to learn from them , if ur home grown product is not up to tire one u have to give a go to it I short term it make difficult but in long run it will help u
That is how block upgrades usually go. It will never be a one-on-one fight and it gives huge value for money for an Airforce like PAF.
 
So called Rafael killer just a avionics upgrade for blk2? Lol I was expecting more, just like any other Pakistani chest thumping it ended up as usual paper dragon, they added 3 Axis fbw and an aesa called blk3 where mk1a come with all these features plus bouns ones and no one there to take it, least we have to learn from them , if ur home grown product is not up to tire one u have to give a go to it I short term it make difficult but in long run it will help u

3 axis FBW is pretty much useless in JF17

3 axis FBW full potential is realised with unstable aircraft designs only.

That is RSS ( relaxed static stability ) design where the aircraft is designed to be unstable during flight.

Almost all recent 4 and 5 generation fighters have RSS based design.

In simple words the aircraft is designed to be aerodynamically unstable.

RSS changes the dynamics of the aircraft while dramatically enhancing its maneuvering capabilities.

Implementing relaxed static stability means that the center of lift will forward of the center of gravity instead of aft of it and as a result the aircraft will be statically unstable.

Also static stability is proportional to the control forces, therefor reducing stability gives pilots more response for the same effort.

RSS is also called reduced static longitudinal static stability. longitudinal static stability can be measured as the relative distance between neutral point and the center of gravity.

An aircraft with RSS design will have the center of gravity aft of the neutral point. (the neutral point is that point along the path of the center of gravity movement where the stick force per knot drops to zero and increases in either direction.)

As we shift the center of gravity aft of the neutral point , stability is lost and the aircraft will start deviating from its trimmed state.so shifting the center of gravity back gives us a more responsive and maneuverable aircraft but with the added risk of uncontrollable behavior which cannot be contained by manual input. however this behavior is useful if we want high angle changes and even high AOA quickly.

An unstable aircraft only needs minimal kick and will do the rest of the maneuver all by itself. it is also helps to reduce the inertias particularly around the role axis for a faster response.maneuvers are instantaneous initiated and most importantly precisely controlled.

Also deliberately designed unstable aircrafts require smaller control deflections to initiate maneuvering , as a result drag and control surface imposed stresses is reduced and aircraft responsiveness is also enhanced.

RSS configured aircrafts are near impossible to control by pilot input, so an artificial stability is imposed by using computers , servos and sensors as parts of a fully digital fly by wire (FBW) control system working in all the three axis that is pitch, yaw and roll.

And F16 is the first aircraft in which rss was implemented and to control the resultant unstable characteristics of F16 , the concept of digital fly by wire (FBW) was also for the first time implemented in F16.

Advantages of RSS design coupled with FULL FBW are
1.it provides good handling capability
2.it also provides invariant response with respect to variations in aerodynamics , fuel etc and facilitates robust performance.
3.it enables the pilot to fly the mission without worrying about exceeding of flight parameters beyond the safe limits.in flight safety is increased.
4.precise response control , reduced lag and overshoots results in vastly improved response and tracking accuracy of the pilot airframe system.

Also RSS design based aircrafts with tri/quad redundant digital FBW can implement additional highly redundant fail safe advanced safety modes like
1. auto low-speed recovery (ALSR) incase of impending stall during nap of the earth missions or low speed maneuvers etc. The aircraft automatically takes control and recovers the aircraft.
2. Disorientation recovery mode (DRM) to fight pilot disorientation in the high seas ( a common cause for crash at sea ) or in the clouds etc. When the Pilot gets disoriented in such situations, he can press a switch (panic button) provided in the cockpit then the aircraft takes over the controls and recovers itself to level flight optimally (with minimum loss of speed or altitude).
Etc

And FC1/JF 17 is a fighter aircraft whose base design is aerodynamically stable, that is - its design is not rss based.

And the reason why FC1/JF17 came out with analogue flight controls and later a hybrid flight control system and then later according to news reports the JF17B twin seater came with full digital FBW .

The advantages of implementing FBW in a aerodynamically stable aircraft is minimal except for a slight reduction in size , weight and power (SWaP) parameters. It will not increase the aerodynamic performance , superior handling capabilities , stable invariant response etc as compared to a fighter aircraft with a FBW designed to go hand in hand with its inherent aerodynamically unstable rss design from the design stage itself.

All 4 gen aircrafts like f16 , gripen , LCA , typhoon etc are RSS aka unstable designs.

JF17 is a stable design aircraft much like older generations , 3 rd generation downwards.

Implementing FBW in stable designed like JF17 does not confer any kinematic advantage compared to unstable designed aircrafts like LCA .

Full potential of FBW will never be realised in JF17 only advantage will be in SWaP ( size weight power ) savings only .
 
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3 axis FBW is pretty much useless in JF17

3 axis FBW full potential is realised with unstable aircraft designs only.

That is RSS ( relaxed static stability ) design where the aircraft is designed to be unstable during flight.

Almost all recent 4 and 5 generation fighters have RSS based design.

In simple words the aircraft is designed to be aerodynamically unstable.

RSS changes the dynamics of the aircraft while dramatically enhancing its maneuvering capabilities.

Implementing relaxed static stability means that the center of lift will forward of the center of gravity instead of aft of it and as a result the aircraft will be statically unstable.

Also static stability is proportional to the control forces, therefor reducing stability gives pilots more response for the same effort.

RSS is also called reduced static longitudinal static stability. longitudinal static stability can be measured as the relative distance between neutral point and the center of gravity.

An aircraft with RSS design will have the center of gravity aft of the neutral point. (the neutral point is that point along the path of the center of gravity movement where the stick force per knot drops to zero and increases in either direction.)

As we shift the center of gravity aft of the neutral point , stability is lost and the aircraft will start deviating from its trimmed state.so shifting the center of gravity back gives us a more responsive and maneuverable aircraft but with the added risk of uncontrollable behavior which cannot be contained by manual input. however this behavior is useful if we want high angle changes and even high AOA quickly.

An unstable aircraft only needs minimal kick and will do the rest of the maneuver all by itself. it is also helps to reduce the inertias particularly around the role axis for a faster response.maneuvers are instantaneous initiated and most importantly precisely controlled.

Also deliberately designed unstable aircrafts require smaller control deflections to initiate maneuvering , as a result drag and control surface imposed stresses is reduced and aircraft responsiveness is also enhanced.

RSS configured aircrafts are near impossible to control by pilot input, so an artificial stability is imposed by using computers , servos and sensors as parts of a fully digital fly by wire (FBW) control system working in all the three axis that is pitch, yaw and roll.

And F16 is the first aircraft in which rss was implemented and to control the resultant unstable characteristics of F16 , the concept of digital fly by wire (FBW) was also for the first time implemented in F16.

Advantages of RSS design coupled with FULL FBW are
1.it provides good handling capability
2.it also provides invariant response with respect to variations in aerodynamics , fuel etc and facilitates robust performance.
3.it enables the pilot to fly the mission without worrying about exceeding of flight parameters beyond the safe limits.in flight safety is increased.
4.precise response control , reduced lag and overshoots results in vastly improved response and tracking accuracy of the pilot airframe system.

Also RSS design based aircrafts with tri/quad redundant digital FBW can implement additional highly redundant fail safe advanced safety modes like
1. auto low-speed recovery (ALSR) incase of impending stall during nap of the earth missions or low speed maneuvers etc. The aircraft automatically takes control and recovers the aircraft.
2. Disorientation recovery mode (DRM) to fight pilot disorientation in the high seas ( a common cause for crash at sea ) or in the clouds etc. When the Pilot gets disoriented in such situations, he can press a switch (panic button) provided in the cockpit then the aircraft takes over the controls and recovers itself to level flight optimally (with minimum loss of speed or altitude).
Etc

And FC1/JF 17 is a fighter aircraft whose base design is aerodynamically stable, that is - its design is not rss based.

And the reason why FC1/JF17 came out with analogue flight controls and later a hybrid flight control system and then later according to news reports the JF17B twin seater came with full digital FBW .

The advantages of implementing FBW in a aerodynamically stable aircraft is minimal except for a slight reduction in size , weight and power (SWaP) parameters. It will not increase the aerodynamic performance , superior handling capabilities , stable invariant response etc as compared to a fighter aircraft with a FBW designed to go hand in hand with its inherent aerodynamically unstable rss design from the design stage itself.

All 4 gen aircrafts like f16 , gripen , LCA , typhoon etc are RSS aka unstable designs.

JF17 is a stable design aircraft much like older generations , 3 rd generation downwards.

Implementing FBW in stable designed like JF17 does not confer any kinematic advantage compared to unstable designed aircrafts like LCA .

Full potential of FBW will never be realised in JF17 only advantage will be in SWaP ( size weight power ) savings only .
Jf-17 was based on F-16 and similar in every aspect .
So much so that Pakistan never needed a twin seat trainer for their JF-17 pilots, instead converted F-16 pilots to jf-17 with minimal training on simulator.
I am not sure from where you got this idea that JF-17 is not RSS
 
I don't know whether to laugh or guffaw

Madrassa logic is anything but logic

FC-1 design is primarily a MIG design which Chinese expanded on.
There is official evidence from both Russia and China to the same.

FC-1 whose IPR is Chinese is according to you based on F16 is the biggest bullshiit i have heard about FC-1 till date. That is why Chinese went chasing after Lavi for J10. The crap i get to read is mind-boggling.

The irony is RSS designed aircrafts cannot fly without full digital FBW from the word go, cannot even take off the ground.

Aeronautics is a subject in madrasa curriculum ? Surprise us

While your ruhani FC-1/JF17 flew for all this year's, initially flew with full analogue flight control systems and later on with hybrid flight control system ( analogue control systems in yaw and roll axis and FBW in pitch axis only ).

If FC-1 / JF17 was RSS design ie aerodynamically unstable design it would not have even got off the ground with conventional and later hybrid convention flight control systems , forget about getting airborne.

Madrassa education has severe limitations when it comes to science , don't go there .

Comparing a light category aircraft with a medium category aircraft , seriously ?

JF17 is shiit compared to F16 , understand that very well.

So much so that the Chinese did not even bother to induct it rather they opted for J10 which they consider as direct competition to F16 for all its worth , but that's a matter of another discussion.

Also beggars cannot be choosers

Lack of trainer version forced you to send pilots trained on F16 trainers to fly JF17 after limited exposure to JF17 on stimulators. This is nothing out of the extraordinary, rather necessity, nor it is related to similarity in capabilities other than both being single engined aircrafts, rather training in a superior platform and going on to fly a inferior platform made it an easier task for the pilots.
 
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J-10 has atleast 11 hardpoints while Tejas has 7 hardpoints.
View attachment 11922
Dual racks will further increase the J-10's hardpoint to 13. The J-10C also features an AESA radar and also integrated asvanced EW Suite. So I think it is too early to say Tejas better than J-10.

Also Derby and ASRAAM missiles are pretty new. Same goes for competing Chinese PL-15 and PL-10. None of the missiles are battle tested so we can't assume the real capability only with stats.

Few American patriots proudly boasts a lot about the AIM-9 missiles. But in 2017, an AIM-9X failed to hit a Syrian Su-22 during live combat. Really embarrassing for US and the boys.

So far I know, ASRAAM too have identical guidance system as AIM-9X.
 
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