Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

[Speedster1]

Why would PAF buy small batch of J10 before moving onto J31.

The J-10C is going to be their new eff solah with numbers expected to go into triple digits.

Besides, the Pakistanis have been making noises about buying twin engine jets for a while. I think the last twin engine combat ac in the PAF was the Chini A-5 Fantan strike ac, retired long since.

Too early to talk about J31 numbers but they have a penchant for 'equal-equal' with the IAF.

Assuming 4-5 years before PAF get their J31,
India s first option will be Amca.

The latest news is that AMCA wil start production around 2035. Even a small number of F-31s will give them an ego-boost. Once again, they'll claim to the first AF in the sub-continent to get 5G fighter, just like the 1980s when they got the F-16.

The IAF will not take it lying down and might go for some Su-57 as stopgap.

 

[Sathya]

The J-10C is going to be their new eff solah with numbers expected to go into triple digits.

Besides, the Pakistanis have been making noises about buying twin engine jets for a while. I think the last twin engine combat ac in the PAF was the Chini A-5 Fantan strike ac, retired long since.

Too early to talk about J31 numbers but they have a penchant for 'equal-equal' with the IAF.


The latest news is that AMCA wil start production around 2035. Even a small number of F-31s will give them an ego-boost. Once again, they'll claim to the first AF in the sub-continent to get 5G fighter, just like the 1980s when they got the F-16.

The IAF will not take it lying down and might go for some Su-57 as stopgap.

For me, Su 57 will come back only if US don't sign F414 Or delay F404 beyond acceptable limits.

Reasons I could think of are..

Off the shelf Purchase will be silver bullet, totally depending ( with no source code) on Russian mic in the background of CAATSA.

Even after Make in India, Su 30 had 40 % availability before Parikkar forced to it higher levels. Su 57 being 5 th gen might require even more maintenance.

We already bought a silver bullet Rafale ( unless MRFA gets done)
Having 2 of them , sustainable will become difficult in case of drawn out war.

Russian platform has be superior to both J 31 & Amca to play the role of Silver bullet.

If Rafale can take care of J20, we ll only be buying more Rafales in MRFA making it more sustainable rather having 2 silver bullets.

 

[_Anonymous_]

For me, Su 57 will come back only if US don't sign F414 Or delay F404 beyond acceptable limits.

Reasons I could think of are..

Off the shelf Purchase will be silver bullet, totally depending ( with no source code) on Russian mic in the background of CAATSA.

Even after Make in India, Su 30 had 40 % availability before Parikkar forced to it higher levels. Su 57 being 5 th gen might require even more maintenance.

We already bought a silver bullet Rafale ( unless MRFA gets done)
Having 2 of them , sustainable will become difficult in case of drawn out war.

Russian platform has be superior to both J 31 & Amca to play the role of Silver bullet.

If Rafale can take care of J20, we ll only be buying more Rafales in MRFA making it more sustainable rather having 2 silver bullets.

If Rafales can take care of the J-20s , they can take care of the J-31 more so coz PAF receives export models . Simple rule of thumb.

I don't think the IAF is losing too much sweat on what Paxtan or PAF is upto . It's the Chinese who've gotten them worried or at least it should get them worried.

 

[Sathya]

If Rafales can take care of the J-20s , they can take care of the J-31 more so coz PAF receives export models . Simple rule of thumb.

I don't think the IAF is losing too much sweat on what Paxtan or PAF is upto . It's the Chinese who've gotten them worried or at least it should get them worried.

Will UAE suspend Rafale purchase?

Even if it did, will we make use of that window? For the Navy atleast..

 

[_Anonymous_]

Will UAE suspend Rafale purchase?

Even if it did, will we make use of that window? For the Navy atleast..

It's already been proven to be false news .

The Naval program will go thru before the end of this financial year . The IN needs it within the next 5 years to guard against PLAAF targeting the A&N island chains & Vizag .

As far as the IAF goes only God knows what's going on . I doubt Modi or the MoD has the slightest clue & the IAF is now squaring up to face Murphy's law running around like headless chickens.

 

[Speedster1]

Purchase will be silver bullet, totally depending ( with no source code) on Russian mic in the background of CAATSA

Russia wants to rope in India to manufacture Su-30s for export as a way to circumvent CAATSA. With the SU-57, OPEX costs will take some time to stabilize, no doubt abt that.

IIRC, there were some news reports about the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence recommending that the IAF go for a foriegn 5G fighter, keeping threat perceptions in mind. So, they are at least thinking along those lines.

Russian platform has be superior to both J 31 & Amca to play the role of Silver bullet.

Capability wise, the Su57's avionics+EW are likely inferior to a Rafale F4. But buying it will provide a much needed psychological boost to the IAF.

If Rafale can take care of J20, we ll only be buying more Rafales in MRFA making it more sustainable rather having 2 silver bullets.

We have always brought off-the-shelf stuff to immediate needs until indigenous equivalents were available. The F-35 is the only other alternative which we are unlikely to get. The IAF chose the Rafale as its MMRCA, arguably the most expensive ac, on the market (+spent a bomb customizing it)

I don't think the cost will be a factor.

 

[Ginvincible]

The fact that the Pakistanis bought the J-10C indicates that no more F-16s were/are forthcoming. India may have leaned on the US to not sell them any new ones. There were some reports recently that the US vetoed the sale of ex-Turkish ac to the PAF, after the former got their new Block 70/72s .

Given how sensitive we are, big-ticket sales to Pak will likely be limited, more so if Trump comes to power.

There are other considerations. The J-10C is undoubtedly cheaper than the F-16, and Pakistan probably got some 'mate's rates' or whatever from the Chinese. The PAF is also adopting more Chinese munitions (which are again cheaper) which they otherwise struggle to integrate onto F-16s. Chinese platforms are also obviously easier for interoperability between the PAF and PLAAF.

Side note: the F-16s are still getting sustainment packages from the US despite Indian opposition. I really don't think there's as much US opposition to selling to Pakistan as you'd expect. Regardless, the PAF F-16s are also getting older & will probably be retired in the mid-late 2030s.

Many of our air chiefs and generals, including the late CDS Rawat, have stated on record that India faces a collusive threat on both borders. The Modi govt imo is banking on diplomacy, economic levers and strategic signalling (Agni5, SSBN) to save our skin in the short to medium term.

More than anything else, its our bloated bureaucracy that's the millstone around our neck, imo. The least they could do imo is set up a non lapsable fund for capital procurement so the armed forces wouldn't have to return leftovers from their yearly allocations. This was being talked about but hasn't been implemented yet.

Pending deep structural reforms, we'll be forced to repeat what Gen. Ved Malik said during Kargil in 1999- "We will fight with what we have". Only this time, it won't be because we lacked the capacity to produce what we needed.

It's an unpopular opinion but I don't think the culture of defense planning will change until India gets a bloody nose in the next conflict. The general population and decision makers don't seem to appreciate the magnitude of what they're face. Defense isn't a prominent issue for most Indians outside of being a reliable jobs program... so successive governments just ignore it. That will change after India loses the next Kargil or whatever limited war occurs over in the next 1-2 decades.

Why would PAF buy small batch of J10 before moving onto J31.

J31 is only at prototype stage, who ll allow pilots to train on Prototype stage.

Pak pilots don't have stealth fighter experience to give in their inputs over what Chinese can do.

Maybe they are there for their customizations.
Are they investing in J31 like Jf 17 ?

I think it makes sense for the PAF to go for the J31.

JF-17 - J10C - J31 create a nice high-lo mix and they are acquiring a variety of drones. There is bound to be some degree of commonality for parts and spares between platforms. The PAF also get a lot more flexibility to integrate different munitions since the Chinese are a lot more open versus Western nations.

China will help Pakistan with twin-engine and stealth pilot training and maintaince. The PAF will get them as soon as they are able to afford it and they're available.

Ultimately

 

[Gautam]

It's an unpopular opinion but I don't think the culture of defense planning will change until India gets a bloody nose in the next conflict.

It is not an unpopular opinion but I doubt much will change even if we get a bloody nose. We are still struggling to implement all the reforms suggested by the Kargil committee report. Check out the wiki page if you haven't heard of it:

Kargil Review Committee - Wikipedia

The most important reform regarding pension & salary spend vs capex on acquisitions, reducing mean age of the military, reform in defence procurement, jointness in operations etc. are all in their initial stages of implementation.

 

[Ginvincible]

It is not an unpopular opinion but I doubt much will change even if we get a bloody nose. We are still struggling to implement all the reforms suggested by the Kargil committee report. Check out the wiki page if you haven't heard of it:

Kargil Review Committee - Wikipedia

The most important reform regarding pension & salary spend vs capex on acquisitions, reducing mean age of the military, reform in defence procurement, jointness in operations etc. are all in their initial stages of implementation.

That is an interesting and I'll definitely check out the full report over labor day.

I just imagine that losing a chunk of territory will motivate India similar to Alsace-Lorraine for France. Perhaps you are right and even if a war is lost there won't be any real change, but one can hope.

Either way, India's reluctance to modernize benefits Pakistan a lot. I always find it a little amusing that even if Pakistan has little resources and lives bailout to bailout, they have really good planning for upgrades and replacement. Just the fact that PAF will get a 5th generation fighter well in advance of the IAF is telling.

 

[Speedster1]

We're already been defeated by the Chinese in 1962 and didn't start fortifying our border with them until 2014.
But we have made a beginning and I think with experienced hands like Doval and Jaisnankar ag the helm, we now have at least some plan of action.

Key decisions like theaterization, IRF will be made sooner than later. But the gov does not have a free hand on major reforms since it's a coalition.

All we keep hearing is they plan to spend X billion on defence in the next 5 years with no mention of the OPEX component.

 

[Ginvincible]

We're already been defeated by the Chinese in 1962 and didn't start fortifying our border with them until 2014.
But we have made a beginning and I think with experienced hands like Doval and Jaisnankar ag the helm, we now have at least some plan of action.

Key decisions like theaterization, IRF will be made sooner than later. But the gov does not have a free hand on major reforms since it's a coalition.

All we keep hearing is they plan to spend X billion on defence in the next 5 years with no mention of the OPEX component.

There have been periods when both major parties had uncontested control. One of the constants between them was the withering of IAF and IA capabilities relative to the threats they're tasked to combat.

 

[Speedster1]

The party currently in power showed at least some urgency in crunch situations, imo. For example, signing for Su-30s, ex-Gorshkov carrier and an Akula SSN soon after Kargil.

They were also the ones who broke the Rafale gridlock (+ signed for Scorpenes) at different times. Unlike one former defence minister who said flat out 'India didn't have any money' at a Defexpo (2012?) no less. One thing that gives me hope is the higher level defence reforms, long considered taboo by the other main opposition party (raising the coup bogey as an excuse to avoid appointing a CDS), have finally started.

The military now has more say in policy matters with former officers like VK Singh and RK Bhadauria advising the government in various capacities. The pace of reforms though will remain slow probably for this entire term. At best, we might see the deal for Rafale-M getting inked plus perhaps the Scorpene mod subs.

 

[Sathya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853646505875218567

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853673421491577237

Airforce variant..

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853694584867414104

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853646505875218567

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853673421491577237

Airforce variant..

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853694584867414104

We have Tejas to tackle PAF J35.

 

[Rajput Lion]

We have Tejas to tackle PAF J35.

IAF isn't worried about J-35. Let them procure it.

 

[LX1111]

IAF isn't worried about J-35. Let them procure it.

Probably like Pakistan got the F16 in the 1980s. I don't know where India got the fifth generation aircraft now, SU57 is an option, but mabe to invest more money than the last time, and the Su-57 did not show its due capabilities in ukrainian battlefield.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Probably like Pakistan got the F16 in the 1980s. I don't know where India got the fifth generation aircraft now, SU57 is an option, but mabe to invest more money than the last time, and the Su-57 did not show its due capabilities in ukrainian battlefield.

For the Chinese " 5th Gen " we don't need any European or US analogue , a good 4.5th Gen will suffice like the Eurofighter or the Rafale. That's what he meant by IAF isn't bothered by the PAF procuring the J-35 .

And if you think or wish to convince us otherwise the burden of proof is on you . For instance , of what make are the Turbo Fans ( TFs) powering the J-35 ? Are they the kind of TFs which are designed for a stealth fighter ? If not how are you claiming the J-35 is a stealth Fighter Aircraft ?

Further if in your opinion for whatever it's worth the Su-57 isn't a stealth fighter & it's performance in the war in Ukraine was abysmal according to you , why exactly will we or the world at large think the J-20 or the J-35 is a stealth fighter ?

After all the Russians have a track record in producing fighter aircrafts since decades which went up against the very best the west had to offer & acquitted themselves with honour . What's your track record like ? Selling cheap fighters to those who can't afford even Russian made equipment & to whom the west won't sell.

The west certainly didn't take Russian fighter aircrafts lightly. The same west doesn't consider the Chinese fighter aircrafts to be at par with even what the Russians have today , where in their estimation the Russians have fallen behind the curve.

 

[LX1111]

For the Chinese " 5th Gen " we don't need any European or US analogue , a good 4.5th Gen will suffice like the Eurofighter or the Rafale. That's what he meant by IAF isn't bothered by the PAF procuring the J-35 .

And if you think or wish to convince us otherwise the burden of proof is on you . For instance , of what make are the Turbo Fans ( TFs) powering the J-35 ? Are they the kind of TFs which are designed for a stealth fighter ? If not how are you claiming the J-35 is a stealth Fighter Aircraft ?

Further if in your opinion for whatever it's worth the Su-57 isn't a stealth fighter & it's performance in the war in Ukraine was abysmal according to you , why exactly will we or the world at large think the J-20 or the J-35 is a stealth fighter ?

After all the Russians have a track record in producing fighter aircrafts since decades which went up against the very best the west had to offer & acquitted themselves with honour . What's your track record like ? Selling cheap fighters to those who can't afford even Russian made equipment & to whom the west won't sell.

The west certainly didn't take Russian fighter aircrafts lightly. The same west doesn't consider the Chinese fighter aircrafts to be at par with even what the Russians have today , where in their estimation the Russians have fallen behind the curve.

Whatever you think, you can think that Rafale or Typhoon can face the fifth generation fighter, after all, this is the Indian forum,
But I would like to say that the Su-57 in Ukraine did not show the five-generation aircraft should be revolutionary role, did not achieve a breakthrough in the Ukrainian air defense network, The role of hunting important rear targets
The Su 57 behaves just like a reinforced Su 35
As for the J 20 / J 35 performance, whatever you think, at least we think he's good enough for the job.After all, Indians are still stuck in the previous era, do not understand the five dynasties era of air combat is like

 

[_Anonymous_]

Whatever you think, you can think that Rafale or Typhoon can face the fifth generation fighter, after all, this is the Indian forum,

I clearly asked stated that the burden of proof is on you to prove the J-20s & the J-35s are 5th Gen .

We've evaluated the Rafales & the Eurofighter in our MMRCA tender . Further both these FAs along with those FAs of the US including the F-35 have been evaluated by many nations as part of their own internal exercises to procure Fighter Aircrafts ( FAs) .

How many such EXTERNAL evaluations have the J-10s or J-11s or the J-16s or the J-20s have undergone ?

Which part of it has Baidu translate not translated ?

But I would like to say that the Su-57 in Ukraine did not show the five-generation aircraft should be revolutionary role, did not achieve a breakthrough in the Ukrainian air defense network, The role of hunting important rear targets
The Su 57 behaves just like a reinforced Su 35

And we should take your word for it because a Chinese has made it . After all you're such a trustworthy ethnicity.

As for the J 20 / J 35 performance, whatever you think, at least we think he's good enough for the job.After all, Indians are still stuck in the previous era, do not understand the five dynasties era of air combat is like

I will repeat what I wrote in the previous post giving the undeserving the benefit of doubt.

For instance , of what make are the Turbo Fans ( TFs) powering the J-35 ? Are they the kind of TFs which are designed for a stealth fighter ? If not how are you claiming the J-35 is a stealth Fighter Aircraft ?

 

[LX1111]

I clearly asked stated that the burden of proof is on you to prove the J-20s & the J-35s are 5th Gen .

We've evaluated the Rafales & the Eurofighter in our MMRCA tender . Further both these FAs along with those FAs of the US including the F-35 have been evaluated by many nations as part of their own internal exercises to procure Fighter Aircrafts ( FAs) .

How many such EXTERNAL evaluations have the J-10s or J-11s or the J-16s or the J-20s have undergone ?

Which part of it has Baidu translate not translated

You picked all the fourth- and 4.5th-generation fighters that were available for sale in the world around 2001, and then you picked a French fighter that looked pretty good. That's it. But do any of these planes come close to matching the F-35 or F-22? No, that's it. It's like picking through a pile of cow dung and choosing the one that looks the best. Just because it looks good doesn't mean it's worth more than gold.