The distance from Hotan Airport to Aksaiqin is only 300km. Even J10C has a A\A Combat radius is 1240km, which is still without Drop tank. Not to mention that J16 has a range of 3400km
People's Liberation Army Air Force : News & Discussions
- Thread starter Aashish
- Start date
Yes. That's actually what I said... "outside of some areas like the north of Kashmir".
But almost everything of importance is under mountains there. Only civilians are exposed. PLAAF needs access to the plains.
Interesting problem though. IAF can't attack due to lack of modernisation, PLAAF can't attack due to altitude. And neither side can actually impact the ground forces much due to their large numbers.
Earlier versions of Typhoon, Gripen and even Rafale etc. didn't have AESA radar. So they were not 4.5 gen? Here is how world's most powerful Air Force defines generations in an unclassified report:
What do you see here? In my opinion 4+ gen could be divided into two groups:
1. All new planes like Rafale/Typhoon and Gripen.
2. Evolved versions of legacy 4th gen planes. Like MKI is of Su-27.
MKI had hyprid PESA from the beginning. And it had everything you mentioned. Now it needs upgrade but that doesn't mean that it is now 3rd gen, lol.
PLAAF has been practicing joint operation of J-16 and J-20 for quite some time. It is for those scenario where Drones and AWACS won't work. GJ-11 is stealth drone, right? You emit and your stealth is compromised.
You assumed my entire scenario wrong. I am not talking about attacking J-16s, but once our fightrrs know J-16s radar emissions, they will "know" that J-20s are around and trying to sneak them. That's where our combined Network will provide us with superior situational awareness regarding J-20s position. And once we get their position, our MKIs and Rafales along with SAMs will do the rest.
MKI is mere a 4th gen aircraft, it is nothing bit sU27 with some israeli avionics.
No
This propoganda is well aged since 80s, and our idiots in centre believed this sh!t for last 40 year so, and i fear still they are, that too even after getting spanked in a** multiple times.
This 4th gen business is very tricky. A lot of it is just marketing or political.
When the MKI came out, both India and Russia called it 4.5th gen and 4+. And it was indeed half a generation ahead of aircraft like the F-16 B52 and M2000 in some ways. But once the Rafale and Su-35 came into the picture, India downgraded MKI to 4th gen and the Russians started calling Su-35 4++. So the definition is flexible.
Rightfully, the Su-27 is 4th gen, MKI/Su-35 are 4.5th gen, Rafale/Typhoon are 5th gen and F-22/F-35 are 6th gen. Rafale and Typhoon had 50-100 times lower frontal RCS than 4th gen and could supercruise, so there's no way these capabilities are 4th gen.
But the Russians decided to call the F-22 5th gen instead of 6th gen as a marketing ploy, and that stuck because it suited the Americans too. What it did is give the Flanker, Fulcrum, Eagle and Viper false equivalence to the Rafale and Typhoon, when in fact Rafale and Typhoon were much more similar to the Su-47 Berkut and Mig 1.44, ie, a generation ahead. The Russians were pretty clever in that respect. So, now the French are just stuck with a "next gen" claim for Rafale.
In any case, LX1111 was correct about the Irbis-E being overhyped, but he's wrong about the Bars. Bars is obviously inferior to the Irbis-E, and of course all the big American radars on the F-22, F-15EX and F-35, also the Rafale's AESA, but it's still similar to smaller radars like the APG-83 and Uttam Mk1.
Lockheed Martin F-16
Lockheed Martin F-16 user+1@localho… Thu, 02/10/2022 - 21:17 The F-16 \
pilotnews.com
Russians still classify Su-30SM as 4+(or 4.5 gen), so they have stuck with their marketing/nomenclature.
Su-35S also reportedly has much more lower frontal RCS than base Su-27 and it does possess "limited" supercruise as well just like Typhoon/Gripen/Rafale.
Both Su-47 and Mig 1.44 carried their weapons internally though. That itself would make them a generation more advance than Euro-Canards. There is no VLO stealth without IWB. Period.
Absolutely. But the way he is generalizing and saying that you need to "atleast" have an AESA for being termed 4.5 gen is simply hyperbole. MKI is indeed 4.5 gen, whichever way we look. However our Rafale is way more advance than MKI is also true. I also believe Rafale to be gen 5 without IWB. But then as I said earlier, there is no true stealth without it. Once we put 6 missiles and 2 EFTs on Rafale, its practical RCS is not that different from lightly loaded MKI(with 6 air to air missiles).In any case, LX1111 was correct about the Irbis-E being overhyped, but he's wrong about the Bars. Bars is obviously inferior to the Irbis-E, and of course all the big American radars on the F-22, F-15EX and F-35, also the Rafale's AESA, but it's still similar to smaller radars like the APG-83 and Uttam Mk1.
The APG-83 has a maximum detection range of 160 nautical miles (nm) or 296 km against aerial targets. Against a 1m^2 radar cross section (RCS) target, the APG-83 has a range of approximately 72 nm (134.5 km) relative to the 38 nm (70 km) for the preceding APG-68(V)9.Lockheed Martin F-16
Lockheed Martin F-16 user+1@localho… Thu, 02/10/2022 - 21:17 The F-16 \
Neither the IAF nor VVS consider it 4.5th gen though. The Russians call the MKI 4+ and the Su-35S 4++. But neither are actually true 4.5th gen. Even when it comes to RCS, the MKI and Su-35S have 4th gen RCS, both sit between the Mirage 2000 and Mig-29S/F-16A.
Su-35 can't supercruise, neither can the Gripen E. And its lower RCS than Su-27 is still multiple times bigger than the Mirage 2000, never mind the Rafale or Typhoon.
MKI MLU will make it 4.5th gen, the same when Su-35S is upgraded with Su-57's radar and EW suite in the future. While AESA alone isn't a factor, both jets are missing a lot of other types of hardware. Both would have qualified for a 4.5th gen definition in 2012 or so, but after the Rafale, J-10C, J-16, Gripen E etc became available, the standard for 4.5th gen changed and the MKI has no real equivalence with most of these aircraft. Can't speak much for Chinese aircraft, but Western aircraft now have a lot of new technologies the MKI doesn't.
The only piece of 5th gen hardware the MKI carries to date is the Rafael BNET, which is also set to be replaced by a new SDR in the near future.
Basically, MKI will become 4.5th gen only after all these things are integrated.
Even with all this, in another 10 years, it will lose its 4.5th gen status because new standards would have been created for the TEDBF and later batches of the LCA Mk2 and Rafale.
If you want to get into specifics, the MKI is a 3rd gen airframe with 4th gen engine and core avionics and only 5th gen mission computer and comm system. It has 3rd gen maintenance, 4th gen combat capabilities, 4th gen supersonic performance and 5th gen subsonic performance. We are stuck with the airframe, but the engine and core avionics need upgrades to get to 4.5th gen status.
Su-47 and Mig 1.44 may have had IWBs, but were not VLO. Both were RO, like Rafale and Typhoon. The Russians sacrificed operational efficiency for the sake of endurance. Both jets were designed for high speed and high agility, like Rafale and Typhoon, with EW providing survivability.
That bit about Rafale's RCS matching the MKI's is nonsense. It was peddled by Russian lobbyists.
Actually it was HVT sir who said that MKI with 6 missiles is literally picked up by modern radars at same time as heavily loaded smaller jets like Tejas(6 missiles and EFTs).
Also, I don't believe in generations changing with time. If MKI was 4.5 gen in 2011, it's still so albeit outdated. Similarly the Rafale that entered service in 2002 was also 4.5 gen like the current F4.1. But the tech difference between both these variants is like day and night.
Let's agree to disagree here
.PS: Here is the tweet by HVT sir:
Last edited:
About generations, well Russians believe Su-27 to be 4th gen. MKI/SM to be 4+ or 4.5gen. Su-35S as near 5th gen(stepping stone) or 4++/4.75gen and Su-57 as 5th gen. I tend to agree with their nomenclature/designation.
These early European fighters could not be called serious 4.5-generation fighters, and in South Korea and Singapore, the Typhoon and Rafale lost out in favor of the F15E
As for the Su30, you may think that PESA is very powerful, in fact, this is the Russian development strategy, at that time, the Soviet Union was difficult to develop qualified flat slot antenna, so choose to develop PESA
So you think the F16C/D is what generation
If you think the Su-30 is a 4.5-generation fighter, then the J-11B,J10A, and even JF17 can be called a 4.5-generation fighter
Last edited:
Do you think the reason the PLAAF is so difficult to perform in the Aksai Chin region is the need to climb to the plateau? It seems that India needs this as well, otherwise the fighter jets taking off from Leh will not be fully loaded, and Leh is a valley airport with worse take-off and landing conditions than China
In the execution of air penetration operations, all stealth is required, and UAVs can certainly use LPI mode for forward detection, after all, they are expendable
There is no joint network in India, hardly even a network
Besides, how do you know that where there's a J16, there's a J20, and you know where J20 is and you can shoot him down? You're so confident
Actually it was HVT sir who said that MKI with 6 missiles is literally picked up by modern radars at same time as heavily loaded smaller jets like Tejas(6 missiles and EFTs).
Also, I don't believe in generations changing with time. If MKI was 4.5 gen in 2011, it's still so albeit outdated. Similarly the Rafale that entered service in 2002 was also 4.5 gen like the current F4.1. But the tech difference between both these variants is like day and night.
Let's agree to disagree here
PS: Here is the tweet by HVT sir:
The Russians and Americans screwed up the nomenclature, so the definitions have to keep changing for 4th gen now. For example, MKI MLU itself is a 3 phase program, and each phase will have a set of next gen avionics that cannot be compared with the previous one, no different from Jaguar DARIN I/II and III. The difference between I and III is a whole generation in terms of capabilities. Which is why the IAF prefers to classify an aircraft's generations based on its capabilities.
Rafale case: IAF officers emphasise in Supreme Court need for 4th, 5th generation fighter jets
They told the bench that Sukhoi 30s is the latest to be inducted which is a 3.5 generation aircraft and said the IAF does not have fourth or fifth generation aircraft.
indianexpress.com
Chalapati said there is no clear definition of generation and as he has flied the LCA which according to him is three and half generation aircraft.
He said both LCA and Su-30MKI are three and half and fourth generation aircrafts respectively but the requirement of IAF at present is of four plus or fifth generations aircrafts.
It will be much more simpler between 5th and 6th.
At the time, LCA lacked BVR capability, so they considered it 3.5th gen instead of 4th. MKI is 4th because of BVR. And LCA Mk1A/Mk2 will be 4.5th gen, as well the Rafale. So the definitions in the IAF is quite clear cut.
HVT is part of the Russian lobby. He is against the Rafale because it hits HAL's bottomline and he works for HAL. And then, both HVT and HAL want MRFA cancelled in favour of ORCA. MRFA will also destroy HAL's monopoly. So there's an agenda behind his tweets, he's not sincere.
In South Korea, they tested the jets in 5 categories, and Rafale won "excellent" in all 5, whereas the F-15 could only achieve "excellent" in two. But they still selected the F-15 because of politics. Dassault publicly said they will never participate in another Korea competition after that.
In Singapore, all 3 jets were pitted against 3 F-16s. Meaning, 1 vs 3, single scenario. Typhoon defeated all three opponents, Rafale defeated 1 and the F-15 lost to all 3. Typhoon was also the only jet that could go supersonic inside their airspace. But the F-15 won because at the time euro was 30% stronger than the USD, so the F-15 was extremely cheap. RSAF wanted the Typhoon, but the ministry chose the F-15.
When you're delusional it's easy to be confident with BS claims that come out of his mouth.