People's Liberation Army Air Force : News & Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

Hi, so India doesn't know much about its biggest competitor. So many models in the WS series originated from AL31?

What exactly do you think the AL series is based on Wumao ? Check out the entire family of TFs in the AL family including the latest Item 30 powering the Su-57M .

Where do you think your compatriots got the idea of building the entire series of WS TFs ? You aren't exactly known for original thinking or research are you .

Copying & Right to Copy is what you're known for . You've a reputation to live upto . Don't let yourself down. How old did you say you were once again ?

@_Anonymous_

WS-10 series is not derived of AL-31F series but based upon CFM-56 engines which are derived from American F101-GE-102 engine. They did take Salyut's help though in refining their engine tech and now have definitely made a breakthrough.

That's what I wrote there. Re read it .

 

[randomradio]

To be honest, I admire the Indians' ability to act like ostriches. You can find out how many J-11b/bs and J-16s there are, multiply that by 2, add the J10Cs of batches 4, 5, and 6, and some J-10s, and that's the number of WS-10 engines.

If you say I should multiply by 2, then I don't think China has 500+ J-10Cs or 600+ J-16s.

My guess is all J-10s, J-11s and J-16s combined, all versions, are somewhere around 1500-1600 by the end of 2023.

 

[LX1111]

If you say I should multiply by 2, then I don't think China has 500+ J-10Cs or 600+ J-16s.

My guess is all J-10s, J-11s and J-16s combined, all versions, are somewhere around 1500-1600 by the end of 2023.

Well, I told you, Indians don't really know about China, China has about 200 J-11B and about 100 J-11BS using WS-10 engines, that's about 600, China also has about 300 J-16s, that's also 600, plus 4-6 batches of J-10C, that's about 120. also to the J-10S/A to replace the WS-10 from al31, I said that China has about 1200 WS-10 is actually said less

 

[LX1111]

What exactly do you think the AL series is based on Wumao ? Check out the entire family of TFs in the AL family including the latest Item 30 powering the Su-57M .

Where do you think your compatriots got the idea of building the entire series of WS TFs ? You aren't exactly known for original thinking or research are you .

Copying & Right to Copy is what you're known for . You've a reputation to live upto . Don't let yourself down. How old did you say you were once again

You didn't think China had just one WS-10, did you? Have you heard of the WS-6? Have you heard of the WS-9?
Even though the WS-10 only refers to the AL-31 in the afterburner, its main structure is still a further development of the WS-6, and uses the F101 core engine, and references parts of the WS-9 design
The Chinese-made WS-6 made a 24-hour bench test in 1984 and reached 12 tons of thrust, much further than the current Indian engine, although the WS-6 was eventually discontinued due to funding cuts. However, it has trained talents for Chinese engines and accumulated a lot of experience.

In terms of new materials, 15 new material technology achievements have been made, such as titanium alloy, superalloy and graphite sealing.
In terms of new processes, 17 technological breakthroughs have been made, such as air-cooled hollow turbine blades, titanium alloy long blades die forging, thin disks and slender shaft machining.
In terms of accessories, we have obtained 9 kinds of new accessories technology achievements, such as high energy electric nozzle and gas core booster fuel pump.

 

[LX1111]

So let's get this straight . The Chinese developed their WS series of TFs in their very first attempt isn't it ? The Kaveri will become everything you say it will be & MORE with time. That's what our agencies are working on & we will get there WITHOUT resorting to reverse engineering the CFM-56 or the AL-31F or by deploying some MSS idiot like Xu Yanjun. How old did you say you are Wumao ?

If 20 years ago, you said this and people still believed it, but now, sorry, I think the Indians better pray for the Americans to give you the F414 technology, but I think with HAL's ability, it will probably still be the same as the AL-31, claiming to build the F414 from scratch, but not learning any technology.

 

[LX1111]

My guess is all J-10s, J-11s and J-16s combined, all versions, are somewhere around 1500-1600 by the end of 2023.

If you don't consider the J-11A and SU27SK that have been phased out of active service, your number is correct

 

[LX1111]

When did the CCP sign a contract for the purchase of the Su-30 MKK ? It was in 1996 .

China Buying Russian Combat Jets | Arms Control Association

Look I realise like all Wumaos you need to make a living but this isn't Weibo in case you haven't noticed .

save some of your IQ, China only really sign the development contract in 1996, but the actual arrival of the matter after 2000, there are 24 su30MK2 orders signed in 2003, the actual conflict between China and Russia is mainly J11A, China refused to produce 200. Only 105 J-11A were produced, and they turned down the Russian SU27SK3(I can't remember the exact model) and decided to produce the J-11B themselves

 

[_Anonymous_]

You didn't think China had just one WS-10, did you? Have you heard of the WS-6? Have you heard of the WS-9?
Even though the WS-10 only refers to the AL-31 in the afterburner, its main structure is still a further development of the WS-6, and uses the F101 core engine, and references parts of the WS-9 design .

The Chinese-made WS-6 made a 24-hour bench test in 1984 and reached 12 tons of thrust, much further than the current Indian engine, although the WS-6 was eventually discontinued due to funding cuts. However, it has trained talents for Chinese engines and accumulated a lot of experience.

View attachment 35257

In terms of new materials, 15 new material technology achievements have been made, such as titanium alloy, superalloy and graphite sealing.
In terms of new processes, 17 technological breakthroughs have been made, such as air-cooled hollow turbine blades, titanium alloy long blades die forging, thin disks and slender shaft machining.
In terms of accessories, we have obtained 9 kinds of new accessories technology achievements, such as high energy electric nozzle and gas core booster fuel pump.

Your WS-9 itself is an unauthorised copy of the Rolls Royce RB -168 Mk 202 which in turn was certified only in 2007 to power your JH-7A. And that's what I meant earlier when I wrote the only expertise China has is in stealing & copying .

Do not come up with failed programs or programs shut down for various reasons. If the WS-6 was successful it'd been powering your J-7s which again was a rip off of the MiG -21s.

The reason you went in for imports of the Rolls Royce RB -168 Mk 202 was because your WS-6 was going nowhere. Weibo may be full of stories on how China was on the verge of a breakthrough in the 1960s or 1970s itself with the WS-6 but this isn't Weibo where we let propaganda rule. Out here or in any other part of the FREE WORLD as opposed to CCP controlled Zhongghuo questions will be asked & the project will be deemed a failure irrespective of whatever propaganda you wish to disseminate .

Incidentally , you took all of 3 decades to overcome all the production related problems of it given the Soviets didn't provide you with all the engineering drawings & designs of the MiG -21 & came out with a relatively good iteration of the MiG-21 only in the 1990s.

We designed & produced the Marut way back in the 1960s when you were busy ASSEMBLING as opposed to designing the MiG 15 , the MiG -17 & MiG -19s right thru the late 1950s to the 1970s. Do you see us mentioning this bit of fact to brag out here ? No , you won't coz unlike you we don't suffer from an inferiority complex . The Marut is deemed a failure coz it didn't live up to the goals we set it for various reasons . It was a failed project which held a lot of promises but from we which we learnt a lot in the good old fashioned honest way which means no stealing or copying of technology .

 

[_Anonymous_]

If 20 years ago, you said this and people still believed it, but now, sorry, I think the Indians better pray for the Americans to give you the F414 technology, but I think with HAL's ability, it will probably still be the same as the AL-31, claiming to build the F414 from scratch, but not learning any technology.

The Americans aren't giving us any VITAL technology which means they aren't sharing FULL ToT but whatever they're sharing will go a long way in boosting our manufacturing prowess for when we manufacture indigenous Turbo Fans.

It's good that the Chinese think HAL is ineffective . Such condescending attitudes only help when the war across the LAC happens which it will in a decade likely before.

Finally since when does an Indian seek the validation of a yellow man ? We don't even give a damn to the west & you think we'd care for the Chinese ??? The Japanese or the South Koreans maybe for their technical knowledge but the Chinese ???!??

All along the 2000 years of history it's you who've been seeking our validation which is why Buddhism spread to China & Chinese students came out here to study the Dhamma not to spread Confucianism or Daoism out here just as you're out here on an Indian forum to seek our validation using a VPN & Indians don't bother with Chinese forums for China itself doesn't occupy our imagination in the way a Japan or the west does . ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT.

 

[_Anonymous_]

save some of your IQ, China only really sign the development contract in 1996, but the actual arrival of the matter after 2000, there are 24 su30MK2 orders signed in 2003, the actual conflict between China and Russia is mainly J11A, China refused to produce 200. Only 105 J-11A were produced, and they turned down the Russian SU27SK3(I can't remember the exact model) and decided to produce the J-11B themselves

Look wumao , read up your original post where you claimed that the Su 30 MKK deal was signed in the 2000s with NO REFERENCES OR CITATIONS. I corrected you WITH REFERENCES & CITATIONS.

Learn to be more honest . As it is the Han dont enjoy any credibility whatsoever either in India or anywhere in the world. Save or try to save whatever little of your tattered reputation you can .

 

[LX1111]

Your WS-9 itself is an unauthorised copy of the Rolls Royce RB -168 Mk 202 which in turn was certified only in 2007 to power your JH-7A. And that's what I meant earlier when I wrote the only expertise China has is in stealing & copying .

Do not come up with failed programs or programs shut down for various reasons. If the WS-6 was successful it'd been powering your J-7s which again was a rip off of the MiG -21s.

The reason you went in for imports of the Rolls Royce RB -168 Mk 202 was because your WS-6 was going nowhere. Weibo may be full of stories on how China was on the verge of a breakthrough in the 1960s or 1970s itself with the WS-6 but this isn't Weibo where we let propaganda rule. Out here or in any other part of the FREE WORLD as opposed to CCP controlled Zhongghuo questions will be asked & the project will be deemed a failure irrespective of whatever propaganda you wish to disseminate .

Incidentally , you took all of 3 decades to overcome all the production related problems of it given the Soviets didn't provide you with all the engineering drawings & designs of the MiG -21 & came out with a relatively good iteration of the MiG-21 only in the 1990s.

We designed & produced the Marut way back in the 1960s when you were busy ASSEMBLING as opposed to designing the MiG 15 , the MiG -17 & MiG -19s right thru the late 1950s to the 1970s. Do you see us mentioning this bit of fact to brag out here ? No , you won't coz unlike you we don't suffer from an inferiority complex . The Marut is deemed a failure coz it didn't live up to the goals we set it for various reasons . It was a failed project which held a lot of promises but from we which we learnt a lot in the good old fashioned honest way which means no stealing or copying of technology .

Oh, forget it? The target aircraft of WS-6 has never been J-7, but J-13 which was once popular. Did I deny that China introduced RR's Spey engine? We just bought it and built it from scratch, but unlike India, we are serious.

 

[LX1111]

The reason you went in for imports of the Rolls Royce RB -168 Mk 202 was because your WS-6 was going nowhere. Weibo may be full of stories on how China was on the verge of a breakthrough in the 1960s or 1970s itself with the WS-6 but this isn't Weibo where we let propaganda rule. Out here or in any other part of the FREE WORLD as opposed to CCP controlled Zhongghuo questions will be asked & the project will be deemed a failure irrespective of whatever propaganda you wish to disseminate .

Incidentally , you took all of 3 decades to overcome all the production related problems of it given the Soviets didn't provide you with all the engineering drawings & designs of the MiG -21 & came out with a relatively good iteration of the MiG-21 only in the 1990s.

We designed & produced the Marut way back in the 1960s when you were busy ASSEMBLING as opposed to designing the MiG 15 , the MiG -17 & MiG -19s right thru the late 1950s to the 1970s. Do you see us mentioning this bit of fact to brag out here ? No , you won't coz unlike you we don't suffer from an inferiority complex . The Marut is deemed a failure coz it didn't live up to the goals we set it for various reasons . It was a failed project which held a lot of promises but from we which we learnt a lot in the good old fashioned honest way which means no stealing or copying of technology

I found out why Indian religion is so complicated. Indians are too good at sophistry.

The Americans aren't giving us any VITAL technology which means they aren't sharing FULL ToT but whatever they're sharing will go a long way in boosting our manufacturing prowess for when we manufacture indigenous Turbo Fans.

It's good that the Chinese think HAL is ineffective . Such condescending attitudes only help when the war across the LAC happens which it will in a decade likely before.

Finally since when does an Indian seek the validation of a yellow man ? We don't even give a damn to the west & you think we'd care for the Chinese ??? The Japanese or the South Koreans maybe for their technical knowledge but the Chinese ???!??

All along the 2000 years of history it's you who've been seeking our validation which is why Buddhism spread to China & Chinese students came out here to study the Dhamma not to spread Confucianism or Daoism out here just as you're out here on an Indian forum to seek our validation using a VPN & Indians don't bother with Chinese forums for China itself doesn't occupy our imagination in the way a Japan or the west does . ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT.

Ah, you said it well, full of the confidence of a Hindu fan, but this kind of confidence cannot build aircraft engines.

Look wumao , read up your original post where you claimed that the Su 30 MKK deal was signed in the 2000s with NO REFERENCES OR CITATIONS. I corrected you WITH REFERENCES & CITATIONS.

Learn to be more honest . As it is the Han dont enjoy any credibility whatsoever either in India or anywhere in the world. Save or try to save whatever little of your tattered reputation you can .

I don't know what reputation we have, at least in the Russian forums I attend, India is already a joke

 

[LX1111]

Your WS-9 itself is an unauthorised copy of the Rolls Royce RB -168 Mk 202 which in turn was certified only in 2007 to power your JH-7A. And that's what I meant earlier when I wrote the only expertise China has is in stealing & copying .

Do not come up with failed programs or programs shut down for various reasons. If the WS-6 was successful it'd been powering your J-7s which again was a rip off of the MiG -21s.

The reason you went in for imports of the Rolls Royce RB -168 Mk 202 was because your WS-6 was going nowhere. Weibo may be full of stories on how China was on the verge of a breakthrough in the 1960s or 1970s itself with the WS-6 but this isn't Weibo where we let propaganda rule. Out here or in any other part of the FREE WORLD as opposed to CCP controlled Zhongghuo questions will be asked & the project will be deemed a failure irrespective of whatever propaganda you wish to disseminate .

Incidentally , you took all of 3 decades to overcome all the production related problems of it given the Soviets didn't provide you with all the engineering drawings & designs of the MiG -21 & came out with a relatively good iteration of the MiG-21 only in the 1990s.

We designed & produced the Marut way back in the 1960s when you were busy ASSEMBLING as opposed to designing the MiG 15 , the MiG -17 & MiG -19s right thru the late 1950s to the 1970s. Do you see us mentioning this bit of fact to brag out here ? No , you won't coz unlike you we don't suffer from an inferiority complex . The Marut is deemed a failure coz it didn't live up to the goals we set it for various reasons . It was a failed project which held a lot of promises but from we which we learnt a lot in the good old fashioned honest way which means no stealing or copying of technology .

Hey, in the eyes of Indians, probably everything in China is copied. Of course, that's fine, but what about WS-15? In this world, how many companies can produce a fourth-generation low bypass ratio high thrust engine comparable to the F119? Is it the French Snecma company that Indians worship as a god? Who did WS-15 copy? What is the result of Indians' self-reliance? Any reasonable person can see that India is actually very dependent on Western technology transfer.

The reason you went in for imports of the Rolls Royce RB -168 Mk 202 was because your WS-6 was going nowhere. Weibo may be full of stories on how China was on the verge of a breakthrough in the 1960s or 1970s itself with the WS-6 but this isn't Weibo where we let propaganda rule. Out here or in any other part of the FREE WORLD as opposed to CCP controlled Zhongghuo questions will be asked & the project will be deemed a failure irrespective of whatever propaganda you wish to disseminate

To be honest, the actual situation is much more complicated than the Indians think. The Spey engine has never been a backup for the WS-6. Of course, from today's perspective, the WS-6 has many design problems and was not installed on the aircraft for test flights. But the reason for its cancellation was actually the large-scale military spending cuts and chaotic military industry situation in China during the Deng Xiaoping period. As for the Spey engine, China introduced it in 1976, but it was not until 1999 that the project for imitation was launched. At that time, a large amount of original data and parts had been lost. As for why, it is very simple. The PLAAF did not want the JH-7 at that time. Only a few JH-7s were deployed in the navy, and the number would not exceed 50. Naturally, there was no motivation to imitate the Spey engine. A small amount of imports from the UK could meet the demand. As for why it was imitated later, it was with the emergence of the Taiwan crisis in the Jiang Zemin era and the reorganization of the military industry that the Spey engine began to be imitated. However, at this time, it had been 15 years since the WS-6 engine stopped developing, and the WS-10 in this case was already in the bench test.

 

[randomradio]

Well, I told you, Indians don't really know about China, China has about 200 J-11B and about 100 J-11BS using WS-10 engines, that's about 600, China also has about 300 J-16s, that's also 600, plus 4-6 batches of J-10C, that's about 120. also to the J-10S/A to replace the WS-10 from al31, I said that China has about 1200 WS-10 is actually said less

There seems to be a translation error. I was not counting the number of engines, only aircraft. The numbers I stated are pretty much what you said.

600/2 = 300+ J-16s.

Total PLAAF fleet = 1500 to 1600 J-10s, J-11s and J-16s.

Your J-10C numbers are off. There are at least 200+, not 120.

So out of 1600 jets, only about 400 jets have imported engines. And I didn't count imported jets.

So there's roughly about 1300 WS-10s operational, not counting J-20, which is another 300 additional engines at the minimum.

 

[randomradio]

If 20 years ago, you said this and people still believed it, but now, sorry, I think the Indians better pray for the Americans to give you the F414 technology, but I think with HAL's ability, it will probably still be the same as the AL-31, claiming to build the F414 from scratch, but not learning any technology.

We have a plan to use Indian components in F414 a few years after production begins in India.

AL-31FP comes with 76% Indian components and F414 will come with 80%. There is a project to replace the remaining 24% with Indian components on AL-31FP, which is awaiting certification from Russia. And the same for the remaining 20% in F414.

Apart from that, there's a much larger program for AMCA. A development partner will be chosen amongst the US, France and UK. This engine will come with 100% ToT.

Then there's our own Kaveri engine development.

 

[randomradio]

You didn't think China had just one WS-10, did you? Have you heard of the WS-6? Have you heard of the WS-9?
Even though the WS-10 only refers to the AL-31 in the afterburner, its main structure is still a further development of the WS-6, and uses the F101 core engine, and references parts of the WS-9 design
The Chinese-made WS-6 made a 24-hour bench test in 1984 and reached 12 tons of thrust, much further than the current Indian engine, although the WS-6 was eventually discontinued due to funding cuts. However, it has trained talents for Chinese engines and accumulated a lot of experience.
View attachment 35257

In terms of new materials, 15 new material technology achievements have been made, such as titanium alloy, superalloy and graphite sealing.
In terms of new processes, 17 technological breakthroughs have been made, such as air-cooled hollow turbine blades, titanium alloy long blades die forging, thin disks and slender shaft machining.
In terms of accessories, we have obtained 9 kinds of new accessories technology achievements, such as high energy electric nozzle and gas core booster fuel pump.

India also made such engines using foreign tech.

WS-5 is based on a Soviet engine.
WS-9 is a British engine.
WS-10 is a mix of American core and Russian afterburner.

The first proper Chinese engine is WS-15, at least based on what we know today.

 

[randomradio]

I don't know what reputation we have, at least in the Russian forums I attend, India is already a joke

The business world doesn't think so. They want to set up aircraft factories in India. Even the Russians.

 

[LX1111]

There seems to be a translation error. I was not counting the number of engines, only aircraft. The numbers I stated are pretty much what you said.

600/2 = 300+ J-16s.

Total PLAAF fleet = 1500 to 1600 J-10s, J-11s and J-16s.

Your J-10C numbers are off. There are at least 200+, not 120.

So out of 1600 jets, only about 400 jets have imported engines. And I didn't count imported jets.

So there's roughly about 1300 WS-10s operational, not counting J-20, which is another 300 additional engines at the minimum.

First of all, you ignored the number of J-11Bs, there are about 300 of them, and they all use WS-10. This engine really matured after accumulating a lot of flight time on the J-11B.
You may not understand what I mean. I mean the 4th to 6th batches of J-10C, a number of about 120, they use WS-10 engines, and the earlier J-10C fighters use AL31FN
That is to say, there are about 700 aircraft using domestic engines.
As an aside, I found that many Indians habitually confuse all Chinese Flanker fighters before the J-16, and it seems that no one can tell the difference between the J-11a and the J-11b.
It can be said that the Su-27 is an aircraft whose radar, missiles and electronic countermeasures equipment are behind the times, so China will copy the J-11B on its own.

 

[LX1111]

We have a plan to use Indian components in F414 a few years after production begins in India.

AL-31FP comes with 76% Indian components and F414 will come with 80%. There is a project to replace the remaining 24% with Indian components on AL-31FP, which is awaiting certification from Russia. And the same for the remaining 20% in F414.

Apart from that, there's a much larger program for AMCA. A development partner will be chosen amongst the US, France and UK. This engine will come with 100% ToT.

Then there's our own Kaveri engine development.

We have a plan to use Indian components in F414 a few years after production begins in India.

AL-31FP comes with 76% Indian components and F414 will come with 80%. There is a project to replace the remaining 24% with Indian components on AL-31FP, which is awaiting certification from Russia. And the same for the remaining 20% in F414.

Apart from that, there's a much larger program for AMCA. A development partner will be chosen amongst the US, France and UK. This engine will come with 100% ToT.

Then there's our own Kaveri engine development.

Is there any official proof of these data? I don't remember that the Indian government has released such detailed data. I have only seen a table showing that about 60% of the Su30 is produced in India.

 

[Ashwin]

Is there any official proof of these data? I don't remember that the Indian government has released such detailed data. I have only seen a table showing that about 60% of the Su30 is produced in India.

Damn, look who is asking proof.

We should take serial numbers and propaganda as proof but others need to show "official" data.