Pralay and Shaurya: Conventional Strike Surface-to-Surface Missiles

[randomradio]

I am more dissatisfied with MoD .

Atleast I get some consolation from Random radio if it's too depressing.

It's not difficult to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

The IN's deals are still ongoing, and even the new ones and upcoming ones are progressing as quickly as possible. They don't need emergency procurement in large amounts. So their funding needs are scheduled.

IA and IAF's requirements are unscheduled. They are just winging it, filling up holes the best they can. They are sacrificing long term stability for quick results, the army in particular.

Army’s 4th round of emergency procurement to be from India

Army Chief Gen. Manoj Pande said in the last three to four years indigenous contracts have grown almost three times.

www.thehindu.com

The Army, which has made three tranches of Emergency Procurements (EP) in the last few years, is preparing for a fourth round of EP which will be entirely from the domestic industry, Army Chief Gen. Manoj Pande said on October 20.

“Emergency Procurements are done to address critical operational requirements. Three tranches of EPs were executed under which 68 contracts worth ₹6000 crores were placed. We are now in the 4th EP for indigenous equipment. Our industry has risen to the challenge,” Gen. Pande said speaking on the sidelines of the DefExpo-2022.

So 68 contracts were signed right under our noses. And that's the army alone. That 6000Cr was enough to launch something like the FICV, but it's obviously no longer the priority.

Armed forces working on 100 emergency procurement contracts amid tensions with China

Army is in process of procuring armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding sabot ammunition fired by T-72, T-90 main battle tanks, additional Heron drones and mines, among other things.

theprint.in

The threat from China is real. Last year too, they got an additional Rs 10,000 crore,” he said.

Kohli added that the forces have, in the last few years, not surrendered any funds from the capital budget, which shows that a lot of procurement is being done.

As mentioned in the article, these types of procurements have been going on since Uri in 2016. So, in 2019, they got 10000Cr, followed by unknown amounts in the last 3 years.

Army Concluded 118 Contracts Worth Rs 16,000 Crore Over 12 To 15 Months Using Fast-track Procurement Procedure: Army Chief

"Such a large volume has never been done in a year, year and a half period," Army Chief General M M Naravane said at India Defence Conclave.

swarajyamag.com

"Over the last year, powers were delegated to the services to carry out certain fast-track procurements under the provisions which exist in the Defence acquisition procedure or the DAP... We were able to conclude 118 contracts, worth more than Rs 16,000 crore, in a period of just 12 to 15 months, with delivery periods of one year from the signing of the contracts," the Chief of Army Staff told the gathering.

"Such a large volume has never been done in a year, year and a half period," Army Chief General Naravane said at the event.

"A majority of this, more than 55 per cent of this, is for indigenous contracts and indigenous content. More than 50 per cent of that has gone to MSMEs [Micro, Small & Medium Enterprises] (sic)," the Army Chief said.

Then we have new ones coming up--
Logistics drones:

Indian Army issues RFP for procurement of 363 drones

While 163 drones will be for high-altitude regions, 200 are being procured for use in medium-altitude areas, officials said

www.deccanherald.com

Surveillance drones for the Paras:

Army issues emergency procurement tender for 750 drones for Para Special Forces

Indian Army has issued a tender for the procurement of 750 remotely piloted aerial vehicles under fast-track procedures under the emergency procurement powers.

www.aninews.in

BPJs for CI ops:

Army issues tenders to buy 62,500 BPJs for protection against steel core bullets

The Indian Army has issued tenders for acquiring 62,500 BPJs for its frontline troops which would protect them from steel core bullets.

thekashmirwalla.com

We still do not know the scale of this type of procurement. Here's an example.

Why has the government granted emergency powers to defence forces to procure weapons and how will this work?

The government has granted emergency powers to the defence forces to procure weapon systems via the ‘Make in India’ route amid tensions with China that linger for over two years. These powers have been invoked in recent times to upgrade, and indigenise, military arsenal in a timebound manner...

www.timesnownews.com

Revised estimates in the budget documents shared earlier this year show that the armed forces spent over ₹21,000 crore on top of last year’s budget allocation amid the tensions at the Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China. In 2021, the armed forces spent ₹20,776 crore on the emergency purchase of weapons and systems to beef up its capabilities at the northern border.

That's capital budget + 21000 Cr in just 1 year. And unlike what Ignorants would like you to believe, him being stuck in 2022, we will still be in FY2023 until March end. So we are talking big bucks in procurement that was never done before within this year alone. And 2023 should more or less be a repeat of 2022.

My personal date for achieving readiness was the summer of 2023, ie, we will be ready to fight China by then, I have to revise that to Sept 2023 to cater for delays, particularly due to both the sanctions on Russia and supply issues due to the war. We are definitely way better than we were back in 2020. I believe that if China wants to attack us, it will happen in either the end of 2023 or the summer of 2024, during election season. So we have that much time to get through with emergency procurements.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Trust @Sathya to land such a devastating punch couched in such dulcet tones. Seems the taunt has hit its mark . Damn ! This is perhaps what's meant by zor ka jhatka dheere se laage . Story teller has gone into an overdrive trying to explain how 2022 is the best thing in the world after mom's home cooked food while subtly shifting to 2023 territory.

In the event , just to clarify to other readers , Sathya was referring to the big ticket purchases manchild here was promising everybody would materialize in 2022 .

What we're been given instead are long pending ammo replenishments , new requirements viz : supporting platforms like drones , etc all thoroughly stuck in bureaucratic red tape now cleared vide EPs which is being spun here as some monumental achievement by you know who .

It's like being promised a Jaguar & asked to be content with a Baleno with the justification of the Baleno being better than the Jaguar now in the process of unfolding.

SOP since 2015.

Some things never change . For every thing else there's mastercard .

 

[_Anonymous_]

India’s Coming ‘Rocket Force’

While on the topic of Pralay & Shaurya & our rocket forces , time to plug in what S Jha wrote a year back & check how far we've come .

Now these are the kind of stories I love reading. Realistic & to the point instead of the fantastic fairy tales we're subjected to by you know who out here.


@Rajput Lion ; @Sathya ; @Ankit Kumar

 

[Ankit Kumar]

India’s Coming ‘Rocket Force’

While on the topic of Pralay & Shaurya & our rocket forces , time to plug in what S Jha wrote a year back & check how far we've come .

Now these are the kind of stories I love reading. Realistic & to the point instead of the fantastic fairy tales we're subjected to by you know who out here.


@Rajput Lion ; @Sathya ; @Ankit Kumar

From 2026-27, imo the effects of Agniveer programs, and reduction in non combat numbers and overall improvement in our economy... That's the time, when once the basic structure is up, large numbers of capital purchases for Army will start going through.

Learn from the structures of Chinese and failures of Russia.

 

[_Anonymous_]

From 2026-27, imo the effects of Agniveer programs, and reduction in non combat numbers and overall improvement in our economy... That's the time, when once the basic structure is up, large numbers of capital purchases for Army will start going through.

Learn from the structures of Chinese and failures of Russia.

One of the problems of the Agniveer program apart from the duration itself is the depletion in the numbers of the IA which includes fighting men . Moreover we haven't recruited in the IA since 2020 which has straight away registered a drop of 1 lakh personnel . Our so called opposition instead of raising bread butter & security issues like these are busy in Bharat Chxdho yatra.


In any case the effects of the Agniveer program will be seen only from 2030 onwards.

Tale of 2 Agniveer suicides and India's unemployed. ‘I can die even for 4-day uniform'

Ever since the Army started the Agnipath recruitment process, instances of aspirants ending their lives have been cropping up with depressing regularity.

theprint.in

That's one of the cardinal sins we can't afford to commit in mountain warfare. We can probably withstand a weakening of the IAF during a conflict or depleted IAF before it , while taking a lot of damage to infrastructure & the IA with the Chinese from 2030 onwards.

What we can't afford is a double whammy of fighting a defensive war with a depleted IAF & equally depleted IA.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

One of the problems of the Agniveer program apart from the duration itself is the depletion in the numbers of the IA which includes fighting men .

That's one of the cardinal sins we can't afford to commit in mountain warfare. We can probably withstand a weakening of the IAF during a conflict or depleted IAF before it , while taking a lot of damage to infrastructure & the IA with the Chinese from 2030 onwards.

What we can't afford is a double whammy of fighting a defensive war with a depleted IAF & equally depleted IA.

There will be issues, but it won't be in the capability of fighting men. The estimated numbers are that we still will have 7 lakh full members and 5 lakh Agniveers.

7 lakh members will be more than enough to handle everything which requires more experience. While skills which are quickly transferrable, will be given to Agniveer guys.

We should be actually looking forward to women. That's half the population we are ignoring. Atleast 20% of them are gonna outperform the guys in many fields.

Senior guys have accepted that they are expecting issues, which may arise say a decade down the line, but the rational given by them is that in a decade we will have a lot more resources at our hands.

The Airforce is run by Brazilian parrots who are just happy to look at their own images in the mirror and be happy. I won't comment on IAF.

 

[marich01]

Realistically, what weapon assets should be there in a rocket force? Asking this cos I saw some uproar about a tweet that smerch systems will be transferred to rocket force from the arty section.

 

[_Anonymous_]

There will be issues, but it won't be in the capability of fighting men. The estimated numbers are that we still will have 7 lakh full members and 5 lakh Agniveers.

7 lakh members will be more than enough to handle everything which requires more experience. While skills which are quickly transferrable, will be given to Agniveer guys.

I just hope that's the case . @Hellfire tweeted long ago that the Agniveer wouldn't be exclusively for supporting functions which means they're be part of combat troops too .

We should be actually looking forward to women. That's half the population we are ignoring. Atleast 20% of them are gonna outperform the guys in many fields.

And how're we going to accomodate them or rather where ? Isn't it bad enough the armed forces had to dilute it's recruitment & training standards to cater to the "progressive"agenda of the SC notably CJI Chandrachuth for equal opportunity employment ?

Senior guys have accepted that they are expecting issues, which may arise say a decade down the line, but the rational given by them is that in a decade we will have a lot more resources at our hands.

You'd have to elaborate on it .

The Airforce is run by Brazilian parrots who are just happy to look at their own images in the mirror and be happy. I won't comment on IAF.

Frankly I really can't understand what the IAFs thinking ? The other 2 services are getting their act together somewhat by 2030 . It's only the IAF which is a cause of great worry .

It's either that or they have some aces up their sleeves which we ordinary mortals have no clue about. Let's hope for our sake & theirs it's the latter .

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I just hope that's the case . @Hellfire tweeted long ago that the Agniveer wouldn't be exclusively for supporting functions which means they're be part of combat troops too .



And how're we going to accomodate them or rather where ? Isn't it bad enough the armed forces had to dilute it's recruitment & training standards to cater to the "progressive"agenda of the SC notably CJI Chandrachuth for equal opportunity employment ?



You'd have to elaborate on it .



Frankly I really can't understand what the IAFs thinking ? The other 2 services are getting their act together somewhat by 2030 . It's only the IAF which is a cause of great worry .

It's either that or they have some aces up their sleeves which we ordinary mortals have no clue about. Let's hope for our sake & theirs it's the latter .

All we can do is wait and watch.

 

[marich01]

IAF case is perplexing possibly because out of the services reform & aatmanirbharta they are the only service that is bound to lose the most. With a joint command, it will be the army invariably that will take a major commanding role at the HQ. Similarly, with indigenous push for aerospace sector, Govt will push for tejas amca etc thereby stripping IAF of the chance to procure the one & only thing they desire the most: MRFA foreign jets in huge numbers. Maybe this is why they are so twitchy about MRFA & was very much against joint command structure. Navy & Army imo do not have this problem as both are set in their land & sea domain very well. Unlike usa doctrine, ours is not very reliant on aerospace strike force concept where air power take huge importance.
So IAF is currently in between rock & hard place. Not giving major order for desi jets yet, MRFA stuck, Govt not interested in import long term, serious shortage in service assets, might lose own command structure to Joint forces if a reform happens & in that case they have to take command from the Army which is sort of insulting for any existing independent command structure. Forget China Pakistan, this is enough multi front problem for IAF right now.

 

[randomradio]

Lol, the process of creating an entirely new capability started in 2022 and Ignorants is still ranting about nothing happening yet, completely living up to his name, Ignorants.

Indian Army to deploy Pralay missiles along China, Pakistan borders: All you need to know - CNBC TV18

India Army to deploy Pralay missiles along China border: All you need to know about the missile

www.cnbctv18.com

India To Build Tunnels In Border States To Store Short-Range Missiles As Rocket Force Takes Shape

India is planning to build multi-purpose tunnels in border states to store land-based short-range tactical missiles

swarajyamag.com

 

[Tatvamasi]

Why cant these gentlemen tag each other's reply?

Newcomers would be confused!

 

[randomradio]

IAF case is perplexing possibly because out of the services reform & aatmanirbharta they are the only service that is bound to lose the most. With a joint command, it will be the army invariably that will take a major commanding role at the HQ. Similarly, with indigenous push for aerospace sector, Govt will push for tejas amca etc thereby stripping IAF of the chance to procure the one & only thing they desire the most: MRFA foreign jets in huge numbers. Maybe this is why they are so twitchy about MRFA & was very much against joint command structure. Navy & Army imo do not have this problem as both are set in their land & sea domain very well. Unlike usa doctrine, ours is not very reliant on aerospace strike force concept where air power take huge importance.
So IAF is currently in between rock & hard place. Not giving major order for desi jets yet, MRFA stuck, Govt not interested in import long term, serious shortage in service assets, might lose own command structure to Joint forces if a reform happens & in that case they have to take command from the Army which is sort of insulting for any existing independent command structure. Forget China Pakistan, this is enough multi front problem for IAF right now.

The IAF is fine. Only Derby ER induction is pending or in the process. They are fine with everything else.

The only possibility of a war with China is before any Taiwan invasion and it will only be a largely army-centric border war with the IAF playing a supporting role. If it doesn't happen this decade then we won't have anything much until China gets to America's level after 2040.

IAF's long term deals cater to the environment well after 2030. So it's all irrelevant to today's situation. The only thing that matters is what the emergency procurement system gives us before China attacks. We pretty much have everything we need for that. For example, by May we will have received all our MRSAMs, Akash Mk1As, fully-rigged Rafales and 3 regiments of S-400.

What's more important is the army, and we can only hope they are ready. Particularly their comm network. It's supposed to be scheduled to end 2023, but ITI claims they are well ahead of schedule.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/big-boost-for-indian-armys-communation-network-to-get-upgraded-ascon/2096560/

But even more important is how our civilian infrastructure will hold. Do you really want to go to war with China while sitting in the dark? A lot of effort has been put into protecting power plants and hubs from cyber attacks, even the financial sector. An army of cyber sleuths have been raised over the last few years. New underground bunkers have been built to protect crucial civilians and technologies. There's a new bunker even for the stock market's servers.

Here's one from this month:

Security in place to secure India’s nuclear power plants from cyber-attacks: Singh

Several measures have been taken to strengthen information security in administrative networks in nuclear power plants like, hardening of internet and administrative intranet connectivity, restriction on removable media, blocking of websites & IPs

www.livemint.com

Another important change is setting up robust comm systems for standalone 5G, which Jio is expected to implement by the end of 2023, although all the important areas will be covered in just a few more months. China can't attack something they know nothing of.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The entire post pre supposes that this is 1962 redux with the PLA coming down to fight a war with only the IA with no supporting measures whatsoever & the only supporting measures will be just that - in peripheral roles.

Well my simple query is what happens in case the PLA plans come to nought ? Will they just pack up & go back ? Will Beijing countenance such a defeat ? Will Xi who's riding a tiger as of now be able to survive such a situation ?

Let's flip the situation around , assuming this invasion occurs in the next couple of yrs and it goes badly for India , can Modi survive such a defeat ? Horizontal & Vertical escalation is inbuilt into any Sino Indian war matrix whenever it happens .

One thing anyone can be sure of what starts at the LAC won't be confined to it nor will end there . Meanwhile for those seeking solace , do continue to read dairy & fairy tales by resident story teller .

 

[randomradio]

We have always had the ability to fight a one-front war with either adversary. We do today too. We don't have the ability to fight two countries simultaneously.

We can fight a long war, but we can't afford one. It will cost billions of dollars a day and requires US/EU funding. But a long war is pointless. If the PLAGF fails to breach Indian defences, then they will have to stop and sell some minor victories to their people as a win. China can financially afford a long war, but can't afford the casualties.

 

[_Anonymous_]

A 2 front war will turn Nuclear. There's no way any GoI will sit back & fight a 2 front conventional war defending territory without running the risk of losing it on one or both fronts.

We can't afford a short war too . If PLA fails in it's endeavour the presiding general faces the firing squad . It's either that or Xi his family & clique disappear in a coup . I think it's clear what the outcome will be once it's clear what's on stake.

China is fast getting into a position & psyching itself up to be able to accept both casualties & burning money to sustain these long wars .

 

[randomradio]

No one can afford war by default. But affordability is relative. A short war is just 3 months long, a long war can go well beyond 6 months to even years. We can afford the former because not only do we have the funds for it, we will also get material and financial aid from the West.

A long war is improbable because if the PLAGF fails to breach Indian defence lines, then adding more bodies to the tally won't help. The Chinese won't start a war unless they are sure they can take some land to show off later.

A 2-front war is improbable right now due to the state of Pakistan's economy.

Another factor that prevents the possibility of a 2-front war is nukes. A nuclear war between India and China is improbable to borderline impossible, because there's no point in doing that. A nuclear war makes sense only when conventional war has become an existential threat to either party. A border war is not one. Otoh, an Indo-Pak war can become nuclear, even if I personally don't believe it will, and China will not want to risk being involved in such a fight. A 2-front war is bad for Pak too, because it will invite the same sanctions imposed on China by the international community.

 

[_Anonymous_]

We'd get money & materials even if the war last years assuming it does which I don't think it will . Isn't the west still supporting Ukraine with money & materials 10 months into the war with no signs of a stoppage .

They'd rather do that than face the Chinese in the SCS or ECS . It's more economical that way for them to degrade Chinese capabilities beyond a point where it can't contemplate an invasion of Taiwan for another decade at least & they don't lose anything except money & materials . It's a win win situation for the US & it's allies - a Godsend .

If the PLA fail to breach Indian defences that's where they will up the escalation ladder & widen the scope of the war whereas if things go badly for us we may not be able to do as much and that's the real danger here .

A 2 front war is also impossible coz whatever BS the GoP , Paxtanis & fauji foundation spout in the mass media deep down they're more than aware that those Indian N weapons may be to deter China but it's certainly going to be used against Pakistan if push comes to shove. That's what GHQ Pindi boys in brown shalwars fear the most .

There's another reason why I think a 2 front war would be unlikely & that is the US leaning on Pakistan to stay out of the picture .

 

[randomradio]

A nuclear war between India and Pak will only destroy our present, but it will destroy Pak's present and future. Apart from becoming a global pariah, even their civilians will become legitimate military targets, and that includes the families of servicemen. It's not just the fear of death, taken to a public trial or being denied entry into neutral countries as refugees, it's also the fear that even their families will be treated like them, perhaps even worse. Otoh, a non-nuclear war would see Pak breaking up and most of the military junta escaping to other countries as the worst case scenario. Everybody lives.

I'm not confident about the West funding India endlessly, and without strings attached. After a point, we may have to stop taking all the aid ourselves, because their conditions will have become difficult to meet. Unlike in Ukraine, the West will demand exclusive long term market access and that will cripple our future, like it did for Japan, all for a dumb border war only 'cause we are a few more years away from being able to afford one.

Unlike the Russians with their B or C grade game in Ukraine, with the ability to escalate as necessary, the PLA will bring their A game right from the start. If that doesn't help them breach our defences, then escalation only means attacking Indian cities next. It's pointless 'cause it won't change the situation at the border. Our logistics chain will consist of diesel trains and trucks, so attacking our power hubs will bring their own power hubs under attack.

Regardless of the PLA's performance in the Himalayas, it won't affect their Taiwan plans because their theatre commands are self-contained. The PLA has been designed to fight multiple wars across multiple fronts at the same time. So the forces exposed to India won't be the same as the ones facing Taiwan.

The only real advantage the West has is if the PLA suffers a loss against India, they will have to push back their Taiwan plans because of poor performance. This will serve to weaken the PLA's prestige and help the US buy more time to modernise.

 

[_Anonymous_]

On the one hand we're led to believe the invading forces across the Himalayas need a 5:1 - 7:1 advantage to succeed & on the other hand we've seen a downsizing / right sizing of the PLA .

It's another matter that most of them have been absorbed by the border Militia but even with induction of local Tibetans as foot soldiers & rapid rotation of troops due to climatic conditions & ensuing casualties it stands to reason that this campaign against India will definitely have to involve major components of the other theatre commands as far as air & land assets go & that includes a big chunk of infantry , apart from the rocket forces , cyber command etc .

Since the PLA cannot suffer a loss in the Himalayas given the sheer presence of the IA and supporting elements there , I argue there's an implicit escalation matrix in built into any Sino Indian war & the more it's postponed into the future the bigger it's scope & the more the devastation on both sides with ours bearing the brunt of it .

I repeat anyone seeing this as merely a short sharp high intensity border war is not thinking this one through thoroughly & is way out of his depths.

@Jaymax

You've read Rikhye & plenty of others on this topic . What's your PoV on this ?