Pralay and Shaurya: Conventional Strike Surface-to-Surface Missiles

[_Anonymous_]

^^
While you may continue your debate with Random, there are few of your points I would like to address:

1. Shaurya is nothing but land launched version of K-15 Sagarika. So in a way, it has been in production for years. The current model which has been deployed and entered production is apparently new and more advanced version with more range/speed etc.

2. Pralay is also K-15 Sagarika or Shaurya itself, lol. It is NOT a new missile. The below fin booster which both K-15/Shaurya have got is not there in Pralay.

K-15/Shaurya(you can see the booster below the fins):

View attachment 25838

Pralay(literally the same missile sans the booster):

View attachment 25839

So, what's the point? These missiles were always with us, only now they have become/about to become operational. Why?

Quite possible. Not everything need be in the public domain though what're the numbers we're looking at ? Ideally it should be a minimum of 1000 nos each with something approaching 2000 each to be in the comfort zone .

That's not all , we need production facilities to churn them out by the dozens in war time preparations for which start now .

Now, even though what you say is correct that our focus regarding China was defensive in nature, but after Galwan it has changed now for ever and good. The above is a direct result of that.

And Random is correct because India ain't no Ukraine bro. Any Chinese attack on our civilian/infra or even military target would be met with equal counter fire.

You guys are either not getting what I've written about repeatedly or are pretending not to get it . Where did I compare India to Ukraine ?

Chinese attacks on our hinterland will be met with equal force provided we're in a position to deliver such blows. With 100-200 nos of Pralay & especially Shaurya you really aren't going to put the fear of God in them for they've one of the best networked & layered IADs in service & will shortly be deploying their BMDs in full strength too . Russia's helping with the latter .

At least read the articles of Lt Gen Hooda & AVM Subramanian I've linked where they've highlighted the number of satellites China has In orbit till date not taking into account what they'd be launching from now up until 2030.

Forget about the fact that we can also put conventional warheads in Agni series missiles to hit the 'real China'. Also forget about Shaurya/Pralay. Who's stopping India from attacking mainland China using Su-30MKI and extended range Brahmos combo? Sure if we are upto it, we can find loopholes inside Chinese IADS.

And I think when Random says India has 300 ASF, he means 262 Su-30MKIs + 36 Rafales = 298 fighters. Currently, our most potent fighter is Rafale followed by the Sukhoi. It's this combination of Rafale and Su-30s that our enemies will need to fear, IMO.

Rest, upto Random

How effective is our ASF against a minimum of 800 FAs that can & will be thrown at us come 2030 or even today assuming conflict breaks out in the next couple of months ? The Rafales will be able the hold their own but the MKIs ? What about a whole host of 50-75 FAs flying in repeated sorties where our MKIs are known to require 24 hrs or thereabouts as down time between sorties.

Then there's the issue I started my post with a few days back of massive repeated missile barrages , cyber attacks preceding the air assaults on all our frontline bases upto 100 kms from the LAC perhaps deeper within. Why would they risk facing these FAs in air when they can destroy them on the ground which brings me back to my opening paragraph in this post - how many BMs or TBMs do we plan to have in the next few yrs / have in our inventory till date.

 

[randomradio]

Forget about the fact that we can also put conventional warheads in Agni series missiles to hit the 'real China'. Also forget about Shaurya/Pralay. Who's stopping India from attacking mainland China using Su-30MKI and extended range Brahmos combo? Sure if we are upto it, we can find loopholes inside Chinese IADS.

Apart from our existing conventional ballistic capabilities that can hit China's hinterland, the IAF has dropped hints of buying the Tu-160 as well.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The current IAF expressly ruled out the Tu-160 acquisition in a PC a few months ago when rumours were flying thick & fast we'd go in for half to one squadron of it , yet here we are revisiting the revisited .

 

[Hydra]

^^
While you may continue your debate with Random,
Forget about the fact that we can also put conventional warheads in Agni series missiles to hit the 'real China'. Also forget about Shaurya/Pralay. Who's stopping India from attacking mainland China using Su-30MKI and extended range Brahmos combo? Sure if we are upto it, we can find loopholes inside Chinese IADS.

And I think when Random says India has 300 ASF, he means 262 Su-30MKIs + 36 Rafales = 298 fighters. Currently, our most potent fighter is Rafale followed by the Sukhoi. It's this combination of Rafale and Su-30s that our enemies will need to fear, IMO.

Rest, upto Random

You want to strike chine with A5,with conventional warhead, may be you will have Xi's pvt number so that before launching A5,you will be able to tell him thats its mere a conventional attack, dont use nuke on us.

And mki with ER brahmos cannot hit anywhere inside china.

Mere 36 Rafale cannot inflict fear on china, not on pak too. Its your nukes inflicting fear on china.

 

[_Anonymous_]

For ground attack , we are well underestimating the mirages, which has been flying in LAC for past 2 years seamlessly & possibly the most acclimatized. In any chinky misadventure these will target entire chinese installations in the first go across the LAC.

They're quite good but they lack AESA radars for starters. Scope for ground attack isn't much on the LAC , it's deeper in the hinterland . Mirages lack the endurance i.e - combat radius for that . They'd be used more in a supporting role to the Rafales & MKIs .

The joker in the pack is the MiG-29 UPG. We've no clue how'd they perform ? Apart from these 4 , our cupboard is empty .

 

[Rajput Lion]

Quite possible. Not everything need be in the public domain though what're the numbers we're looking at ? Ideally it should be a minimum of 1000 nos each with something approaching 2000 each to be in the comfort zone .

That's not all , we need production facilities to churn them out by the dozens in war time preparations for which start now .

Absolutely agree. No two ways about what you wrote.

You guys are either not getting what I've written about repeatedly or are pretending not to get it . Where did I compare India to Ukraine ?

Chinese attacks on our hinterland will be met with equal force provided we're in a position to deliver such blows. With 100-200 nos of Pralay & especially Shaurya you really aren't going to put the fear of God in them for they've one of the best networked & layered IADs in service & will shortly be deploying their BMDs in full strength too . Russia's helping with the latter .

At least read the articles of Lt Gen Hooda & AVM Subramanian I've linked where they've highlighted the number of satellites China has In orbit till date not taking into account what they'd be launching from now up until 2030.

Our BMD is superior to Chinese BMD. Within few years, its coverage zone would increase too. And I agree, we need Shaurya/Pralay in thousands.

How effective is our ASF against a minimum of 800 FAs that can & will be thrown at us come 2030 or even today assuming conflict breaks out in the next couple of months ? The Rafales will be able the hold their own but the MKIs ? What about a whole host of 50-75 FAs flying in repeated sorties where our MKIs are known to require 24 hrs or thereabouts as down time between sorties.

What about MKI? Well, it's not as hopeless as often portrayed. Look at the sorties Russians have been able to pull with their Su-30SMs and Su-35S. It's been very impressive.

And about MKI's combat ability as of now? Well it depends. If say I-Derby ER is integrated along with ASRAAM, then MKI will swat Chinese Jets. Very soon, Dhruti along with our own jammers is coming online(contract is already out). MKI's combat potency is going to get a huge leap with the inclusion of this new gen cutting edge RWR/EW suite.

One may say, what's the big deal. But then I would like to draw their attention towards F-22's AN/ALR-94 or Rafale's SPECTRA. Both these self-protection cum advance EW suite are most secretive and arguably most expensive items on both these respective super advance fighter jets.

Our MKI is entering this elite club pretty damn soon.

Then there's the issue I started my post with a few days back of massive repeated missile barrages , cyber attacks preceding the air assaults on all our frontline bases upto 100 kms from the LAC perhaps deeper within. Why would they risk facing these FAs in air when they can destroy them on the ground which brings me back to my opening paragraph in this post - how many BMs or TBMs do we plan to have in the next few yrs / have in our inventory till date.

We have thousands of Prithvi(es)and maybe Brahmos too, to do the same to them if they dare try that at the moment. With Prahaar(Pranash), Pralay and Shaurya, our strength of conventional strike via a dedicated Rocket Force will come to full force within few years from now.

1 on 1, no country in the world can hope to fight and conquer India. India is a military superpower which is NOT to be messed with. Otherwise it won't end well for the other side.

Apart from our existing conventional ballistic capabilities that can hit China's hinterland, the IAF has dropped hints of buying the Tu-160 as well.

Till then, MKI as a mini-bomber shall suffice

You want to strike chine with A5,with conventional warhead, may be you will have Xi's pvt number so that before launching A5,you will be able to tell him thats its mere a conventional attack, dont use nuke on us.

And mki with ER brahmos cannot hit anywhere inside china.

Mere 36 Rafale cannot inflict fear on china, not on pak too. Its your nukes inflicting fear on china.

Welcome back.

They're quite good but they lack AESA radars for starters. Scope for ground attack isn't much on the LAC , it's deeper in the hinterland . Mirages lack the endurance i.e - combat radius for that . They'd be used more in a supporting role to the Rafales & MKIs

Never underestimate the Vajra

.

The joker in the pack is the MiG-29 UPG. We've no clue how'd they perform ? Apart from these 4 , our cupboard is empty .

Very dangerous jet as a ASF fighter. Once R-77-1 and Astra are integrated, even more so.

 

[randomradio]

The MKI needs Derby ER for now. The long term plan is the MLU anyway. We have numbers superiority in this segment. Both Astra Mk2 and Derby ER are undergoing flight tests on the MKI. The only question is if the Rafale + MKI combo can upset the J-20A/B, the IAF believes so.

The IAF Chief may have said something about the Tu-160, but I don't buy that. 'Cause the reasons he gave do not apply to it. Potential disinformation at play here. The only issue is the Russians need to finish their orders first. So it's gonna take a while before it comes up in the news again. Of course, I'd rather see us being offered the PAK DA instead.

The MKI's 32 hours downtime is just a cumulative total required for maintenance over a long period during peacetime.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The MKI needs Derby ER for now. h

According to some sources, integration and flight trials are already complete. No news as of yet about firing. Lets hope we've this missile in substantial numbers when the push comes to shove in the Himalayas.

The long term plan is the MLU anyway. We have numbers superiority in this segment. Both Astra Mk2 and Derby ER are undergoing flight tests on the MKI.

Not only Derby-ER and Astra 2, even ASRAAM is going to be vital. Efficacy of radar guided missiles against VLO fighters is yet to be seen. Yes our future dual pulse missiles have AESA seeker but imaging infrared missiles like ASRAAM and Mica-IR are going to be absolutely vital to swat J-20s.

Rafale with Mica-IR will be a real killer. Chinese won't know what hit them, lol. MKI needs ASRAAM(hopefully the latest block which England has got) and Mica-IR. The new digita-RWR would allow MKI passive targeting. ASRAAM would do a great job in near BVR range(almost 50 kms).

The only question is if the Rafale + MKI combo can upset the J-20A/B, the IAF believes so.

Absolutely. Still remember RKS Bhadauria sir said exactly this when he was in France. We definitely should trust our armed forces than just cribbing about everything.

The IAF Chief may have said something about the Tu-160, but I don't buy that. 'Cause the reasons he gave do not apply to it. Potential disinformation at play here. The only issue is the Russians need to finish their orders first. So it's gonna take a while before it comes up in the news again. Of course, I'd rather see us being offered the PAK DA instead.

As per Russian sources PAK DA is going to be unveiled this year. But TU-160M2 which Russians are getting now has its own advantages being a Mach 2 capable bomber.

IMO, we should have got 114 Rafales by now, shouldn't have dropped out of FGFA and should have joined PAK DA program. Missing all these was serious oversight by our war planners.

The MKI's 32 hours downtime is just a cumulative total required for maintenance over a long period during peacetime.

True. Multiple exercises conducted by IAF have already validated MKI-'s war time availability. In fact, sources within IAF have termed it as 'our two front war ace', after MKI's performance in these exercises. IAF knows what they are talking about along with those who follow them.

 

[Hydra]

The MKI needs Derby ER for now. The long term plan is the MLU anyway. We have numbers superiority in this segment. Both Astra Mk2 and Derby ER are undergoing flight tests on the MKI. The only question is if the Rafale + MKI combo can upset the J-20A/B, the IAF believes so.

The IAF Chief may have said something about the Tu-160, but I don't buy that. 'Cause the reasons he gave do not apply to it. Potential disinformation at play here. The only issue is the Russians need to finish their orders first. So it's gonna take a while before it comes up in the news again. Of course, I'd rather see us being offered the PAK DA instead.

The MKI's 32 hours downtime is just a cumulative total required for maintenance over a long period during peacetime.

Currently Russians have only one type of Bomber in service, its SU34. It is short legged & not survivable too. Yeas technically we can call TU160 a bomber, but it more of a missile carrier, or atleast it performed that role only. What we need a bomber, which can deliver bomblets & missiles, just we seeing with US bombers. Winning a war with missiles alone is impossible, even US will not achieve the objectives with missiles alone. Even the smartest bomb units cost less than the most missiles out there.

So if at all we really want abomber with IAF, instead about with TU or fancy PAK DA (which eventually will be dream only Russian project), we should pursue for second hand B1 or if US willing to sell, B21s. I dont think that US just brought B1 to india during an airshow held here as mere a goodwill gesture or show off.

 

[suryakiran]

Currently Russians have only one type of Bomber in service, its SU34. It is short legged & not survivable too. Yeas technically we can call TU160 a bomber, but it more of a missile carrier, or atleast it performed that role only. What we need a bomber, which can deliver bomblets & missiles, just we seeing with US bombers. Winning a war with missiles alone is impossible, even US will not achieve the objectives with missiles alone. Even the smartest bomb units cost less than the most missiles out there.

So if at all we really want abomber with IAF, instead about with TU or fancy PAK DA (which eventually will be dream only Russian project), we should pursue for second hand B1 or if US willing to sell, B21s. I dont think that US just brought B1 to india during an airshow held here as mere a goodwill gesture or show off.

Where do you plan on using free fall bombs or guided bombs from a lumbering aircraft when, your two primary opponents have pretty decent AD? Or are you thinking of bombing Afghanistan?

 

[Hydra]

Where do you plan on using free fall bombs or guided bombs from a lumbering aircraft when, your two primary opponents have pretty decent AD? Or are you thinking of bombing Afghanistan?

If i am not wrong Baghdad was the most defended area in world outside Moscow, in 1991.

 

[Tatvamasi]

Currently Russians have only one type of Bomber in service, its SU34. It is short legged & not survivable too. Yeas technically we can call TU160 a bomber, but it more of a missile carrier, or atleast it performed that role only.

Tu-160 is literally the bomber!. Su-34 is strike fighter or fighter bomber like our Jaguar. Where do you come up with such hot takes?

 

[suryakiran]

If i am not wrong Baghdad was the most defended area in world outside Moscow, in 1991.

And Iraq was not a nuclear armed power. US fighting Iraq is like India fighting Maldives. Then we can do with Lancasters. No need for anything else.

And yea, as usual you are wrong. The initial strikes were by F-117. Followed by the rest of the teens and then finally everything was sanitised the B-52. You simply cannot use these in dense ADC ares

 

[Hydra]

And Iraq was not a nuclear armed power. US fighting Iraq is like India fighting Maldives. Then we can do with Lancasters. No need for anything else.

And yea, as usual you are wrong. The initial strikes were by F-117. Followed by the rest of the teens and then finally everything was sanitised the B-52. You simply cannot use these in dense ADC ares

Nuke factor has nothing to do with surface to air/air to air capabilities . What you think about H6 then? On par with B1?

And if you are doing initial strike with TU160 on Chinese, you expect to get away without getting any harm? Get alife man. If you are inducting TU160 ( which i am not thinking it gonna happen anyway, ref our IAF chief statement on bomber), you have the all risk of inducting B1 or vice versa. But on other hand, if you are inducting B1, then you can do whatever a TU160 with B1, ie as a missile truck and also can do extra things like carpet bombing.

Tu-160 is literally the bomber!. Su-34 is strike fighter or fighter bomber like our Jaguar. Where do you come up with such hot takes?

Read the post again.

 

[Tatvamasi]

Read the post again.

Tu-160 is the bomber you bozo.

 

[suryakiran]

Nuke factor has nothing to do with surface to air/air to air capabilities . What you think about H6 then? On par with B1?

And if you are doing initial strike with TU160 on Chinese, you expect to get away without getting any harm? Get alife man. If you are inducting TU160 ( which i am not thinking it gonna happen anyway, ref our IAF chief statement on bomber), you have the all risk of inducting B1 or vice versa. But on other hand, if you are inducting B1, then you can do whatever a TU160 with B1, ie as a missile truck and also can do extra things like carpet bombing.

Ok let me try dumbing this down for you.

In what scenario do you see dumb or guided bombs dropped either on Pakistan or China?

Tu-160 is literally the bomber!. Su-34 is strike fighter or fighter bomber like our Jaguar. Where do you come up with such hot takes?

Shhh.......dont spoil the fun of our in house Shuklaji.

 

[Hydra]

Tu-160 is the bomber you bozo.

Read the post

Ok let me try dumbing this down for you.

In what scenario do you see dumb or guided bombs dropped either on Pakistan or China?

Shhh.......dont spoil the fun of our in house Shuklaji.

Ok in what scenario firing few missiles will bring victory to you? Number counts, not the fancy missiles. You should know why even NATO using bomblets mains as an offensive weapon over missile barrages, you dimwit.

 

[randomradio]

According to some sources, integration and flight trials are already complete. No news as of yet about firing. Lets hope we've this missile in substantial numbers when the push comes to shove in the Himalayas.

Not only Derby-ER and Astra 2, even ASRAAM is going to be vital. Efficacy of radar guided missiles against VLO fighters is yet to be seen. Yes our future dual pulse missiles have AESA seeker but imaging infrared missiles like ASRAAM and Mica-IR are going to be absolutely vital to swat J-20s.

Rafale with Mica-IR will be a real killer. Chinese won't know what hit them, lol. MKI needs ASRAAM(hopefully the latest block which England has got) and Mica-IR. The new digita-RWR would allow MKI passive targeting. ASRAAM would do a great job in near BVR range(almost 50 kms).

Absolutely. Still remember RKS Bhadauria sir said exactly this when he was in France. We definitely should trust our armed forces than just cribbing about everything.

As per Russian sources PAK DA is going to be unveiled this year. But TU-160M2 which Russians are getting now has its own advantages being a Mach 2 capable bomber.

IMO, we should have got 114 Rafales by now, shouldn't have dropped out of FGFA and should have joined PAK DA program. Missing all these was serious oversight by our war planners.

True. Multiple exercises conducted by IAF have already validated MKI-'s war time availability. In fact, sources within IAF have termed it as 'our two front war ace', after MKI's performance in these exercises. IAF knows what they are talking about along with those who follow them.

ASRAAM and MICA IR have already been integrated on the MKI. And yeah, Derby ER and Astra Mk2 are nearing completion. I just hope we don't end up in a situation where we will place orders for Derby ER after it's finished tests, delaying the program by a year or two.

The first and foremost rule for a defence enthusiast, myself included, is to have faith in the decision the forces make, and not second guess them. Importing weapons is not a fun experience for those involved, sometimes it can even be a humiliating experience. The forces are not fans of imports, but they end up doing so out of compulsion.

The bomber thing, it should come into play only after we have signed the MRFA and LCA Mk2 deals. So, assuming it's done within this 5-year cycle, it should come into play 2028 onwards. The same for Su-57 vs F-35 etc. Normally, the Russians wouldn't export the PAK DA, but the post-sanctions world limits their options.

We dropped out of FGFA 'cause DRDO has the ability to develop the same tech, or so they say. AMCA wasn't supposed to be as advanced as it has become now, so the change in AMCA has made FGFA unnecessary. Now the only real options left are stopgap or license production. Whatever the case, whether we go for it or not, it will only happen after MRFA is done.

 

[randomradio]

Currently Russians have only one type of Bomber in service, its SU34. It is short legged & not survivable too. Yeas technically we can call TU160 a bomber, but it more of a missile carrier, or atleast it performed that role only. What we need a bomber, which can deliver bomblets & missiles, just we seeing with US bombers. Winning a war with missiles alone is impossible, even US will not achieve the objectives with missiles alone. Even the smartest bomb units cost less than the most missiles out there.

So if at all we really want abomber with IAF, instead about with TU or fancy PAK DA (which eventually will be dream only Russian project), we should pursue for second hand B1 or if US willing to sell, B21s. I dont think that US just brought B1 to india during an airshow held here as mere a goodwill gesture or show off.

Where do you plan on using free fall bombs or guided bombs from a lumbering aircraft when, your two primary opponents have pretty decent AD? Or are you thinking of bombing Afghanistan?

Tu-160 hasn't been made for standard bombing runs, it only delivers CMs. B-1 and Tu-22 can do what you guys are thinking of, but we have no need for it, as already mentioned in Suryakiran's post. We have no need for it as a traditional bomber, apart from the fact that it's not made for it.

The Tu-160 can be used to overwhelm air defences with multiple CMs. The frontal RCS of the Tu-160 is 0.1m2, no different from the Rafale. And it can carry a lot of short-medium range CMs in large numbers, unlike its more dedicated complement of 3000+Km CMs. That's saturation extreme. If you use fighters for that, then you need a large number of them, and there's nothing stealthy about numbers. Missiles launched at low altitude and the missiles themselves following a terrain-hugging profile can do its job without alerting the enemy.

It can carry 24 Kh-15, which is basically a Cold War era CM in the same class as a SCALP or JASSM. Now imagine each bomber carrying 24 stealth CMs instead. Each bomber sortie is basically equivalent to a land-based missile regiment.

It can even be used to attack Chinese port cities by hiding behind civilian aircraft in the SCS.

The only issue is something that Ignorants has been trying to bring to our notice in his posts here, and it's something I simply call superpower inventories. We need an extremely large inventory of missiles, like how the superpowers do things. Here's an example:

USAF aims to double long-term JASSM production up to 10,000 units

The US Department of Defense (DoD) is increasing potential long-term production quantities of Lockheed Martin Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM) from a possible maximum of 4,900 to a possible maximum of 10,000.

www.flightglobal.com

The US Department of Defense (DoD) is increasing potential long-term production quantities of Lockheed Martin Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM) from a possible maximum of 4,900 to a possible maximum of 10,000.

This is not something we can do today, but maybe 5 years later, it should be possible. And this is when bombers will become important, since it's obvious fighters and land-based TELs won't be up for the task.

2018-22 was our emergency purchases cycle. 2023-2027 will be our MRFA, LCA Mk2 cycle, including AWACS and refuellers. So 2028-2032, should see us getting contracts for next gen tech. So that's AMCA, Tu-160/PAK DA (hell, let's count in the B-21 as well), Su-57/F-35 etc. Basically 2028 onwards should give us the ability to compete at the superpower level.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Pleass note the revised date for transformational stuff in the Indian defense set up along with the word salad it contains towards the end & the date in question. @Sathya

You want the NGAD. No problem. Just add it on. Anything else you want? Just add it, don't be shy After all it's 2028. Hope this cheers you up. At least till 2028.

Do remember - 2028 is the new 2022 . When we will be on par with the super powers.Just when we were missing Avi Raina too.

Damn ! Never realised 8 pm is so potent . To me it always seemed like water with a cardboard soaked in it.