I also believe that instead of going for new tender we need to build 6 more scorpene with existing faciltiies. But I believe they want bigger conventional subs.
Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Himanshu
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I also believe that instead of going for new tender we need to build 6 more scorpene with existing faciltiies. But I believe they want bigger conventional subs.
Why would it take MDL 7-10 years for the follow on subs? All the infrastructure needed for it is already in place. Ask me, we did the air conditioning for the new workshops constructed to build those subs in. Goddamned project which was supposed to be commissioned in 2 years took nearly 4.5 years. One of the reasons why the Scorpenes were delayed by nearly 7-8 years.
That's how long it takes to build a sub, not counting the infrastructure already present. And my date is actually optimistic.
It takes us 7 years from the time we lay down the sub to the time it's commissioned. It takes 3 years from the time construction starts to when the sub is laid down. So that's 10 years for just 1 sub.
So logically 12 years from when we sign the contract for the next 3 subs. If we sign up next year, you can expect all 3 subs to be commissioned only in 2032.
Well,even if you're even half right, IN is in for a good time in the 2030's.As things stand we'd be with 6 Scorpenes, 2-3 SSN ( Akula Class) , 4 Arihants and possibly 3-4 indigenous SSN's. That's a grand total of 15-17 subs. Weighed against possibly 10-12 PN subs and God Knows how many Chinese subs? So much for the IN's 2000-30 Sub plans ( pun unintended).
Which shows just how good the Americans are at submarine construction given an 8000 ton Virginia class submarine takes them just over 1 1/2 years from start to finish. By comparison the Royal Navy's Astute class is taking on average 10 years and the Russian Navy's Yasen class 6-7 years. Even smaller classes like the Type 214 take 4-5 years.
It's insanely impressive, but shows that modular design isn't just great for future proofing a system, but drastically cuts both cost and construction time by distributing the work load over several shipyards. It also makes QE easier given each section can be back-traced to a specific work station if problems arise.
A few welds and it's good to go.
Sure. Give me an hour to cut my grass and I'll give you a nice write-up. Anything specific?
I wouldn't be too worried about PLAN in the mid 2030s, they will find it difficult to operate in the IOR even during wartime. They need to start matching the USN if they are to operate in the IOR with impunity, so they will need nuclear-powered carriers and SSNs in large numbers, which will happen only in the 2040s.
The Soviet Union was the same.
It largely has to do with mega-sized orders. You build 30+ subs, your construction speed is going to be really fast.
And then, you also can work 3 shifts a day. In India, it's just 1 shift a day. With 3 shifts, even the Scorpene can be made within 3 years. And with an order size exceeding 15, it can be reduced to considerably less than 2 years. Look at the speed at which the Chinese built the Type 054As.
There's not much one can do with just 5-10 orders spanning decades and a company to run.
The best way to make a proper comparison is if you can get numbers for the number of manhours needed for each sub. Impossible to get, but that's the only realistic way to do it. Just guessing, but I think the French will beat the Americans at this.
The unit at MDL manufacturing the Scorpenes run 2 shifts. Now don't ask me how do I know this and don't ask me why're they taking so long inspite of working 2 shifts.
I'm not going to touch on surface ships with this write-up considering this is a submarine thread. Just wakes as they pertain to subs.
Wake Homing - What is wake homing?
Wake homing is a pretty simple concept. A moving ship, whether at sea or moored in port, makes a wake that can be used to detect, track or engage a submarine. Pretty simple right?
Turns out wakes are a bit more complicated.
Wake Homing - Wake formation and properties.
Wakes aren't simply bubbles and noise, as they are often thought of. Effects influencing the formation, duration and detection of wakes vary greatly and include several types of thermal and non-thermal energy, in additional to topographical and macro-influences like water salinity, depth, terrain, vector and the influence of gravity. Let's look more deeply at the more obscure factors that play a very large part in non-acoustic detection systems used by wake homers.
The first type of wake property is essentially thermal energy. Essentially thermal energy is the actual heat change produced due to the influence of the submarine that the wake is acted upon by. This includes the heat transfer from the submarine to the surrounding water, the generation of heat as turbulence from the submarine's motion degrades, and water from neighboring thermal grades being pulled into the wake by turbulence and vortex formation from a submarine's prop. Finally the inability of the ocean's surface to cool via evaporation due to inhibition from surface films (hydrocarbons, sea life, ocean traffic, humidity) influences a wake's thermal energy by trapping additional heat within the wake from the surrounding ocean thermal grade. Conversely if a surface film is typically present in an ocean area and a submarine disturbs it this may actually cool the wake and produce a noticeably colder patch in the ocean behind the submarine.
non-essentially thermal energy is any change in the water's properties that are detectable, that need not be directly related to a submarine's activity, and can even produce no noticeable temperature changes. Physical changes would be the breaking of the water by rising bubbles, surface turbulence and chemical changes such as a submarine's snorkel leaking oil lubricants that form a film or anti-corrosive runoff - zinc being a common material used on submarines. Oils can dampen capillary waves, producing a smoother ocean surface as well. All of this has the effect of contributing to a wake's heat by altering the surrounding water's properties.
Akula class submarine with its SOKS system deployed. SOKS - System Obnarujenia Kilvaternovo Sleda - detects radioactive decay runoff from a hostile submarine's reactor that is diluted with the submarine's wake. SOKS could also measure zinc runoff.
The last influence sytem is non-thermal energy which would include optical changes including changes in water's reflectivity, index of refraction and absorptivity, governing its rate and suseptability to changes in its thermal grade by light. mechanical changes like cavitation or turbulence propagated by passing ships or heavy winds or sea life effect surface tension and electrical changes such as differences in conductivity, temperature gradient potential, electrolyte concentration, unequal ion diffusion rate and frictional electricity, contribute as well. As do magentic changes that are largely related to water being an electrical conductor. Chemical changes to non-thermal energy could be influenced by a submarine as "wake seeding" is actually a thing that can detect the chemical makeup of a wake by injecting the water around with various chemicals. An example could be using ca0 to detect Co2, which when introduced produces a white chalk known as CaCo3 - calcium carbonate.
Rounding out the influences of non-thermal energy are biological influences such as barnacle waste, the attraction of or presence of sea life within the wake and waste from the submarine's crew and nuclear runoff in the form of phosphoresence (heat and light produced without combustion, as is common with radioactive decay), the Cherenkov Effect, producing a noticeable glow from the presence of a charged particle moving faster then the speed of light in a given medium, and radionuclide runoff, which is what the Russian SOKS system detects, along with chemical runoff.
Still with me? Good
.Wake formation isn't less complicated. But in simple terms a wake is formed when a body moves over a medium that itself moves over a medium with a different density. The above factors influence the properties of the wake and influence non-acoustic detection of an underwater body.
Wake Homing - Wake detection and tracking.
So now that we know the properties of a wake, what can we do with that info? Turns out there are a lot of really cool ways to detect and track wakes. Synthetic aperture radars on satellites and aircraft are some of the most capable wake hunters around today.
Of course radar doesn't work well underwater, but how about detecting thermal changes? Much better. On MPAs like the P-3 and P-8A, but not P-8I, thermal radiometers are used to track down changes in thermal grade, chemical runoff and radionuclides. One early example found on the P2V-5 was a Barnes radiometer, which was used in japan to track both thermal energy and radionuclides near Mount Fuji and in both surface and ground water during the post-war cleanup of Japan. These track radioactive decay and the thermal energy produced from the process.
During ASW trials the system could rapidly detect hydrocarbons from conventional submarines and radiological contaminants, along with thermal energy at different thermal grades across varying ocean depths and conditions. Since then detection systems long the lines of the Barnes radiometer have only gotten better.
For detecting heat, MAD is used to detect the hull, not wake. Welds and rivets, when heated, produce a magnetic field that's noticeable. Infrared detection of submarines is largely considered non-viable due to heat's rapid dissipation in water.
Systems for detecting biological runoff or influences, such as tracking maritime wildlife in relation to a submarine's vector, have been explored, but ultimately deemed insufficient. LIDAR, green laser specifically, has been promising for tracking thermal changes and ultimately has been introduced as an operational capability for mine-hunting.
LIDAR imaging has been used to map the sea-floor, including during salvage operations, such as in finding USS S-28, which sunk of Hawaii.
China is believed to be developing high-powered LIDAR system for satellite surveillance of underseas objects.
Mentioned previously, SOKS-type systems, like this on a Royal Navy Trafalgar class submarine, track wake properties such as the presence of radionuclides and zinc-runoff from anti-corrosive measures. they could just as easily be tuned against hydrocarbons off-boarded by AIP designs that use fuel cells or batteries, and even oxygen scrubbers.
Wake homing torpedoes are far simpler and use active acoustic homing to track cavitation and turbulence. Acoustic homing is itself an interesting concept. Passive acoustic homing simply listens to background noise and orients itself to match where the single is loudest. Active acoustic homing, or sonar, emits an acoustic pulse when reflects of an object as an echo.
Wake Homing - Countermeasures?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is one area I simply can't speak on without having to censor my writing. Sorry. Yes there are countermreasures to wake formation and properties, but as someone who made systems to track and engage submarines for a living I'm not really at liberty to say what they are.
What I can say publicly is that some hull designs and propulsion systems do cut down on surface and near-surface wake formation and cavitation. There's a reason that navies are investing in counter-torpedo torpedoes though.
So I suppose the Kilo and HDW MLUs are with 1 shift then. It doesn't matter, it just means less workers are working 2 shifts. As for delays, a lot of it can be deliberate also. Keeps people employed.
The only ones who work at peak efficiency are the Chinese and Americans, considering the size of their orders.
Very informative Thank you.I'm not going to touch on surface ships with this write-up considering this is a submarine thread. Just wakes as they pertain to subs.
Wake Homing - What is wake homing?
Wake homing is a pretty simple concept. A moving ship, whether at sea or moored in port, makes a wake that can be used to detect, track or engage a submarine. Pretty simple right?
Turns out wakes are a bit more complicated.
Wake Homing - Wake formation and properties.
Wakes aren't simply bubbles and noise, as they are often thought of. Effects influencing the formation, duration and detection of wakes vary greatly and include several types of thermal and non-thermal energy, in additional to topographical and macro-influences like water salinity, depth, terrain, vector and the influence of gravity. Let's look more deeply at the more obscure factors that play a very large part in non-acoustic detection systems used by wake homers.
The first type of wake property is essentially thermal energy. Essentially thermal energy is the actual heat change produced due to the influence of the submarine that the wake is acted upon by. This includes the heat transfer from the submarine to the surrounding water, the generation of heat as turbulence from the submarine's motion degrades, and water from neighboring thermal grades being pulled into the wake by turbulence and vortex formation from a submarine's prop. Finally the inability of the ocean's surface to cool via evaporation due to inhibition from surface films (hydrocarbons, sea life, ocean traffic, humidity) influences a wake's thermal energy by trapping additional heat within the wake from the surrounding ocean thermal grade. Conversely if a surface film is typically present in an ocean area and a submarine disturbs it this may actually cool the wake and produce a noticeably colder patch in the ocean behind the submarine.
non-essentially thermal energy is any change in the water's properties that are detectable, that need not be directly related to a submarine's activity, and can even produce no noticeable temperature changes. Physical changes would be the breaking of the water by rising bubbles, surface turbulence and chemical changes such as a submarine's snorkel leaking oil lubricants that form a film or anti-corrosive runoff - zinc being a common material used on submarines. Oils can dampen capillary waves, producing a smoother ocean surface as well. All of this has the effect of contributing to a wake's heat by altering the surrounding water's properties.
Akula class submarine with its SOKS system deployed. SOKS - System Obnarujenia Kilvaternovo Sleda - detects radioactive decay runoff from a hostile submarine's reactor that is diluted with the submarine's wake. SOKS could also measure zinc runoff.
The last influence sytem is non-thermal energy which would include optical changes including changes in water's reflectivity, index of refraction and absorptivity, governing its rate and suseptability to changes in its thermal grade by light. mechanical changes like cavitation or turbulence propagated by passing ships or heavy winds or sea life effect surface tension and electrical changes such as differences in conductivity, temperature gradient potential, electrolyte concentration, unequal ion diffusion rate and frictional electricity, contribute as well. As do magentic changes that are largely related to water being an electrical conductor. Chemical changes to non-thermal energy could be influenced by a submarine as "wake seeding" is actually a thing that can detect the chemical makeup of a wake by injecting the water around with various chemicals. An example could be using ca0 to detect Co2, which when introduced produces a white chalk known as CaCo3 - calcium carbonate.
Rounding out the influences of non-thermal energy are biological influences such as barnacle waste, the attraction of or presence of sea life within the wake and waste from the submarine's crew and nuclear runoff in the form of phosphoresence (heat and light produced without combustion, as is common with radioactive decay), the Cherenkov Effect, producing a noticeable glow from the presence of a charged particle moving faster then the speed of light in a given medium, and radionuclide runoff, which is what the Russian SOKS system detects, along with chemical runoff.
Still with me? Good
Wake formation isn't less complicated. But in simple terms a wake is formed when a body moves over a medium that itself moves over a medium with a different density. The above factors influence the properties of the wake and influence non-acoustic detection of an underwater body.
Wake Homing - Wake detection and tracking.
So now that we know the properties of a wake, what can we do with that info? Turns out there are a lot of really cool ways to detect and track wakes. Synthetic aperture radars on satellites and aircraft are some of the most capable wake hunters around today.
View attachment 8256
Of course radar doesn't work well underwater, but how about detecting thermal changes? Much better. On MPAs like the P-3 and P-8A, but not P-8I, thermal radiometers are used to track down changes in thermal grade, chemical runoff and radionuclides. One early example found on the P2V-5 was a Barnes radiometer, which was used in japan to track both thermal energy and radionuclides near Mount Fuji and in both surface and ground water during the post-war cleanup of Japan. These track radioactive decay and the thermal energy produced from the process.
During ASW trials the system could rapidly detect hydrocarbons from conventional submarines and radiological contaminants, along with thermal energy at different thermal grades across varying ocean depths and conditions. Since then detection systems long the lines of the Barnes radiometer have only gotten better.
For detecting heat, MAD is used to detect the hull, not wake. Welds and rivets, when heated, produce a magnetic field that's noticeable. Infrared detection of submarines is largely considered non-viable due to heat's rapid dissipation in water.
Systems for detecting biological runoff or influences, such as tracking maritime wildlife in relation to a submarine's vector, have been explored, but ultimately deemed insufficient. LIDAR, green laser specifically, has been promising for tracking thermal changes and ultimately has been introduced as an operational capability for mine-hunting.
LIDAR imaging has been used to map the sea-floor, including during salvage operations, such as in finding USS S-28, which sunk of Hawaii.
China is believed to be developing high-powered LIDAR system for satellite surveillance of underseas objects.
Mentioned previously, SOKS-type systems, like this on a Royal Navy Trafalgar class submarine, track wake properties such as the presence of radionuclides and zinc-runoff from anti-corrosive measures. they could just as easily be tuned against hydrocarbons off-boarded by AIP designs that use fuel cells or batteries, and even oxygen scrubbers.
Wake homing torpedoes are far simpler and use active acoustic homing to track cavitation and turbulence. Acoustic homing is itself an interesting concept. Passive acoustic homing simply listens to background noise and orients itself to match where the single is loudest. Active acoustic homing, or sonar, emits an acoustic pulse when reflects of an object as an echo.
Wake Homing - Countermeasures?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is one area I simply can't speak on without having to censor my writing. Sorry. Yes there are countermreasures to wake formation and properties, but as someone who made systems to track and engage submarines for a living I'm not really at liberty to say what they are.
What I can say publicly is that some hull designs and propulsion systems do cut down on surface and near-surface wake formation and cavitation. There's a reason that navies are investing in counter-torpedo torpedoes though.
Pretty sure it doesn't belong here. Not sure where it belongs.. so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
After Conventional & Nuclear, India Seeks Russian 20-Seater Submarines For Tourists
After Conventional & Nuclear, India Seeks Russian 20-Seater Submarines For Tourists
Been thinking about it...
Taiwan need submarine, showed interest in scorpenes..
We are having capacity and time gap to build scorpenes..
Say we build follow on 3 subs..
We can swap it for 60 mirage 2005 of theirs..
Please ignore the last post.
At present we're operating conventional subs originating from three different countries which is absurd to say the least. Moving forward (esp. for P 75I) we should stick with Scorpenes with some modifications. Further, we should immediately place an order for 3 follow on subs of Kalvari class as P 75I is getting delayed. Since french are not much accomodating in TOT deals as we've experienced in P 75 ( recently there was a news report about this as well quoting a navy official) so for P 75I we have to somehow make them accede to our demands regarding greater TOT. If possible MDL and L&T should be made to work together on all future sub projects including P 75I as both of them as experienced ( I know L&T is a competitor in P75I partnering Russia). Lastly we have to make sure that scorpene leak type incidents dont happen in future.
At present we're operating conventional subs originating from three different countries which is absurd to say the least. Moving forward (esp. for P 75I) we should stick with Scorpenes with some modifications. Further, we should immediately place an order for 3 follow on subs of Kalvari class as P 75I is getting delayed. Since french are not much accomodating in TOT deals as we've experienced in P 75 ( recently there was a news report about this as well quoting a navy official) so for P 75I we have to somehow make them accede to our demands regarding greater TOT. If possible MDL and L&T should be made to work together on all future sub projects including P 75I as both of them as experienced ( I know L&T is a competitor in P75I partnering Russia). Lastly we have to make sure that scorpene leak type incidents dont happen in future.
please see my post #257 as the one you replied to was incomplete and as far as your Taiwan wala idea is concerned.......sounds good on paper but in reality it would result in a direct face off with China which India usually avoids at all costs as our country is still a "fattu" ( sry for using this word but thats a reality) when it comes to dealing with China as is clear with recent Demchok incident (Shangsam valley, Aksai Chin, main CPEC road going through POK & many more examples are there) as the female local sarpanch in a youtube video is clearly calling our forces and govt chelas- chamchas of China bcz of our lax attitude towards salami slicing techniques of China on Indo-China border ( I hope she's wrong but m afraid she sounded quite concerned with situation on ground). I'll post the link of that video as well.
A26....
It's worst than F35 : a nice powerpoint BUT the industrial power behind is weak, so is the skill of the team.
If Indian Navy really is short on subs, there will be another Scorpene bid, because in case of the choice of another dock and/or sub model, there will be a 8 to 10 years delay (and probably more) between inking the contract and a first sub in the sea !
The evaluation will take care of that. If they qualify, then they meet Indian requirements.
Plus, the A26 is under construction, so by the time the evaluations begin, we will have a launched submarine to look at already.