Hope we go for the KSS 3 and the 3+3 kilos from the Russians. Our submarine problems will be dealt with. Just need to produce more scorpenes and p75I's then to handle the sino-pakistani naval build up
Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Himanshu
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Sterling engines are from Sweden. The Sonar suite consisting of flank arrays, towed arrays and cylindrical ones. They are American. Weapon systems and Combat management systems are co-developed using American technologies. The Electronic support measures, decoys, etc , they too have American input.
The Kilos retired in Russian Navy, if were in any condition to be serviced, don't you think Myanmar would have preferred those ?
The hulls active in Pacific and Northern Fleet will get retired once they receive the new subs.
And the newest 877 which Russia can provide us from their fleet is as of 2022 already 30 years old.
China scrapped their 877 when they were 26 years old. 25 years was the design life with 1 MLU.
Modi s first foreign trip was Japan.
We wanted to buy Japanese.. U2 planes.
8+ years - nowhere in sight.
Good luck negotiating for sub tech.
We just not being greedy & unrealistic will solve all the problems, with this in mind start negotiating with on g2g level. I believe Japanese will sell their sub with limited tech transfer or we can pursue the French Nuke sub offer, we are atleast 2-3 decades far away from making anything close to Baracuda SSNs.
I do remember when late Israeli pm,Ariel Sharon made a visit to India he proposed joint co development & construction of new class sub for both navies. As usual it never materialised and now we are begging for technology from others. French offer is lucrative,just grab the opportunity and don't miss the bus as happened with isrealis.
And a big NO for Russian subs.
Let's forget the Japanese selling us anything. They are all talk. The Korean KSS 3 is the most heavily armed subs and has all the technical requirements to fulfill indian needs. They also have their own version of anti ship ballistic and cruise missile that can be launched from the sub.
We can afford doing the French nuke sub offer along with the Korean sub. But if the Russians are not scamming us again we should go for the kilo deal
Upgrading a single Kilo Class (which is in service) costs upwards of 180 million dollars. Upgrading a decommissioned vessel will cost much more.
Take it 200 million dollars for 10 years.
Compare it to 600-700 million dollars for a new submarine.
Not worth it in my opinion.
We don't really have that luxury. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. The kilos could atleast give us breathing space for a decade.
Considering that AoN to RFP to CCS is fast tracked within 6 months, even then it will take 36 months easily to reactivate and refit the submarine. No easy solution here.
Best way forward imo is to pump everything in SSN project and start with P76 along with a foreign consulting company.
Maybe convert a Type 209 and Kilo into test vessels.
Put money into development of flank arrays , cylindrical arrays and towed arrays. Money into own Combat management system.
These are minimum.
Rest things like generators , masts etc can be imported for the meanwhile.
Put money into development of flank arrays , cylindrical arrays and towed arrays. Money into own Combat management system.
These are minimum.
Rest things like generators , masts etc can be imported for the meanwhile.
See the age of 12 older submarines in the inventory and see the expanding surface fleet of Pakistan and Bangladesh. We will be tied down in our immediate neighborhood forever like this.
But once the Scorpene was fully launched, you could have launched the P75 I programme so that it would take over from the Scorpene. My question is why does it keep going wrong? There must be a basic reason, even if the administrative procedures are complicated, with 1.3 billion inhabitants you must have enough manpower to do the work.
Well from the people I meet on twitter and DFI it's amply clear that our common Indian people are just all show no go. They want to lecture the armed forces and govt on how to procure or do R&D this or that way but they have no qualification themselves to speak on the topic they speak on. Goddamn lawyers, authors and "interested in defense and R&D" peeps on twitter ranting baselessly how the armed forces are corrupt and crap and how the govt is no balls but when you confront them with facts, ask their source or the technical know-how of why they say what they say, it's like a snake bit them
And I myself don't know what internal procedures are followed in huge projects like this but I would like to point out one of the reason we are in a hurry cuz the congress govt didn't pay any heed to our forces needs. Everything related to defense was just another way to get those $$ in their pockets while keeping the armed forces to "fend for themselves" in a way. For eg; back during the peaks of terrorism in Kashmir our men were without BPJ and ballistic helmets in proper amount, Tejas wasn't even been looked at during congress era much less even talked about. Only in 2016 our late defense minister started induction planning of it. This was our situation as one of the great military powers in the world back then so obviously now you see us in arms race along with our enemies. Although I would also like to point out that the present govt is not like doing the best work in the defense sector there are obviously some points at which things could go wrong but it's doing a far better work than the previous govts
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P75I first RFI came out in 2008. Even then the basic requirements over something like Scorpene was AIP and land attack capability (no VLS was mentioned then). But then 26/11 happened. And all the focus was shifted to threat of terrorist activities via sea. OPVs, coastal survillance, etc were ordered.
It took another 2 years to get the focus back. But then issues arise that how many should be imported, how many shipyards should locally build them, what should be the ToT levels, etc. This turned out to be too costly.
So matters were in limbo untill new government came in 2014. It was then decided that all 6 were to be built in India. But then 2 issues arise again
1. Should more than 1 shipyard together execute this or not.
2. The government wanted to include private sector too.
To sort all this , to the stage of RFI, a lot of time was wasted. The government wanted employment and pvt sector capability expansion from P75 then, fleet renewal was secondary.
I think the new RFI came in 2018 then. It was then that Government tried to get Japan and Sweden onboard. But after those 2 refused it was released to remaining players.
But then a new (now total failed ) approach was created. Strategic partnerships. It was decided that MMRCA , NUH and P75I will be completed using this. For this created another set of delays because in this case the Shipyards had to send out EOIs to the foreign partners.
To select the 2 shipyards who could participate in the competition and release the RFP finally took another 12 months. Then came Covid and everything stuck again. By the time Covid started decreasing news came that Germany pulls out, then Russia and now France.
If the P75I was to be built in the same way P75 was right from 2014, we would have had the 6 P75I vessels in water now.
And what would be better for India: the current situation or having these 6 submarines even if they were not fully compliant with the last wishes or if they had not been built with the most adequate production structure?
For me, it would be better to have these 6 submarines and maybe launch new ones in an improved framework. It's also a bit the same with all your programmes, you change the specifications along the way, whereas with us, for example, we tend not to change the specifications but to do what was planned within the deadline, whatever the cost, and then make a new version that takes into account the improvements that were thought of during the production of the first version.
The Strategic Partnership model (all 3 were actually where French companies were leaders) are failing. The Naval Utility Helicopter program will now see domestic Procurement of Dhruv outside SP. The MMRCA will likely be G2G now.
And now the P75I failing.
Should have followed the production model of P75, maybe with more localisation.
My only wish is Mig35 & SU35 should not be inducted in G2G route.