Years ago, I told Ignorants that P76 will begin as soon as P-75I has made progress.
Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Himanshu
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Years ago, I told Ignorants that P76 will begin as soon as P-75I has made progress.
The Germans are in the competition to soften the bill for L&T, like the German Typhoon did for Rafale.
With the Spanish offer, we should be able to choose many systems of our own instead of getting lumped with proprietary sh!t from Germany. So there will be much greater focus on indigenization, and a more willing OEM.
The S-80 provides quite a bit of commonality with Scorpene too.
And don't forget sanctions. There are very few countries that like sanctions more than Germany.
To my mind, it looked like the IN was eyeing the Type 212 (stealth, advance AIP) and only keeping Navantia in the running to avoid a single vendor situation but you have a point there.
I don't believe the Germans are offering the Type 212 though. A larger export version is much more likely.
Years ago I made a prediction.... goes RST. I wonder where's the prediction here ? Project 75 I has been ongoing along with Project 75 except the latter got the go ahead earlier since the proposal was put up earlier which is how it is with armed forces the world over who decide priority & assign project titles & serial numbers sequentially .
Hence in the INs list of priorities it always was - Project 75 -> Project 75 I -> Project 76 , irrespective of how RST spins it . Back to predictions & God knows we've awaited fruition of all those predictions before & in all of 2022 with bated breath only to see not a single one come true. Then the magic year got pushed to 2026. Wonder if it's the same or managed to get pushed forward to 2028 now .
In fact OST - Original Story Teller PKS was so embarassed by RST's performance that he went ahead & had a bypass surgery earlier this year giving up posting on his blog altogether even though he enjoys a strike rate in predictions of 7/10 whereas..... Ok never mind , It's a sore topic.
While on predictions I ventured earlier , this tender is for TKMS to lose . Navantia is there to ensure this tender doesn't end up as a nomination tender & be scrapped apart from ensuring TKMS doesn't squeeze us. If Naval Group didn't act the way they did given the excellent strategic relationship between India & France , they'd have been in pole position.
Which in turn brings us to an interesting situation. The Project 75 I is progressing in parallel to the extension of Project 75 aka the additional 3 Scorpenes which are believed to be of a bigger displacement as compared to the original 6 we've built.
How exactly does that square off with the Project 75 I is unknown given both are mutually exclusive projects ? I'd leave this for RST & his febrile imagination .
Hence in the INs list of priorities it always was - Project 75 -> Project 75 I -> Project 76 , irrespective of how RST spins it . Back to predictions & God knows we've awaited fruition of all those predictions before & in all of 2022 with bated breath only to see not a single one come true. Then the magic year got pushed to 2026. Wonder if it's the same or managed to get pushed forward to 2028 now .
In fact OST - Original Story Teller PKS was so embarassed by RST's performance that he went ahead & had a bypass surgery earlier this year giving up posting on his blog altogether even though he enjoys a strike rate in predictions of 7/10 whereas..... Ok never mind , It's a sore topic.
While on predictions I ventured earlier , this tender is for TKMS to lose . Navantia is there to ensure this tender doesn't end up as a nomination tender & be scrapped apart from ensuring TKMS doesn't squeeze us. If Naval Group didn't act the way they did given the excellent strategic relationship between India & France , they'd have been in pole position.
Which in turn brings us to an interesting situation. The Project 75 I is progressing in parallel to the extension of Project 75 aka the additional 3 Scorpenes which are believed to be of a bigger displacement as compared to the original 6 we've built.
How exactly does that square off with the Project 75 I is unknown given both are mutually exclusive projects ? I'd leave this for RST & his febrile imagination .
If we didn't take part, it's because the tender required a submarine with an AIP already in operation, and that's not the case with the Scorpène. The fact that the S-80 is bigger than the Scorpene is simply because Navantia didn't even know how to calculate the mass that would allow the submarine to float.
It is bigger because the Spanish navy requested a larger design to meet staff requirements in 2002.
S-80 Plus-class submarine - Wikipedia
That's the German one on offer I believe, Type 212CD E. It's an export version of the new gen Type 212CD ordered by Germany and Italy.
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In the same wikipedia:It is bigger because the Spanish navy requested a larger design to meet staff requirements in 2002.
S-80 Plus-class submarine - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Navantia engineers had miscalculated the weight of the submarines by some 100 t (98 long tons; 110 short tons) of the total 2000 tonne mass of the submarines, more than enough to sink the submarines if not fixed. As of 2013 Navantia announced the issue would delay the delivery of the first submarine to the Spanish Navy until at least 2017. That date proved to be optimistic. Lengthening the submarine created additional buoyancy. Navantia signed on the US company General Dynamics Electric Boat to help solve the excess weight design issue. In September 2014, the overweight issue was reported to have been resolved in design changes and the construction work to be ready to resume in late October 2014. In November 2014, Navantia again reported having completed the redesign work to address the problem of overweight. In all, the hull would be lengthened by 10 metres (33 ft), and the displacement increased by 100 tons.
It's true that they've changed the diameter a little, but between adding a section for the AIP (as we're going to do on the Scorpene) and 10 metres for calculation errors, that's a change in length which also contributes to the increase in size.
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There is a difference of 1100 tons between the Kalvari class and the S-80. So, even if you subtract that increase of 100 tons, there is still a significant difference. The difference in length is also substantial at 13 meters. So, your initial statement is wrong. Difference in size is because of differing requirements not some mistake. The naval group did not participate in this tender for the same reason. It was not because of the proven AIP, but it did not deter the Spaniards.
13 meters is not subtantial if you compare it to the 10 meters due to their mistake! And if you want to compensate for 100 tonnes of excess weight by lengthening, you'll need to create an additional buoyancy for the 100 t and for the mass of the new section: it's much more than 100 t.
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Okay, I misread the wiki. The actual weight was 71 meters and 2200 tons. Now, after fixes, it is 81 meters and 2900 tons. It is bigger by design, but not this big. Anyway, it fits our requirement. Thats what matter today.
The benefits of their mistakes will be of advantage to India when our sub's designed.
P76 could have started anytime long after P75I. I was specific about P76 starting immediately. For example, AMCA did not receive the same treatment post the successful development of LCA Mk1, regardless of how much ADA pushed for it. Neither did GNMBT.
Indeed . Project 75 I is of the same vintage as Project 75 where both were to be initiated simultaneously. Because of budgetary constraints , only Project 75 was initiated with Project 75 I being repatedly postponed.
Are we to understand if Project 75 I was implemented simultaneously as Project 75 , Project 76 would follow immediately ? And if Project 75 I was delayed by 20 years , would Project 76 also be initiated 2 decades from now ? Are we actually debating trivia instead of more important predictions none of which have come to pass incidentally.
Damn , I was under the impression a few months off from this site & 8 pm would be chucked aside . Some things never change . For everything else there's MasterCard.
en.wikipedia.org
Are we to understand if Project 75 I was implemented simultaneously as Project 75 , Project 76 would follow immediately ? And if Project 75 I was delayed by 20 years , would Project 76 also be initiated 2 decades from now ? Are we actually debating trivia instead of more important predictions none of which have come to pass incidentally.
Damn , I was under the impression a few months off from this site & 8 pm would be chucked aside . Some things never change . For everything else there's MasterCard.
Project-75 (India) submarine acquisition project - Wikipedia
Yes, but believe me, Navantia are a bunch of Charlots, and I wouldn't trust them with anything important. TKMS is our biggest competitor, but at least they're professionals.
P75 and P75I were planned in 1997. I'm obviously talking about the last many years, since 2018 or so. Unlike other verticals, the sub vertical is quite limited and comes with limited options. We gotta take what we can get. While Arjun Mk1A and T-90 Mk3 are decent temporary replacements for delays in the GNMBT and FRCV programs, the same with MRFA, LCA Mk2 and AMCA being indirect replacements for each other, the Scorpene does not provide crucial anti-China capabilities and any alternatives are not realistic within the timeframe the capabilities are expected.
In any case, P76 wasn't anywhere near the horizon in 1997. The plan was for 6+3 P75 and 6+3 P75I and 6 P76, with the last one taken up after P75I was half-way done, not immediately after P75I began.
In any case, P76 wasn't anywhere near the horizon in 1997. The plan was for 6+3 P75 and 6+3 P75I and 6 P76, with the last one taken up after P75I was half-way done, not immediately after P75I began.
Like the Chinese have done with the Yuan class, the IN too could have modified the Kilo/Lada class design with some Russian consultancy as a stopgap solution. But there was no initiative from them.
They could have considered a downsized Arihant SSK version on the lines of Shortfin Barracuda. But the quest for gold plated, proven systems is our biggest problem imo. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
India has more to worry about politicians than industry. If Germany sanctions India, TKMS will also very professionally sanction India. Spain is much easier to deal with.