Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 14 37.8%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 9 24.3%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 14 37.8%

  • Total voters
    37
Like the Chinese have done with the Yuan class, the IN too could have modified the Kilo/Lada class design with some Russian consultancy as a stopgap solution. But there was no initiative from them.
They could have considered a downsized Arihant SSK version on the lines of Shortfin Barracuda. But the quest for gold plated, proven systems is our biggest problem imo. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

We did not have the money because of HDW and Arihant programs in the 90s, and then HDW was canceled.

Scorpene was supposed to give us tech, and that succeeded, hence the optimism for P76.

Most of our industrial effort was focused on the SSBN program.

We don't have the engineering capability to shorten and use Arihant as an SSK. I don't think anybody does. The French Suffren is a much smaller sub. And the Barracuda is a direct cousin, all they did is shorten the hull by a few meters. SMX 3.0 was pretty much a new sub.
 
India has more to worry about politicians than industry. If Germany sanctions India, TKMS will also very professionally sanction India. Spain is much easier to deal with.
If India is keen to go with Navantia, then why is it made public that their AIP solution has glitches?

I too hope L&T + Navantia gets the contract.
 
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As usual RST continues in the same vein of assembling all the facts , drawing the wrong conclusions much like @BlackOpsIndia then pursuing a faulty line of argument. I recall RST raising Freedom House Index in one of his arguments with Paddy only to have Paddy analyse his post in one of those rare instances & then beat up RST black & blue . It's the same out here.

IN has always wanted to indigenize mfg SSK. It started out with HDW of which we were to mfg 6 but thanks to the corruption scandal which ensued the program ended up yielding 4 submarines of which 2 were built here & the program was effectively buried & with it all the technologies we imbibed as well as the capabilities we created.

As I remarked before highly skilled welders along with other personnel including engineers trained in what was then HDW West Germany migrated to Australia helping them build the Collins class of submarines once the program here shut down . That's the extent of what we lost out on back then .

Then came the 30 year old plan in 1999 which envisaged building ~ 24 odd submarines of which 6 (+3) were to be with a displacement of ~ 1500 Tons +/- 200-300 Tons for littoral defence duties with secondary attack role followed by 6 x ~ 3000 Tons for deep sea patrolling right upto the Persian Gulf , the Malacca Straits , the Bab el Mandeb choke points & the Northern Indian Ocean for which we were to get into a ToT with a foreign OEM.

Long story short that culminated in a deal with Naval Group ( NG) for Scorpenes whereas the Project 75 I which was an equally important part of the matrix for us to master design & development of our indigenous class of submarines was indefinitely postponed. In between all this the Arihant program gathered steam & with it our WDB gained plenty of experience along with the Scorpene program.

Post Scorpenes it was only a matter of time before we announced the launching of our own indigenous program of designing & mfg our own SSKs. However , the IN never lost sight of their long term goals & persisted with the Project 75 I & here we are .

What remains to be seen is how are the IN & MoD going to juggle all these submarine projects in terms of finances & design leave alone mfg which I think we can manage in the next 10 years for we're talking multiple projects here - from the extension of the 3 nos Scorpene under Project 75 to the Project 75 I to the Project 75 Alpha now reduced to 2 nos of the 6 in addition to the Arihant class & the S-5 class on the drawing board , the latter two though executed by the IN & WDB will be under the SFC for obvious reasons with funding under the SFC head.

If anybody thinks we're going to see any movement on Project 76 before the end of this decade I'd be very surprised.
 
India has more to worry about politicians than industry. If Germany sanctions India, TKMS will also very professionally sanction India. Spain is much easier to deal with.

It's one thing to deny licenses for small arms because they don't want them used in 'disputed areas' namely J&K, but to sanction spares and supplies for subs is a non-starter imo.
If we did a G2G deal with specific sanction proof clauses, or get a sovereign guarantee from Berlin, we should be fine. They would have to honor it. Countries like France continued to service the Pakistani Agosta despite their personnel being killed in a terrorist attacks.
Imo unilateral sanctions won't happen as long as the we hold the China card. They want a piece of our market too. But if the US starts its shenanigans, then all bets are off
 
Going by recent reports, approx 95% of our N subs are now indigenous after decades of hard work. Sonar, periscope, CMS, specialized steel, weapons (torpedo+missiles) all local. When it comes to SSK, we are testing AIP, working on LIB, 5MW motor(?). What is getting in the way of building an indigenous SSK?

As usual RST continues in the same vein of assembling all the facts , drawing the wrong conclusions much like @BlackOpsIndia then pursuing a faulty line of argument. I recall RST raising Freedom House Index in one of his arguments with Paddy only to have Paddy analyse his post in one of those rare instances & then beat up RST black & blue . It's the same out here.

IN has always wanted to indigenize mfg SSK. It started out with HDW of which we were to mfg 6 but thanks to the corruption scandal which ensued the program ended up yielding 4 submarines of which 2 were built here & the program was effectively buried & with it all the technologies we imbibed as well as the capabilities we created.

As I remarked before highly skilled welders along with other personnel including engineers trained in what was then HDW West Germany migrated to Australia helping them build the Collins class of submarines once the program here shut down . That's the extent of what we lost out on back then .

Then came the 30 year old plan in 1999 which envisaged building ~ 24 odd submarines of which 6 (+3) were to be with a displacement of ~ 1500 Tons +/- 200-300 Tons for littoral defence duties with secondary attack role followed by 6 x ~ 3000 Tons for deep sea patrolling right upto the Persian Gulf , the Malacca Straits , the Bab el Mandeb choke points & the Northern Indian Ocean for which we were to get into a ToT with a foreign OEM.

Long story short that culminated in a deal with Naval Group ( NG) for Scorpenes whereas the Project 75 I which was an equally important part of the matrix for us to master design & development of our indigenous class of submarines was indefinitely postponed. In between all this the Arihant program gathered steam & with it our WDB gained plenty of experience along with the Scorpene program.

Post Scorpenes it was only a matter of time before we announced the launching of our own indigenous program of designing & mfg our own SSKs. However , the IN never lost sight of their long term goals & persisted with the Project 75 I & here we are .

What remains to be seen is how are the IN & MoD going to juggle all these submarine projects in terms of finances & design leave alone mfg which I think we can manage in the next 10 years for we're talking multiple projects here - from the extension of the 3 nos Scorpene under Project 75 to the Project 75 I to the Project 75 Alpha now reduced to 2 nos of the 6 in addition to the Arihant class & the S-5 class on the drawing board , the latter two though executed by the IN & WDB will be under the SFC for obvious reasons with funding under the SFC head.

If anybody thinks we're going to see any movement on Project 76 before the end of this decade I'd be very surprised.
 
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Going by recent reports, approx 95% of our N subs are now indigenous after decades of hard work. Sonar, periscope, CMS, specialized steel, weapons (torpedo+missiles) all local. When it comes to SSK, we are testing AIP, working on LIB, 5MW motor(?). What is getting in the way of building an indigenous SSK?
No clue . Fear of failure I guess. The designs of all those submarines we've built have been foreign with external consultancy. Perhaps the IN is only now confident & comfortable designing our own indigenous submarine. The flip side of the story is the sorry construction saga of the S-80. I'm sure no Navy wants to go through it .
 
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They make it sound like it's the last time they're going the import route. But always circle back to it. It probably is a confidence issue more than anything else. This is when private companies like L&T have come up a concept for the SOV 400 midget sub building on their ATV work.

To me it's inexplicable that we can build an N sub but not a conventional boat.
 
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If India is keen to go with Navantia, then why is it made public that their AIP solution has glitches?

I too hope L&T + Navantia gets the contract.

No clue what they mean by that.

I had previously speculated that TKMS will get T1, but Navantia will get L1. It's unclear if Navantia will get rejected or if any deficiencies will be rectified by the time production begins.

At the very least S-80 Plus is operational. And the AIP is expected to undergo sea trials on their third sub early next year. That gives plenty of time to fix issues.

Thankfully the Spanish have warm water requirements.
 
It's one thing to deny licenses for small arms because they don't want them used in 'disputed areas' namely J&K, but to sanction spares and supplies for subs is a non-starter imo.
If we did a G2G deal with specific sanction proof clauses, or get a sovereign guarantee from Berlin, we should be fine. They would have to honor it. Countries like France continued to service the Pakistani Agosta despite their personnel being killed in a terrorist attacks.
Imo unilateral sanctions won't happen as long as the we hold the China card. They want a piece of our market too. But if the US starts its shenanigans, then all bets are off

They won't sanction spares, but more advanced capabilities that are introduced during overhauls and MLUs will be denied. You can also expect them to play hardball and delay overall modernization. They will naturally use this as leverage against us.

Sovereign guarantees are pretty much irrelevant if they have multi-partisan support. We can already see that they don't care much about their reputation when they sanctioned Russia.
 
Going by recent reports, approx 95% of our N subs are now indigenous after decades of hard work. Sonar, periscope, CMS, specialized steel, weapons (torpedo+missiles) all local. When it comes to SSK, we are testing AIP, working on LIB, 5MW motor(?). What is getting in the way of building an indigenous SSK?

We do not have a diesel engine.

It's unclear if we have a domestic program for that. The expectation may be that one of the OEMs will provide it to India, like we are doing with jet engines. Both Scorpene and S-80 Plus use German engines. The large contract for 15 subs makes it viable to import a German engine for P76, or it would go the Arjun way with the Germans supplying an older, inferior engine.

The SSBNs and SSNs come with an Indian steam turbine.

Who knows? We may even choose an ethanol engine. ;)
 
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Even the Chinese use MTU diesels on their subs. We may have to settle for an older version until we can develop our own. Hopefully pvt cos like Exide and Kirloskar can help. But if that's the last piece of the puzzle, we'd better get cracking on it. The armed forces have been surrendering a lot of money over the years.
 
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No, Its way bigger than Scorpene. Which is one of the key requirements of the tender. If scorpene was so good you should have participated.
better endurance ? this is wht Scorpene NG is Li ion fitted.
Attack missile ? Unlike spain France can offer a ITAR free missile : Scalp Naval.
Can someone confirm if we're being offered the Type 212CD model, or Type 214 mod? If it's the former, the IN has probably already made up its mind.

It's a safer bet imo. There's no third country involvement. The Germans make everything from the combat system and weapons to hull and propulsion. Not so in case of the Spaniards.
No german sub launched cruise missile..... only a US one in the TKMS proposal....
 
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No clue . Fear of failure I guess. The designs of all those submarines we've built have been foreign with external consultancy. Perhaps the IN is only now confident & comfortable designing our own indigenous submarine. The flip side of the story is the sorry construction saga of the S-80. I'm sure no Navy wants to go through it .
When you are potent enough to study and built 95% of a SSN, I don't understand why you can't study and produce 95% of a SSK, specially after producing russian and french subs....
What's wrong?
 
OK. some datas about it?
DRDO SLCM
 
When you are potent enough to study and built 95% of a SSN, I don't understand why you can't study and produce 95% of a SSK, specially after producing russian and french subs....
What's wrong?
As I've pointed out earlier the issue isn't manufacturing but designing . We've manufactured both SSKs & SSBNs based on external designs since the late 80s / early 90s
 
When you are potent enough to study and built 95% of a SSN, I don't understand why you can't study and produce 95% of a SSK, specially after producing russian and french subs....
What's wrong?
Same, the rocket engine & jet engine scenario. Both are engine, Both are subs but different.
 
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