Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 13 37.1%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 9 25.7%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 13 37.1%

  • Total voters
    35

What I didn't like in print article is, Indian navy is afraid of Drdo AIP...
Scorpene is getting DRDO AIP because of Navy support. Otherwise could have chosen French AIP

How does the
Drdo AIP compares to Spanish AIP?
 
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Yet these are exceptions in an illustrious career spent building a few hundred submarines over the past several decades
Agree. The West Germans were also generous with ToT when we bought the Type 209 back in the early 1980s. Our 209s were custom-designed and we got the blueprints too) Today, they'll extract their pound of flesh like the French, SoKo or anybody else for that matter.


What's Navantia's comparative record like ?
Fair point. But they weren't complete novices either when they started working on the S-80+. They were partnered with NG on the Scorpene before parting ways to build their own variant with full IP. Reports attribute the miscalculation of original S-80 displacement to a freak error (misplaced decimal point!) which was later fixed with help from GD Electric Boat.

 
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What I didn't like in print article is, Indian navy is afraid of Drdo AIP...
Scorpene is getting DRDO AIP because of Navy support. Otherwise could have chosen French AIP


How does the
Drdo AIP compares to Spanish AIP?
I could've answered we've yet to see both in action but I'd defer to RST. Please pose the question to him & you'd receive your daily dose of once upon a time ...... Reading that should lull you into deep slumber with not a care or worry in the world & a smile on your face while being fast asleep.

What more can you ask for in this day & age ?

Btw speaking of story tellers I haven't seen Avi Raina around since ages. Any new predictions from him now that 2022 didn't work out there or in here ?
 
German sub for India to be design & build from scratch..... Well all new sub need to go through that procedure I think + german design based on type 212CD is much superior to S 80 on both active as well as passive stealth which matters the most. Germany has proven track record when comes to AIP so P-75 will face no problem.
 
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Little bit modification all it require for India needs to make it little bit bigger........ Maybe a misplaced decimal point.
 
What I didn't like in print article is, Indian navy is afraid of Drdo AIP...
Scorpene is getting DRDO AIP because of Navy support. Otherwise could have chosen French AIP

How does the
Drdo AIP compares to Spanish AIP?

Nothing much. They just don't want to get stuck with one supplier. DRDO wants monopoly. Which customer wants to deal with a monopoly?

Plus, if something goes wrong with DRDO's AIP, like maintenance issues or a botched upgrade, the entire submarine fleet is dead in the water. But with a foreign P75I, at least 6-9 subs will be free of that issue.

It's like how the air force grounds jets after a crash. But if the entire fleet is composed only of one type, then the entire air force is grounded. So they are forced to diversify their fleet.

Both AIPs are WIP.
 
Perhaps we should also be informed how many countries are pursuing 2 different AIP systems in their submarines ?

The primary need of the IN was 2 different types of SSKs one of which would be < 2000 tons displacement for littoral patrolling & the other between 3-3500 tons displacement for extended ranges of patrolling & offensive capabilities like hunting other SSKs , land attack etc .

Into this came the conundrum of the AIP. IN seems to have frozen on fuel cells as their preference for AIP. We'd have to check on what exactly did they do to keep NG out of this particular tender & how did that affect the choice of the current participants for at this moment it's becoming clear that IN has tied itself in knots if we're to go by news reports.

Perhaps they need to step back & give time to both participants to validate their designs , further improve their products if they've been already realised or / and keep a close eye on the performance of those submarines as in the case of the S-80 which requires time , let's say around 4 years post which they can begin the exercise in earnest.

In the meanwhile I don't see what prevents us from moving ahead with the Project 76.
 
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P75I is necessary to develop the industry before P76 enters the fray. The same as MRFA to AMCA transition. We obviously wanna get the P76 design bit done, like we did with AMCA, so we know what OEM-related tech to focus on for their assistance before construction begins, like the diesel engine.

As for examples of other navies. The big ones with India-class requirements develop different blocks with new AIP tech, but are largely indigenous. For example, Korea (3 classes, 2 with different AIPs) and Japan (2 classes, 1 with AIP, one without). The small ones only operate 1 class at a time, even Australia. Australia did not want AIP or Li-ion battery, they wanted their traditional snorkel method that put them above water only for a few minutes. The Collins class sucked in all the oxygen it needed, stored it and ducked under water again. They didn't want the risk of dealing with new tech. The Russians and Japanese plan to skip future AIPs in favor of battery-only designs.

So we are following in SoKo's footsteps, 2 classes with 2 AIP designs, one indigenous, one foreign, eventually transitioning to Japan/Russia style with fully indigenous designs built in large numbers in multiple blocks with new tech in each block, no different from our P-15 and P-17 programs. The Korean KSS-III is composed of 9 subs in 3 blocks.

DRDO is designing a new AIP for P76, although the base design is the PAFC.

Both PAFC and the Spanish BEST are the most modern future-ready designs when it comes to AIP 'cause both do not use stored hydrogen, it's produced on demand. The German PEM requires stored hydrogen, which is hazardous and takes up too much space.
 
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South Korean offer to Polish Navy

 
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Here's RST once again making a virtue out of necessity. The reason RoK had two different AIPs are coz they were absorbing submarine mfg tech from HDW / TKMS .

They didn't have a choice when their 2nd series of submarines was ready without an indigenous AIP , hence they went in for the German make.

If I'm not mistaken they're still mfg the same kind of AIPs either thru ToT or through good old cut copy paste in their third series of submarines which means it's effectively the same AIP .

I've tried looking out for the article I read on the issue online long ago but couldn't locate it . Asking RST to do is is futile for his modus operandi itself is R&D - read & dump. Linking sources here with him is like women washing their hair every day . It just doesn't happen.
 
What are the odds the IN won't go for a full electric LIB propulsion for P-75I? The boats won't hit the water until mid to late 2030s anyway.

NG is reportedly offering an evolved LIB-only Scorpene to Indonesia.
 
The Hanwha Ocean AIP uses fuel cells designed by GS Caltex, which is based on PEM, but it's not German. You can't copy-paste proprietary technologies.

Anyway, something I posted back in 2022.
P-75I, if we have two OEMs, assuming a tender start in Aug 2023, then we could see a winner chosen between end-2024 and mid-2025. Contract signature has too many variables to guess, it could take 6 months or 2 years. We love to haggle. I'd say the contract will be signed anytime in 2026.

Pretty much another win for RST, if we are counting the chickens today.

@Ankit Kumar
 
If I'm not mistaken the latest RoK submarines also come equipped with Li Batteries . In any case the Koreans haven't developed their own AIP even in collaboration their preferred SOP.

Meanwhile since nobody's acknowledging RST's soothsaying abilities he's decided to jump the gun & pat his own back. Give him a cookie someone. The child's desperate for attention.
 
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What are the odds the IN won't go for a full electric LIB propulsion for P-75I? The boats won't hit the water until mid to late 2030s anyway.

NG is reportedly offering an evolved LIB-only Scorpene to Indonesia.

There might be advantages to having both that we are not aware of in the civvie circle.

When the French advertised SMX Ocean, they claimed the sub can cruise at 14 knots for a week at high speed when submerged using batteries, kickstart its AIP, run it for 3 months, and high-tail it back to base in a week, the entire process entirely under water. So that's pretty impressive performance when combined. So does AIP also slowly recharge the batteries over 3 months, I don't know.

If P75I does the same, it could "perpetually" stay under water throughout a deployment. For AIP, we would need a month at most.
 
This was the reason why we decided against MESMA AIP for the Kalvari class years ago. I doubt the IN would go for indigenous AIP on P-75I subs. AIP is one factor that could swing the deal in favour of the S-80, imo.
At present I doubt the IN will proceed with the Project 75 I tender . Discretion is the better part of valour.

With so many uncertainties surrounding the project they'd be better advised to focus on getting the 3 additional Scorpenes , successfully commission our desi AIP , get cracking on Project 76 put Project 75 I in the cold storage only to revisit it in 4 years time when the situation clears up & the technologies they desire are validated.