Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Bon Plan]

You don't realise the kind of problem this can create for DA and for Rafale program. Modi is under lots of pressure on this deal and by not meeting the offsets criteria, DA/Safran are only creating more trouble for him.

The engine deal is very crucial for more Rafale orders. One of the reasons why Parrikar went ahead with the deal was the engine tech. By not sharing it, Safran is breaking its promise to a man who is now dead. Its unethical and we Indians don't do it. We honour our committments especially the ones made to a person who is dead. Whole of India will rise against Safran if this happens. Parrikar was a very respected leader in India.

You really think we will give you a full ToT for just 36 planes?
You (the indian forumers) are overestimated the level of ToT agreed by the Rafale team (so agreed by Indian top brass). If we didn't accept a bad deal under the MMRCA 1, it was not to accept to give you the crown jewels for just 36 birds. 360 may be....
Dassault has the habbit to fully answered to a inked deal. India's one will not be different.

 

[Bon Plan]

Actually we wanted a 110KN engine

But Safran can only offer M.88 technology which is their best engine

M88 core was studied for M88-2 of 75KN, M88-3 for 95KN, M88-4 for 105+KN. It was in late 90's....
M88-2 is well known
M88-3 already fly
M88-4 is fully studied. Just give us an order !

 

[vstol Jockey]

The offsets are not going to be a problem. DRDO's decision is still pending.

DRDO has moved on with RR. Safran tried to fool them and went back on the promise. British are leaving EU and want to revive their own industries. They came without any side clauses. The engine being talked about it nearly same as that of tempest. DA/Safran will now find themselves in a sitution from which they can't extricate themselves.

You really think we will give you a full ToT for just 36 planes?
You (the indian forumers) are overestimated the level of ToT agreed by the Rafale team (so agreed by Indian top brass). If we didn't accept a bad deal under the MMRCA 1, it was not to accept to give you the crown jewels for just 36 birds. 360 may be....
Dassault has the habbit to fully answered to a inked deal. India's one will not be different.

So you made a fool of us from the very begining? You seem to have accepted it. You agreed for 36 aircraft order and now you want more and that has not gone down well with Modi. Every Idiot of the world thinks that he can push Modi into a corner without realising that Modi always holds the center in any boxing fight. He pushes his opponents into corner. This govt is a govt of RSS. Try and force the hands of a Brahmin. You will know your real worth.

 

[randomradio]

You really think we will give you a full ToT for just 36 planes?
You (the indian forumers) are overestimated the level of ToT agreed by the Rafale team (so agreed by Indian top brass). If we didn't accept a bad deal under the MMRCA 1, it was not to accept to give you the crown jewels for just 36 birds. 360 may be....
Dassault has the habbit to fully answered to a inked deal. India's one will not be different.

He's referring to ToT on the offsets technology meant for DRDO, not Rafale tech.

 

[Sathya]

Rafale deal is a good deal I believe.
I won't change the opinion until it s proven otherwise beyond doubt.
If there time till 2022, then there is no need to start bashing now itself.
May be we are stressing the offsets, since failure of it will hurt India more.

Having said that,

Something is not getting right with Safran.
I think it's almost decade and half since the beginning.

From Indian perspective,

CAG report of offset s were withheld initially, adding up pressure.
Now that report is out , has added more pressure.

( maybe someone who is willing to transfet tech is already making moves)

Without successfully executing offsets, Next tranche orders will get delayed I think.

That's why we aren't in hurry for next orders.
Explains why we are ordering 3 billion s worth drones now.

I am sure things will get worked out in someway.

i think, We are going between France & USA.. whosoever is willing to work with us, we ll take that route.

 

[AbRaj]

I think it's generally important to remember that the max range of a missile is often not a meaningful measure of its combat capability, nor is it, by the way, a measure of the distance it will travel.

Take two aircraft flying towards each other. When they are 110 km away, aircraft A fires a missile at aircraft B. Aircraft B doesn't evade the missile, and is shot down. Did the missile fly 110 km? No, because aircraft B kept flying toward the missile, too. But it was still used to shoot down a target that was 110 km away at the moment of firing, so let's give it 110 km range.

This is why NEZ is much more meaningful than range -- and also why NEZ are kept a lot more ambiguous and vague than range measures.

Range+NEZ seems more beneficial than anyone of the two alone.
Because even if the jet A has AAM with lesser AAM but larger Range can force your Jet to go defensive instead of engaging the enemy and you cannot use your AAM which has better NEZ due to lesser range.

 

[randomradio]

DRDO has moved on with RR. Safran tried to fool them and went back on the promise. British are leaving EU and want to revive their own industries. They came without any side clauses. The engine being talked about it nearly same as that of tempest. DA/Safran will now find themselves in a sitution from which they can't extricate themselves.

The deal with RR was going to go ahead regardless of whether SAFRAN's deal was successful or not. It's a parallel program.

The idea behind the SAFRAN deal was to make an engine available for LCA and MWF programs. So the K9+ would go on LCA Mk1A. The K10 would have gone on the MWF and perhaps even AMCA Mk1. But now ADA has decided they will stick with GE for all the programs due to the delays.

Also, there are side clauses. All our offsets programs can be renegotiated and have been done before because of the Americans backtracking on offset deals after contracts are signed. Which is actually why Parrikar insisted that the US should first clear technologies that will be transferred and then offer them. The Americans point out that they cannot change their own laws, but the Pentagon later assured us that they will supply stuff that has been promised. Regardless, they have the best history of backtracking on ToT promises more than anyone else.

Tech Transfer Hobbles South Korea's Fighter Program

Seoul’s KF-X fighter program faces a crash over tech transfer issues with the US government.

www.defensenews.com

So what happens is US companies offer technologies, but the USG rejects the transfers after the contract is signed. So everything that you think Boeing has promised to India, all that has to go through USG approval. But the decision is taken only after the contract is signed, so you can't backtrack once it's done.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Rafale deal is a good deal I believe.
I won't change the opinion until it s proven otherwise beyond doubt.
If there time till 2022, then there is no need to start bashing now itself.
May be we are stressing the offsets, since failure of it will hurt India more.

Having said that,

Something is not getting right with Safran.
I think it's almost decade and half since the beginning.

From Indian perspective,

CAG report of offset s were withheld initially, adding up pressure.
Now that report is out , has added more pressure.

( maybe someone who is willing to transfet tech is already making moves)

Without successfully executing offsets, Next tranche orders will get delayed I think.

That's why we aren't in hurry for next orders.
Explains why we are ordering 3 billion s worth drones now.

I am sure things will get worked out in someway.

i think, We are going between France & USA.. whosoever is willing to work with us, we ll take that route.

We will now dry up the assemblyline of Rafale and French will have no money for upgrade of their own Rafales forget about F4. Boeing is offering SH F18-3 at the rate of F-16v meant especially for India and good about $20m lower than the price of Rafale. They know that if they get the IN order, they will get IAF order also just like Mig-29. We had over 165 Jaguars once upon a time and now omnly 120 of them are left which need replacements and we also had over 180 Mig-23BN/27s which also need replacement. IAF needs to replace its present inventory including the aircraft which will become obselete by 2035 and that includes not just Mig-29 but also M2K. In addtiton they need more fighters to rise to a fleet strength of 42 sqns. We are looking for something like over 1000 fighters in next 15 years.
French did there biggest mistake as they thought that the L1 of MMRCA-1 will get additional orders but GOI changed the rules and now L1 of MMRCA -2 will have new L1. Its a new contest and new deal. French have committed suicide with those high prices and trying to eat fast.

 

[randomradio]

Rafale deal is a good deal I believe.
I won't change the opinion until it s proven otherwise beyond doubt.
If there time till 2022, then there is no need to start bashing now itself.
May be we are stressing the offsets, since failure of it will hurt India more.

Having said that,

Something is not getting right with Safran.
I think it's almost decade and half since the beginning.

From Indian perspective,

CAG report of offset s were withheld initially, adding up pressure.
Now that report is out , has added more pressure.

( maybe someone who is willing to transfet tech is already making moves)

Without successfully executing offsets, Next tranche orders will get delayed I think.

That's why we aren't in hurry for next orders.
Explains why we are ordering 3 billion s worth drones now.

I am sure things will get worked out in someway.

i think, We are going between France & USA.. whosoever is willing to work with us, we ll take that route.

CAG's report is quite premature for the Rafale since the contract is not complete yet, or it has been taken out of context for what is merely an observation.

 

[AbRaj]

This is one of the reason why i want Uncle sam's f15 with us. They will keep the promises most of the time.

My main worry is, i am an impression that you want rafale over any other aircraft & if you are telling its a white elephant. Then we have made bad choice, a very bad choice. Hope we will correct that in mmrca2 with f15EX.

And lastly, you are ex IN guy, do you think that our planned numbers Visakhapatnam class Destroyers & Nilagiri class frigates are sufficient?
When designs like LCS are available, why we are not designing such vessels to replace our ancient corvettes like INS Vibhuthi?

Yes definitely. We are buying 50 gms each of Super Growlers and Exxx to keep every forumer happy. It’s party time anyway.

 

[Hydra]

Yes definitely. We are buying 50 gms each of Super Growlers and Exxx to keep every forumer happy. It’s party time anyway.

Why not f15EX? Its not about making every one happy. We need to see what we are going to face tomorrow, and plan our procurement

 

[AbRaj]

Why not f15EX? Its not about making every one happy. We need to see what we are going to face tomorrow, and plan our procurement

F35 and JF17/Fck1 anyone

 

[vstol Jockey]

without F-18 or least likely F-16V deal, we can't avoid sanctions from US under their rules.

 

[lcafanboy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1309202845644648448

 

[A Person]

without F-18 or least likely F-16V deal, we can't avoid sanctions from US under their rules.

Thanks for this outburst of sincerity. Where's the tough-guy talk suddenly? Instead it's all "oh no we gotta buy US crap or they're gonna sanction us for not having bought enough US crap", absolutely zero pride.

 

[randomradio]

We will now dry up the assemblyline of Rafale and French will have no money for upgrade of their own Rafales forget about F4. Boeing is offering SH F18-3 at the rate of F-16v meant especially for India and good about $20m lower than the price of Rafale. They know that if they get the IN order, they will get IAF order also just like Mig-29. We had over 165 Jaguars once upon a time and now omnly 120 of them are left which need replacements and we also had over 180 Mig-23BN/27s which also need replacement. IAF needs to replace its present inventory including the aircraft which will become obselete by 2035 and that includes not just Mig-29 but also M2K. In addtiton they need more fighters to rise to a fleet strength of 42 sqns. We are looking for something like over 1000 fighters in next 15 years.
French did there biggest mistake as they thought that the L1 of MMRCA-1 will get additional orders but GOI changed the rules and now L1 of MMRCA -2 will have new L1. Its a new contest and new deal. French have committed suicide with those high prices and trying to eat fast.

Price is irrelevant in the first phase of the competition. You need to get shortlisted first and only then prices come in. So even if SH is cheaper than LCA, it will first have to get shortlisted, which is entirely dependent on the IAF and no one else.

Also, no twin engine aircraft can compare with Rafale in LCC costs. It's 'cause Rafale completely eliminates overhauls.

 

[randomradio]

without F-18 or least likely F-16V deal, we can't avoid sanctions from US under their rules.

That's actually one of the biggest reasons why MRFA will not see an American fighter jet.

LCA and MWF are entirely dependent on American engines. We can't afford to get even MRFA sanctioned by America. That's 500 fighter jets.

In fact America wants us to use their tech so they can use sanctions as a threat and blackmail us.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1309202845644648448

That's a complete U-turn from the CAG report. So the CAG report was definitely premature or misquoted.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rafale offsets: New fighter jet engine complex coming up, French assistance likely

NEW DELHI: Even as the central auditor has raised questions on non-completion of high end technology transfer as part of the Rafale fighter jet offsets deal, ET has learnt that a new fighter jet engine complex spearheaded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the works, with advanced discussions on for a completely new engine for future Indian fighters with a French manufacturer.

The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work.

French engine manufacturer Safran has offered a compete technology transfer to develop the engine and use the offset credits from the Rafale deal and is also tying up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited NSE 1.02 % (HAL) for transferring manufacturing technology for high end engines.

“We are signing an agreement related to the technology needed for high thrust engine manufacturing. The technology will be common to the Rafale engines that can be supported by us and would also be useful for the 110 kn engine project,” HAL Chairman R Madhavan told ET.

While the new engine complex is yet to be set up, the broad understanding is that it would cater to high end fighter jet engines while HAL would be involved in lower thrust engines for helicopters, light transport aircraft, UAVs and trainers.

HAL is also likely to be part of the 110 kn engine project as a manufacturing partner. As reported by ET, the air force is keen that the future AMCA fighter jet be powered by an indigenous engine to ensure self reliance. While the first squadron of the AMCA fighters would need a foreign engine due to timelines, future squadrons would be powered by an Indian engine, which could possibly be christened the Kaveri.

As reported, in a report referring to the Rafale fighter jet deal, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) pointed out on Wednesday that plans for transfer of high end technology as part of the offsets deal have not been completed and it not clear if it will even take place in the future.

ET has been reporting that plans to use the Rafale offsets for obtaining jet engine technology has been hanging since 2016, even though French company Safran has been in talks with Indian stakeholder. French companies can modify offset plans at any point but have a huge obligation - to the tune of 3.5 billion Euro – that need to be competed in the next three years, though this timeline can be extended by the government.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Rafale offsets: New fighter jet engine complex coming up, French assistance likely

The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work.

www.google.com

 

[RISING SUN]

NEW DELHI: As many as 10 Rafale fighters have been handed over to India so far, on schedule despite the pandemic, which is a remarkable performance. Five have been ferried to India, the next five could arrive soon depending on IAF’s schedule. France is committed to defence technology transfer to India under the ‘Make in India’ programme, French ambassador Emmanuel Lenain has said.

Committed to defence technology transfer under Make in India: French envoy

“The next batch of five Rafale fighters has been handed over to India, they are in France and it is up to the IAF now when to fly them here. IAF has excellent pilots,” French ambassador Emmanuel Lenain told ET in an exclusive interaction close on the heels of the French defence ministers visit...

economictimes.indiatimes.com