Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Given the pace at which Indian R&D works, take the Astra mk1's pace. SFDR making it to a viable long-range system might be long time away. In the interim, if RVV-PD can be positioned as a competitor to the Derby ER which IAF plans to use as an interim stop-gap, it has the potential to enter IAF/IN service given (272+ 65upg+45k and additional upg's ordered) Close to 400 launch platforms. If Israeli can make the play for Derby ER for all of them, I am sure Russians have something in pipeline for the same pie. We are looking at close to 1200 missiles atleast and given the russians can create a package deal like RVV-PD, RVV -BD, R74, KH37, KH31P combo; they still have a good chance to be in the game.

Astra Mk1 was our very first missile and went through 3 different design stages. The same won't repeat with Mk2 and SFDR. Mk2 will apparently begin flight testing in 2022 and become available after 3 years.

Anyway the MKI in its current form cannot use a ramjet missile to its full potential. It's unlikely it will even be able to use Derby ER to its full potential. It requires the Irbis or AESA upgrade. And from the time the upgrade program starts to when serial deliveries commence it's going to take at least 6 or 7 years, so we are talking 2027 or 2028. Plenty of time to make the SFDR available by then. Similarly, the Mig-29s also cannot use the missile to its max capabilities. So it's unlikely the IAF will pay a major premium to the Russians for a ramjet missile they cannot use properly when a significantly cheaper dual thrust missile will suit us just fine.

Second problem is networking. The issue with imports is they can only be used on captive airframes. So if we go for Russian imports, then something like CEC is going to be very difficult with our multi-national fleet. We need our missiles to be able to communicate with other aircraft as well, including AWACS and SAMs, all using a common datalink (from Israel), hence the need to Indianise all our weapons.

One more thing, what we know right now is the ramjet version was developed by Vympel using their own funds. So the viability of the project is in question, unless the Russian Aerospace Forces accept it first. It's likely that it's still undergoing development and may only become available with the Su-57 Mk2 after 2024. Also, the Russians are currently working on a near-space fighter jet, which will need scramjet missiles. They might skip the ramjet phase.
 
Which A2G Weapon systems? (Given the bomb truck reference) MKI's A2G and AShm portfolio are quite extensive.
A to G mission consists not only to carry a full amount of bombs or missiles and deliver it on a single and non moving target, in a area without threat.
MKI was not design to be an air to ground platform. It's only, at best, a secondary mission.
But sure to fire Brahmos on a well known target, it's nice.
 
A to G mission consists not only to carry a full amount of bombs or missiles and deliver it on a single and non moving target, in a area without threat.
MKI was not design to be an air to ground platform. It's only, at best, a secondary mission.
But sure to fire Brahmos on a well known target, it's nice.

MKI can NOW also fire SPICE bombs
And also our own Glide Bombs with 100 KM range

In our " Friendly Neighborhood " there will be many Juicy targets in that range
 
By the time jaguar gets to the launch altitude, the war would be over.

Wikipedia tells that Jaguar can climb 9000 metres in 2 minutes

Secondly Both SAAW and Rudram 1 Anti Radiation missile are being integrated on Jaguars

We already have limited airframes

We have to use every asset to its maximum limit
 
MKI can NOW also fire SPICE bombs
And also our own Glide Bombs with 100 KM range

In our " Friendly Neighborhood " there will be many Juicy targets in that range
What he said is Su30 don't have appropriate to venture deep into Enemy Territory for AtoG missions due to lack of proper defense systems. It'll look like a light bulb glowing on Enemy air defense radars. and without superior BVRAAM it will be shot down in no time

what it can do is to carry a load of standoff munitions like spike and brahmos , go to the LAC and unload at the target from the safe distance
 
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I think same time to adapt a new weapon on Rafale, whether it be Spice or your bomb. Just a difference indeed : one is war proven and not the other.
Rafale is not in large number to justify the investment when the alternatives are already there. Our local fighters will get our local spike/hammer alternatives.
Make no mistake, if (a big IF) we will buy Rafale in significant number to justify the cost, we will do it. Because hammer and even spike are quite expensive for what they offer
 
What he said is Su30 don't have appropriate to venture deep into Enemy Territory for AtoG missions due to lack of proper defense systems. It'll look like a light bulb glowing on Enemy air defense radars. and without superior BVRAAM it will be shot down in no time

what it can do is to carry a load of standoff munitions like spike and brahmos , go to the LAC and unload at the target from the safe distance

 
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Why ordering SPICE and Hammer?
Why asking to adapt Spice on Rafale and not your own bomb?

Well obviously our own indigenous weapons will take time to be Combat proven

That is why we are eagerly waiting for Pakistan to give us a chance to test them

But definitely 10 years from now
ALL our Air To Ground Munitions will be our own indigenous ones
 
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Why ordering SPICE and Hammer?
Why asking to adapt Spice on Rafale and not your own bomb?
I think it is more about the accuracy and how far along our weapons have been tested / inducted. The weapon's CEP makes a lot of difference when you have a smaller target like the Balakot infrastructure. All our domestic ordnance have been integrated and tested with Su-30 MKI and not with French Mirages / Rafales. Hence we need a Spice and a Hammer. Hopefully our domestic ordnances are tested / integrated with Tejas Mk1A / Mk2, when they are eventually produced.
 
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Brahmos is only on a few modified MKIs, not on the whole fleet. That'll have to wait for the Brahmos-NG, which is planned to be integrated on Rafale too.

In that sense, pretty much everything Indian that will go on MKI will eventually find its way on the Rafale.

Anyway, I was referring to what's available right now.
 
Rafale is not in large number to justify the investment when the alternatives are already there. Our local fighters will get our local spike/hammer alternatives.
Make no mistake, if (a big IF) we will buy Rafale in significant number to justify the cost, we will do it. Because hammer and even spike are quite expensive for what they offer
So why asking to integrate SPICE on Rafale when Hammer was already fitted and war proven ?
 
So why asking to integrate SPICE on Rafale when Hammer was already fitted and war proven ?
  • Too freaking expensive
  • Dropping stuff from a non contested air space won't make it proven. For us proven is SPICE, dropping it from airspace of a nuclear armed nation.
  • Commonality with Mirage fleet.
 
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So why asking to integrate SPICE on Rafale when Hammer was already fitted and war proven ?

It's faster to train pilots when they are familiar with the weapons they have already trained with.

Anyway, not going for Hammer was in order to reduce the total cost of the contract, it was a politically sensitive matter. A new contract could always be signed later on for ammo, which is likely happening right now, possibly earlier than planned because of China.
 
  • Too freaking expensive
  • Dropping stuff from a non contested air space won't make it proven. For us proven is SPICE, dropping it from airspace of a nuclear armed nation.
  • Commonality with Mirage fleet.
Hammer was used in Lybia against Kadhafi army (it destroyed a jet on the ground, and a lot of tanks and artillery), Syria, and more than probably when a secret strike hit a turkish air base in Lybia this summer.
It's faster to train pilots when they are familiar with the weapons they have already trained with.

Anyway, not going for Hammer was in order to reduce the total cost of the contract, it was a politically sensitive matter. A new contract could always be signed later on for ammo, which is likely happening right now, possibly earlier than planned because of China.
I see Hammer in IAF as an urgent stop gap, waiting for SPICE integration in 2022. Probably in small quantity.
But it offers more versatility than a classical glide bomb, so I think IAF will appreciate it.