Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
- Thread starter Herciv
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My point is that though our economy is much better than what it was 10 years ago , But we still spend "Dollars " in a very controlled Manner
Rupee Expenditure is Not a problem
So that is why we try to manufacture
Equipment at.Home , even if it is more expensive like in case of Su 30.
Same is the case for Artilerry , MBRLs
And Missiles.
Otherwise we could.have directly gone for 126 Imported Rafales and scrapped MiG 21s long back
So if Missiles can do the Job of " Bombing " a target , we would need less number of planes
Mirage may be potent till 2030,what will be the case after 2030?
Since we have limited number of mirages, that query is irrelevant now. But if we have purchased mirages in large numbers after 99,it would have been a burden for IAF, they need to operate a large fleet of outdated aircraft beyond 2030 which is incapable of carrying moder weaponry like Meteor missile. Purchasing Mirages after 99 will be like a Jaguar 2 saga, the oem country is no longer operating the platform and all upgrading cost must be spend by our own to a foreign country.
Everything gets outdated within 15 years.
Had we gone for M2000s in the early 2000s, we would have begun an upgrade program by 2025. They would have followed the MKI's timetable.
At the high end, the MKI is already outdated today and needs upgrades. The latest Rafale F3R will also get outdated by 2035 and the Rafale F4.2 will get outdated before 2045.
Early 2000s was a pretty good time to buy 120+ of them. We already operated many of them beforehand and the MLU program is still going on. Other air forces are also yet to get their versions upgraded. Can't compare it to the Jaguar or Mig-21.
When you say that a plane is outdated , you mean that it cannot defeat the enemy SAMs or it cannot take on the
Enemy Fighters who will be patrolling their Airspace
If a Su 30 plane can drop stand off munitions like Spice and Brahmos
and even Anti Radiation Missiles like Rudra 1 as recently shown by Su 30
How can it be called outdated
We have also acquired Newer K 77 for Su 30
You are correct. We are still kids and want the latest toys even if we can't afford. That said, every defense equipment will age and even become irrelevant over its life cycle. Hence we keep updating them until it can't be upgraded anymore. That said, similar to the Mig-29 UPG & Mirage-2000 upgrades, the Su-30 MKI needs an upgrade. It all depends on what the IAF wants and when we can find the $$$ to fund the program. We can assume that it would cost around $20-$30 million for each aircraft depending on the scope of the upgrade. We are definitely short by 10 - 12 squadrons and will take us 10-15 years to bridge this gap, if we start now. With every passing year, we are becoming a bit more self reliant on the missiles & bombs. So it is a matter of how best we use the limited funds we have.
I definitely agree that we need new fighter platforms and we needed it a decade ago. The government has to approve / sign the deal for 83 Tejas Mk1A in this quarter and make a decision on 114 MRCA 2.0 by this year end (Rafale is the way to go).
The discussion , right now , is about
Missiles VS Planes
Missiles need lesser outflow of " Dollars " as compared to new fighter planes
Outdated simply means no longer current. You are confusing it with obsolete. Outdated is still relevant. Also when it comes to stand-off strike, the examples you have quoted, even a trainer can do that, but it has to do it with the support of jets that are current.
Today, Rafale F3R is advanced, or current, whereas MKI is outdated and Mig-27 is obsolete. Then there are different degrees of obsolescence.
Then it depends on the capability of the adversary as well. MKI is still advanced compared to PAF, but outdated compared to PLAAF. MKI is obsolete compared to the USAF. It needs a digital EW suite and either the Irbis or an AESA radar to stay current.
Then of course there's strategy and tactics that can be employed based on the design of the jet. For example, the M2000 supported by the Rafale will still be more effective in A2A even if the MKI is upgraded with latest avionics. It can use its low RCS and active cancellation to silently get closer to the enemy and achieve a silent kill, whereas the MKI will still carry around its biggest weakness in the form of a large RCS. But at the same time, the MKI is a far superior bomb truck compared to either the Rafale or M2000 and its massive radar can light up the skies better than either jet as well. The MKI-Mig-21 combo worked during the skirmish in pretty much the same way, both worked together to hide their weaknesses and show off their strenghts.
Anyway, no, the K-77 is still not Flanker-ready yet. It's only available with the Su-57. You are referring to the RVV-SD, which is equivalent to the Aim-120C7 and Astra Mk1.
By the time jaguar gets to the launch altitude, the war would be over.
Some sections of IAF hate the LCA.. they would take anything over it.
RVV-PD Ramjet and R37M (RVV-BD), both ready for the flanker, and soon on the list for IAF.
R37M from the SU35
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Thats a miss conception, you need heavy investment on missile inventory to beat aircraft for targeting installations. Missiles have its limitations & advantages over aircraft, but you cannot replace aircraft with missiles.
During war time aircrafts are much cheaper over missiles.
To M2000, sure. To Rafale, not really. In term of load maybe, in term of weapon system far away.
RVV-BD was always meant for export. The non-export version is the R-37M. It's an HVA-killer though. The rumour mill says the RVV-BD has already undergone testing in India. I hope the K-100 has been deployed, as per rumours. There's a hypersonic AWACS-killer project planned with Brahmos Aerospace.
Anyway, the RVV-BD, RVV-MD and RVV-SD are all weapons initially created for the Su-35 and then remade for export.
The ramjet R-77 requires Russian orders before anyone can bother looking at it. As for India, we are currently chasing after the SFDR derived missile, which uses a Russian motor anyway. The IAF wants completely Indianised missiles from here on, minus the Russian motor. It's the same reason we do not operate the Yakhont, but are aiming for the Indianisation of the Brahmos missile.
Also, it's not RVV-PD or RVV-AE-PD, that project died a long time ago. The latest one is a modernisation of the K-77M, the project name is called 180-PD, whereas the K-77M is called 180. I suspect it will first be made for Su-57, then moved to Russian Flankers, and then derivative missiles will be made for export.
Here's some cool CGI.
RVV-AE-PD 3D model Development For Su-57.
RVV-AE-PD is a New Variant of the R-77 Air to Air missile OF the Russian Armed Forces that adds RamJets to Improve its range up to 80 Nautical miles.
cubanace-simulations.artstation.com
Bomb truck means large payload.
In terms of weapons, both are similar though, you forget that the MKI also carries new Indian weapons. Plus both have unique weapons, for example Rafale has Hammer and SCALP while MKI has KH-31 and Brahmos.
Given the pace at which Indian R&D works, take the Astra mk1's pace. SFDR making it to a viable long-range system might be long time away. In the interim, if RVV-PD can be positioned as a competitor to the Derby ER which IAF plans to use as an interim stop-gap, it has the potential to enter IAF/IN service given (272+ 65upg+45k and additional upg's ordered) Close to 400 launch platforms. If Israeli can make the play for Derby ER for all of them, I am sure Russians have something in pipeline for the same pie. We are looking at close to 1200 missiles atleast and given the russians can create a package deal like RVV-PD, RVV -BD, R74, KH37, KH31P combo; they still have a good chance to be in the game.RVV-BD was always meant for export. The non-export version is the R-37M. It's an HVA-killer though. The rumour mill says the RVV-BD has already undergone testing in India. I hope the K-100 has been deployed, as per rumours. There's a hypersonic AWACS-killer project planned with Brahmos Aerospace.
Anyway, the RVV-BD, RVV-MD and RVV-SD are all weapons initially created for the Su-35 and then remade for export.
The ramjet R-77 requires Russian orders before anyone can bother looking at it. As for India, we are currently chasing after the SFDR derived missile, which uses a Russian motor anyway. The IAF wants completely Indianised missiles from here on, minus the Russian motor. It's the same reason we do not operate the Yakhont, but are aiming for the Indianisation of the Brahmos missile.
Also, it's not RVV-PD or RVV-AE-PD, that project died a long time ago. The latest one is a modernisation of the K-77M, the project name is called 180-PD, whereas the K-77M is called 180. I suspect it will first be made for Su-57, then moved to Russian Flankers, and then derivative missiles will be made for export.
Here's some cool CGI.
RVV-AE-PD 3D model Development For Su-57.
RVV-AE-PD is a New Variant of the R-77 Air to Air missile OF the Russian Armed Forces that adds RamJets to Improve its range up to 80 Nautical miles.
Which A2G Weapon systems? (Given the bomb truck reference) MKI's A2G and AShm portfolio are quite extensive.