Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

I dont what is giving IAF & mod confidence to go on new aircraft purchase. The rapid modernisation of our enemy in east is not giving any headache for them.
If tweets of Pravin sawhney, the Chinese agent is to be believed, a Chinese military attack on is coming in 2023.

A Chinese attack on India in 2023 will go very badly for them. Their best time is to attack this year after the snow melts. The more they delay it, the worse it's gonna get for them. We will have built most of the border infrastructure we need, introduced our most advanced weapons, and most importantly, plugged most of our shotcomings. Their next window is after they finish their naval modernisation, which could take a decade plus.

I'm actually hoping any Chinese attack, if they have planned something, happens only in 2023 or beyond. Compared to what we will be in 2023, we are at our weakest right now.

 

[Hydra]

A Chinese attack on India in 2023 will go very badly for them. Their best time is to attack this year after the snow melts. The more they delay it, the worse it's gonna get for them. We will have built most of the border infrastructure we need, introduced our most advanced weapons, and most importantly, plugged most of our shotcomings. Their next window is after they finish their naval modernisation, which could take a decade plus.

I'm actually hoping any Chinese attack, if they have planned something, happens only in 2023 or beyond. Compared to what we will be in 2023, we are at our weakest right now.

The problem is still we are lethargic in inducting potent platforms. No follow up orders fir rafale & fast tracking of mmrca2. I know before 2023 we cannot induct entire second batch, but definitely any thing extra from mere 36 will come handy.
Finally pravin sawhney is the one the indian defence analyst i hate most, but his observation during 2017 was that Chinese will not leave doklam and they will venture in to other areas, that came true in march 2020. His another prediction is 2023 Chinese invasion.

 

[randomradio]

The problem is still we are lethargic in inducting potent platforms. No follow up orders fir rafale & fast tracking of mmrca2. I know before 2023 we cannot induct entire second batch, but definitely any thing extra from mere 36 will come handy.

Everything moves in a flow. Once Rafale is inducted by the end of 2022, the LCA Mk1A's induction will begin. As Mk1A's induction is coming to a close, Mk2 will begin. And as Mk2 reaches a certain milestone in inductions, MRFA inductions will begin. As Mk2 inductions come to an end, AMCA Mk2 will begin. And as MRFA inductions end, something new will take its place.

In the meantime, the IAF has decided they will bring in 20+ Mig-29s and 12 more MKIs as a cheaper and quicker alternative to 36 more Rafales. There's also about 22 LCAs pending delivery. Even without counting the first 36 Rafales, the IAF is going to get 138 new jets over the next 6-7 years.

Let's not forget that the S-400 and MRSAM will alleviate the need for many fighter jets in just the next 2 or 3 years.

So even without the extra Rafales, the IAF have a pretty busy induction schedule.

Finally pravin sawhney is the one the indian defence analyst i hate most, but his observation during 2017 was that Chinese will not leave doklam and they will venture in to other areas, that came true in march 2020. His another prediction is 2023 Chinese invasion.

There's nothing spectacular in his observations. Whatever he's said was already predicted long before that.

 

[raghu1974]

Everything moves in a flow. Once Rafale is inducted by the end of 2022, the LCA Mk1A's induction will begin. As Mk1A's induction is coming to a close, Mk2 will begin. And as Mk2 reaches a certain milestone in inductions, MRFA inductions will begin. As Mk2 inductions come to an end, AMCA Mk2 will begin. And as MRFA inductions end, something new will take its place.

In the meantime, the IAF has decided they will bring in 20+ Mig-29s and 12 more MKIs as a cheaper and quicker alternative to 36 more Rafales. There's also about 22 LCAs pending delivery. Even without counting the first 36 Rafales, the IAF is going to get 138 new jets over the next 6-7 years.

Let's not forget that the S-400 and MRSAM will alleviate the need for many fighter jets in just the next 2 or 3 years.

So even without the extra Rafales, the IAF have a pretty busy induction schedule.



There's nothing spectacular in his observations. Whatever he's said was already predicted long before that.

China will not start a war. My humble submission is that the Chinese leadership is not ready for any war let alone with India. They need to practice their tactics and weapons against a much smaller nation like Taiwan or even Japan who both don't have a nuclear weapon. China is all talk and no action. They have the best of the weapons and most of their Infantry troops are backed by armored vehicles. They have the ways and means to hurt us with 5th generation warfare. Have they done it? China is like your rich, big (fat) & obnoxious class mate who has all the toys whom we are scared off. The rich kid has few others who tow his line and you have Pakistan / North Korea. The rich kid never fights but uses others to fight for him. China will have opportunities or will make opportunities to attack us every day of the year but the question is will it. So its not when will China attack us but will China attack us. Irrespective of what shiny toys you have, China will always have it better. But the key here is if we have the deterrent to make China think twice before it attacks us. The answer is an overwhelming Yes. The deterrents were the slew of missile tests and the orders placed for arms, ammunitions and fighters. India will prioritize, manufacture and / or purchase those weapon systems that will prevent a war with China.

India's strategy is to have the military superiority over Pakistan and deterrence against China. India will order more Rafale's or execute the MRCA 2.0 when it has the funds to do so. The focus for the next 3-4 years is to improve the countries infrastructure (civil & military) to facilitate the economic growth. That will inturn fuel the increase in defense spending, including CAPEX.

 

[Hydra]

China will not start a war. My humble submission is that the Chinese leadership is not ready for any war let alone with India. They need to practice their tactics and weapons against a much smaller nation like Taiwan or even Japan who both don't have a nuclear weapon. China is all talk and no action. They have the best of the weapons and most of their Infantry troops are backed by armored vehicles. They have the ways and means to hurt us with 5th generation warfare. Have they done it? China is like your rich, big (fat) & obnoxious class mate who has all the toys whom we are scared off. The rich kid has few others who tow his line and you have Pakistan / North Korea. The rich kid never fights but uses others to fight for him. China will have opportunities or will make opportunities to attack us every day of the year but the question is will it. So its not when will China attack us but will China attack us. Irrespective of what shiny toys you have, China will always have it better. But the key here is if we have the deterrent to make China think twice before it attacks us. The answer is an overwhelming Yes. The deterrents were the slew of missile tests and the orders placed for arms, ammunitions and fighters. India will prioritize, manufacture and / or purchase those weapon systems that will prevent a war with China.

India's strategy is to have the military superiority over Pakistan and deterrence against China. India will order more Rafale's or execute the MRCA 2.0 when it has the funds to do so. The focus for the next 3-4 years is to improve the countries infrastructure (civil & military) to facilitate the economic growth. That will inturn fuel the increase in defense spending, including CAPEX.

The problems with we indians is we put bet on others, when they captured few peaks most of the forum members were in an impression is that they will vacate those posts immediately, if not definitely before the winter time. When winter arrives we beleives that they will not survive the harsh conditions, they still siting on our land. What i want to tell is that china can fight India if they wants, just like we can fight Pakistan and win if we want.
And the best way to counter Chinese is improve our military the way IAF moving with new procurement be it follow up orders or mmrca2 is a disappointing, they way mod & CDS ditching Navy is also a disappointing development.
And lastly not least, japan is a military power, look at their Navy & Airforce, it can eat even China & India hand to hand. Only area japs are behind Chinese or india is Ballistic missiles & Nukes, but since they are under the protection of Uncle Sam, that Chinese advantage is irrelevant.

 

[Hydra]

Everything moves in a flow. Once Rafale is inducted by the end of 2022, the LCA Mk1A's induction will begin. As Mk1A's induction is coming to a close, Mk2 will begin. And as Mk2 reaches a certain milestone in inductions, MRFA inductions will begin. As Mk2 inductions come to an end, AMCA Mk2 will begin. And as MRFA inductions end, something new will take its place.

In the meantime, the IAF has decided they will bring in 20+ Mig-29s and 12 more MKIs as a cheaper and quicker alternative to 36 more Rafales. There's also about 22 LCAs pending delivery. Even without counting the first 36 Rafales, the IAF is going to get 138 new jets over the next 6-7 years.

Let's not forget that the S-400 and MRSAM will alleviate the need for many fighter jets in just the next 2 or 3 years.

So even without the extra Rafales, the IAF have a pretty busy induction schedule.



There's nothing spectacular in his observations. Whatever he's said was already predicted long before that.

I was hearing about new requirements of new fighter soon after kargil war, the initial number was 126 and we just ordered mere 36 Rafales in last 20 years. Yeas, things are flowing but the pace of flow is the real worrying part..

 

[randomradio]

China will not start a war. My humble submission is that the Chinese leadership is not ready for any war let alone with India. They need to practice their tactics and weapons against a much smaller nation like Taiwan or even Japan who both don't have a nuclear weapon. China is all talk and no action. They have the best of the weapons and most of their Infantry troops are backed by armored vehicles. They have the ways and means to hurt us with 5th generation warfare. Have they done it? China is like your rich, big (fat) & obnoxious class mate who has all the toys whom we are scared off. The rich kid has few others who tow his line and you have Pakistan / North Korea. The rich kid never fights but uses others to fight for him. China will have opportunities or will make opportunities to attack us every day of the year but the question is will it. So its not when will China attack us but will China attack us. Irrespective of what shiny toys you have, China will always have it better. But the key here is if we have the deterrent to make China think twice before it attacks us. The answer is an overwhelming Yes. The deterrents were the slew of missile tests and the orders placed for arms, ammunitions and fighters. India will prioritize, manufacture and / or purchase those weapon systems that will prevent a war with China.

India's strategy is to have the military superiority over Pakistan and deterrence against China. India will order more Rafale's or execute the MRCA 2.0 when it has the funds to do so. The focus for the next 3-4 years is to improve the countries infrastructure (civil & military) to facilitate the economic growth. That will inturn fuel the increase in defense spending, including CAPEX.

Taiwan and Japan are far out of their reach with their current capabilities. Attacking either country will see the involvement of the US anyway. Without an equivalent navy, their ability to fight Taiwan or Japan is pretty much zero.

Their best bet to sharpen their knife would be a war with India or Vietnam.

As of today, except for some tactical advantages on the ground and better trained and experienced manpower we do not have much of this deterrence against China. They completely outspend us in every domain. Within just 5 years they have completely overtaken us technologically.

 

[randomradio]

I was hearing about new requirements of new fighter soon after kargil war, the initial number was 126 and we just ordered mere 36 Rafales in last 20 years. Yeas, things are flowing but the pace of flow is the real worrying part..

The requirement for 4th gen fighter jets is from the 80s. We ordered M2000 and Mig-29, and one of those were supposed to have been in production. The IAF wanted M2000, the plan was to buy 40 and then manufacture 110 more, but that failed. GoI wanted Mig-29, but SU collapsed and that also failed.

After Kargil War, the IAF's M2000 request was renewed and an RFI was sent out in 2001 under NDA, and M2000, F-16 and Gripen answered. Then a new RFI was sent out in 2004 under UPA for Rafale class jets and that turned into the MMRCA program in 2007.

 

[Milspec]

The requirement for 4th gen fighter jets is from the 80s. We ordered M2000 and Mig-29, and one of those were supposed to have been in production. The IAF wanted M2000, the plan was to buy 40 and then manufacture 110 more, but that failed. GoI wanted Mig-29, but SU collapsed and that also failed.

After Kargil War, the IAF's M2000 request was renewed and an RFI was sent out in 2001 under NDA, and M2000, F-16 and Gripen answered. Then a new RFI was sent out in 2004 under UPA for Rafale class jets and that turned into the MMRCA program in 2007.

It's just that last two decades feel a bit lost, in the 80 and right through the 90's India was manufacturing Mig21; and assembling 23/27's and Jags.
In parallel, GoI was still able to procure Mig29's and M2K's, while in the last two decades from frontline perspective we have continued production of the MKI and not procured anything until the 36 Rafales.
Some out of the box thinking is necessary.

 

[_Anonymous_]

It's just that last two decades feel a bit lost, in the 80 and right through the 90's India was manufacturing Mig21; and assembling 23/27's and Jags.
In parallel, GoI was still able to procure Mig29's and M2K's, while in the last two decades from frontline perspective we have continued production of the MKI and not procured anything until the 36 Rafales.
Some out of the box thinking is necessary.

Ironically, we were a hand to mouth nation right upto 2000. That didn't prevent our respective administrations from equipping our armed forces with the best Or at least attempting to do so unlike in the Nehruvian era with the lessons of 1962 having been fully learnt & absorbed.

The drift as we see it is most pronounced since 2000 & I'd include this administration in it where our economy is ironically doing much better than what was the story for the last half of the 20th century.

 

[Milspec]

Ironically, we were a hand to mouth nation right upto 2000. That didn't prevent our respective administrations from equipping our armed forces with the best Or at least attempting to do so unlike in the Nehruvian era with the lessons of 1962 having been fully learnt & absorbed.

The drift as we see it is most pronounced since 2000 & I'd include this administration in it where our economy is ironically doing much better than what was the story for the last half of the 20th century.

Some of it should also be attributed to the MKI Platform. Even if we did not procure additional platforms, we added large numbers of MKI's and just the massive firepower it brought might have made our defence planners a bit too comfortable. Then there was this Idea of LCA finally fructifying which it still hasn't. IAF at this point will commit to a paper ORCA to a functional MK2 for some reason.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Some of it should also be attributed to the MKI Platform. Even if we did not procure additional platforms, we added large numbers of MKI's and just the massive firepower it brought might have made our defence planners a bit too comfortable.

Not entirely accurate. In case of the IAF, There was the M2K saga post Kargil which evolved into the MMRCA saga & has continually metmorphosed or metastasied - depending on your take, during it & since.

Then there was this Idea of LCA finally fructifying which it still hasn't. IAF at this point will commit to a paper ORCA to a functional MK2 for some reason.

I think barring the MMRCA-2. 0 / MRFA, there's more clarity on the road map with the ADA definitely showing signs of improvement & the IAF on board although the MRFA tender still forms one of the most vital components of the IAFs inventory.

What's baffling is the utter lack of urgency as observed with the order in case of the Mk1a still pending- all this with the Chinese breathing down our neck.

Didn't get the last sentence.

 

[Hydra]

The requirement for 4th gen fighter jets is from the 80s. We ordered M2000 and Mig-29, and one of those were supposed to have been in production. The IAF wanted M2000, the plan was to buy 40 and then manufacture 110 more, but that failed. GoI wanted Mig-29, but SU collapsed and that also failed.

After Kargil War, the IAF's M2000 request was renewed and an RFI was sent out in 2001 under NDA, and M2000, F-16 and Gripen answered. Then a new RFI was sent out in 2004 under UPA for Rafale class jets and that turned into the MMRCA program in 2007.

I was akid in 99, a report on IAF requirement was surfaced in local news paper. Even now most of the mainstream news papers doesn't have much clue on defense matters, it was pathetic 20 years ago.
Same news paper said one interesting article in 2001,which they wrote after Tehelka sting operations. The essense of that article was mod wants mirages IAF wants Su30,but things were changed after the historic visit of Putin and finally MOD agrees with IAF demand, the SU30MKI.
I don't know what is true since all the forum members were telling IAF wants Mirages. But logically speaking MKI is the best option than Mirages. If IAF goes for Mirages after kargil war, we would have end up with a vintage aircraft in large numbers.

 

[Lolwa]

I was akid in 99, a report on IAF requirement was surfaced in local news paper. Even now most of the mainstream news papers doesn't have much clue on defense matters, it was pathetic 20 years ago.
Same news paper said one interesting article in 2001,which they wrote after Tehelka sting operations. The essense of that article was mod wants mirages IAF wants Su30,but things were changed after the historic visit of Putin and finally MOD agrees with IAF demand, the SU30MKI.
I don't know what is true since all the forum members were telling IAF wants Mirages. But logically speaking MKI is the best option than Mirages. If IAF goes for Mirages after kargil war, we would have end up with a vintage aircraft in large numbers.

Mirage is a more of a middle ground. IAF needed a medium weight fighter and mirage fit the bill. The problem was we couldn't get them in enough numbers due to the mki plan. Which was also a requirement. IAF believes in a similar formation like the USAF and RuAF with a Hi lo mix just a little different due to geographical difference. With a interceptor air defence class (MiG-21 now tejas in future). Interception is done by mig 31,j-11 and f15C for the RuAF,PLAAF and USAF respectively. a medium fighter bomber type multirole(fulfilled by various different fighters from mirage,mig 29 to the jaguar). And a heavy air superiority fighter (su30 mki). Because of the bungle up in medium weight category it has resulted in no standardisation and no streamlined approach. The rafale is pretty much the perfect replacement of all the three medium weight fighters. The problem is now it's too expensive to produce in India and the amount of investment might be an opportunity cost the government is not mentally ready to take.
Mirage only got hype post balakot.

 

[randomradio]

It's just that last two decades feel a bit lost, in the 80 and right through the 90's India was manufacturing Mig21; and assembling 23/27's and Jags.
In parallel, GoI was still able to procure Mig29's and M2K's, while in the last two decades from frontline perspective we have continued production of the MKI and not procured anything until the 36 Rafales.
Some out of the box thinking is necessary.

For a large air force like India, you have to either consider large volume orders or fresh orders on a per decade basis. In the 90s, we had no fresh orders, only repeats, with the exception of a minor order for 40 Su-30s followed by 10 more 2 years later. We had just one major fresh order in 2000 which was also large volume, and the next one was a minor fresh order for 40 LCAs followed by another only in 2016. Naturally such small orders are not sustainable for maintaining squadron strength. When it comes to old orders, we did see enough numbers, 37 Jaguars, 10 M2000s and then 82 MKIs between 1999 and 2009. Even then aircraft were leaving quicker than they were coming in.

The 82 MKIs were more out of desperation than anything else. Had M2K production come through, we would have avoided it.

The LCA delay was extremely damaging and we won't be recovering from it for at least 1 more decade, considering all the contracts we are talking about go through. That's 30 years gone.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

For a large air force like India, you have to either consider large volume orders or fresh orders on a per decade basis. In the 90s, we had no fresh orders, only repeats, with the exception of a minor order for 40 Su-30s followed by 10 more 2 years later. We had just one major fresh order in 2000 which was also large volume, and the next one was a minor fresh order for 40 LCAs followed by another only in 2016. Naturally such small orders are not sustainable for maintaining squadron strength. When it comes to old orders, we did see enough numbers, 37 Jaguars, 10 M2000s and then 82 MKIs between 1999 and 2009. Even then aircraft were leaving quicker than they were coming in.

The 82 MKIs were more out of desperation than anything else. Had M2K production come through, we would have avoided it.

The LCA delay was extremely damaging and we won't be recovering from it for at least 1 more decade, considering all the contracts we are talking about go through. That's 30 years gone.

Your air force is now built on an aircraft that you acquired, for lack of a better one, in the early 2000s, and the IAF's insistence on more Rafales is an attempt to return to the evolutionary path that should have been followed.

 

[randomradio]

I was akid in 99, a report on IAF requirement was surfaced in local news paper. Even now most of the mainstream news papers doesn't have much clue on defense matters, it was pathetic 20 years ago.
Same news paper said one interesting article in 2001,which they wrote after Tehelka sting operations. The essense of that article was mod wants mirages IAF wants Su30,but things were changed after the historic visit of Putin and finally MOD agrees with IAF demand, the SU30MKI.
I don't know what is true since all the forum members were telling IAF wants Mirages. But logically speaking MKI is the best option than Mirages. If IAF goes for Mirages after kargil war, we would have end up with a vintage aircraft in large numbers.

The NDA at that point went with Russia because nuclear tests were planned all the way since the early 90s. We knew for sure that the Russians won't sanction us. The same wasn't guaranteed with France. That's actually why so many deals were signed with Russia during NDA. So choosing the MKI over the M2000 was a no brainer. In return we got a UNSC vote in favour of us no matter what. Domestically, due to Russian export laws, they were the safest bet for GTG type deals.

It was only after French assurance of no sanctions post the nuke tests that France came back into contention. That's when MRCA, MMRCA, Scorpene, ALH engine etc came into the picture. So this gave us a second UNSC vote. Domestically, Europe is the worst for GTG deals, which is why M2000 wasn't simply bought straightaway, which would have been possible if France had followed Russian and American export equivalent systems back then.

Post the 123 agreement with the US, special relationships at high cost were no longer needed. Especially the fact that the US didn't like us saving the Russian aerospace, land and shipping industry left, right and center. The MKI deal, Vikramaditya, Talwar class, Akula, T-90 etc practically saved their defence industry. So allowing India to buy from any country without fear of sanctions became a primary agenda for the US.

As for the M2K, it was the best in its class and was a complement to the MKI. It's not a vintage aircraft, even today it's extremely potent and will remain so until the 2030s. Its current version is much more advanced than the MKI.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

The NDA at that point went with Russia because nuclear tests were planned all the way since the early 90s. We knew for sure that the Russians won't sanction us. The same wasn't guaranteed with France. That's actually why so many deals were signed with Russia during NDA. So choosing the MKI over the M2000 was a no brainer. In return we got a UNSC vote in favour of us no matter what. Domestically, due to Russian export laws, they were the safest bet for GTG type deals.

It was only after French assurance of no sanctions post the nuke tests that France came back into contention. That's when MRCA, MMRCA, Scorpene, ALH engine etc came into the picture. So this gave us a second UNSC vote. Domestically, Europe is the worst for GTG deals, which is why M2000 wasn't simply bought straightaway, which would have been possible if France had followed Russian and American export equivalent systems back then.

Post the 123 agreement with the US, special relationships at high cost were no longer needed. Especially the fact that the US didn't like us saving the Russian aerospace, land and shipping industry left, right and center. The MKI deal, Vikramaditya, Talwar class, Akula, T-90 etc practically saved their defence industry. So allowing India to buy from any country without fear of sanctions became a primary agenda for the US.

As for the M2K, it was the best in its class and was a complement to the MKI. It's not a vintage aircraft, even today it's extremely potent and will remain so until the 2030s. Its current version is much more advanced than the MKI.

Since MKI can fire BRAHMOS and SPICE , along with Indian made Stand off PGMs , it is good enough for us

We are going to rely on large scale missile salvos for knocking out enemy
SAMs and ADGES

By the way , when Jaguar uses a Elta 2032/ 2052 radar , why cannot we integrate SPICE bombs with Jaguars

 

[randomradio]

Your air force is now built on an aircraft that you acquired, for lack of a better one, in the early 2000s, and the IAF's insistence on more Rafales is an attempt to return to the evolutionary path that should have been followed.

Back then the IAF Chief had said that there was no plan B if MMRCA failed, and it continues to remain true.

Also, the IAF plan for maintaining technological superiority wasn't evolutionary, it was big bang. You forgot about FGFA. When both MMRCA and FGFA were cleared in 2007, India was projected to maintain high growth and become a $6T economy by 2020. We were supposed to have started receiving Rafales before 2015 and FGFA after 2020. In this plan, IAF was supposed to get back to full strength by 2027. Now the plan has changed towards an evolutionary approach.

Also, the focus has switched to indigenisation since the IAF has realised the only way to stay at the cutting edge is to build our own stuff. 'Cause by the time something is imported, it is no longer cutting edge. Whereas indigenous systems can be improved with every batch, like what's planned for LCA Mk1A.

 

[randomradio]

Since MKI can fire BRAHMOS and SPICE , along with Indian made Stand off PGMs , it is good enough for us

We are going to rely on large scale missile salvos for knocking out enemy
SAMs and ADGES

All that's 4th gen tactics and quite unreliable when it comes to SEAD/DEAD. Today we require next gen capabilities.

By the way , when Jaguar uses a Elta 2032/ 2052 radar , why cannot we integrate SPICE bombs with Jaguars

SPICE doesn't need Israeli radar or targeting pod. It can be integrated with any aircraft. Anyway, our Jaguars will get Indian versions of SPICE.