Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

Why does India maintain an N-triad at high cost to the exchequer? Because redundancy is key for deterrence. The Jag and M-2000 are well past their prime. There's no reason why the MKI can't take on the role when its contemporaries like the F-15 (based in the UK, Germany and elsewhere) are a key part of NATOs nuclear insurance against Russia. MKI certainly has the range, payload and endurance for such a mission+ lt's a two-seater. There are no treaties between us and our rivals that require us to disclose which IAF assets are nuke-capable so there's no point in making it public.

MKI does not have the EMC rating necessary. To get that, it will have to be upgraded from scratch, like MLU. But the IAF is not gonna give up the MLU jets to the SFC.

M2000 and Jag were recently upgraded, so will remain relevant for the next 15-20 years. As long as the jet has a modern EW suite, comm, and nav, it's enough. An SFC jet is not going to get into fights, so it doesn't need all those modern avionics. The main criterias to be met are reliability and survivability.

Furthermore, SFC can demand jets as necessary. And they won't just ask for 1 or 2 jets, they ask for multiple squadrons. Taking away 1 or 2 squadrons of their most important jet will drill holes in the IAF's operational capabilities. And more jets will have to be given up for escorting those jets. So the IAF is not dumb enough to give up their most advanced jet meant for air superiority.

The same with the USAF. You speak of the F-15, but it's the variant that matters more. Neither the F-15A/C nor the F-22 are nuke certified, only the F-15E, F-35A, and F-16 are. In fact, they were so focused on the air superiority mission that the F-15A/Cs made the quip "not a pound for air to ground" famous. The F-22 too has small IWBs because its strike capabilities were added due to the proliferation of the S-300, and some DEAD capability was necessary to fulfill its AS mission. So neither jet will be given up for the nuke mission, the same as the MKI and AMCA.

So majority Jags for now, with some M2000s. In the future, let's see. We will be rich enough for the SFC to have their own type. With our nuclear stockpiles increasing on a yearly basis, the SFC will eventually need 2+ squadrons of their own.

 

[Lolwa]

MKI does not have the EMC rating necessary. To get that, it will have to be upgraded from scratch, like MLU. But the IAF is not gonna give up the MLU jets to the SFC.

M2000 and Jag were recently upgraded, so will remain relevant for the next 15-20 years. As long as the jet has a modern EW suite, comm, and nav, it's enough. An SFC jet is not going to get into fights, so it doesn't need all those modern avionics. The main criterias to be met are reliability and survivability.

Furthermore, SFC can demand jets as necessary. And they won't just ask for 1 or 2 jets, they ask for multiple squadrons. Taking away 1 or 2 squadrons of their most important jet will drill holes in the IAF's operational capabilities. And more jets will have to be given up for escorting those jets. So the IAF is not dumb enough to give up their most advanced jet meant for air superiority.

The same with the USAF. You speak of the F-15, but it's the variant that matters more. Neither the F-15A/C nor the F-22 are nuke certified, only the F-15E, F-35A, and F-16 are. In fact, they were so focused on the air superiority mission that the F-15A/Cs made the quip "not a pound for air to ground" famous. The F-22 too has small IWBs because its strike capabilities were added due to the proliferation of the S-300, and some DEAD capability was necessary to fulfill its AS mission. So neither jet will be given up for the nuke mission, the same as the MKI and AMCA.

So majority Jags for now, with some M2000s. In the future, let's see. We will be rich enough for the SFC to have their own type. With our nuclear stockpiles increasing on a yearly basis, the SFC will eventually need 2+ squadrons of their own.

We could buy the f15EX and make them nuke certified.

 

[Speedster1]

M2000 and Jag were recently upgraded, so will remain relevant for the next 15-20 years. As long as the jet has a modern EW suite, comm, and nav, it's enough

We've been scouring the int'l market (Greece, France) for spares for both these jets. For the M2000, OEM support will dry up sooner than later. Ditto for the Jag. We're the only operator worldwide since Oman junked theirs.
The MKI, for all its niggles, is still in production and could be modified for n-strike with minimum fuss, perhaps in-house by the IAFs own BRDs.

Furthermore, SFC can demand jets as necessary. And they won't just ask for 1 or 2 jets, they ask for multiple squadrons

We'd have more MKIs to spare than any other jet for the foreseeable future.

. Neither the F-15A/C nor the F-22 are nuke certified, only the F-15E, F-35A, and F-16 are

That's the bulk of the USAF tactical ac inventory.

And more jets will have to be given up for escorting those jets

There apparently is an EW/Growlerski variant of the MKI/SM2 under dev. If we eventually end up developing an AL-HCM based delivery system, then the MKI would likely be the only other ac in the inventory capable of hauling it with enough loiter time/time on station.

Rafale will probably sweep for enemy ac and make way for the MKI to release its payload.

 

[LX1111]

Russian ships do not have advanced defenses against modern cruise missiles.

India identified the same thing in the 90s. We lacked the ability to defeat the Harpoon, that's why we bought the Israeli Barak 1 for many of our ships, followed by Barak 8.

Currently, the Russians have 3 frigates with Shtil-1, which is decent against Harpoon class missiles. And only 3 other frigates with Redut, which can defeat modern missiles. The rest of their fleet is ancient.

Their destroyers have Tor class systems, and their cruisers are the same as the Chinese, old, heavy semi-active missiles, plus no AESA radar. Modern long range SAMs weigh between 150-250 kg, or even 450 kg with booster, and come with IIR or active seekers, but Russian and Chinese missiles on their ships weigh 1-2 tons. These missiles are not sufficient for air defense. At least the Russians are modernizing faster than the Chinese with Shtil-1 and Redut.

I think you should look at what happened to the Americans in the Red Sea, the main way to intercept the C802 missile was not the SM-2 missile, but the FA18 carrying AIM120 to intercept it, the same for the Russians, they could have intercepted the Neptune missile with the SU30SM carrying R77, but they did not do it
The equipment of the cruiser Moscow is indeed backward, but it is not the reason for failure, two AK630 close defense guns against subsonic sea grazing targets intercepting probability is 70%, S300F missile although the lowest launch height is 25m, higher than the Neptune missile 5-10m, but still can use its large warhead to destroy the target. All in all, Moscow's problem was not old weapons and radars, but rigid tactics and a lack of basic training and discipline among its personnel

Their destroyers have Tor class systems, and their cruisers are the same as the Chinese, old, heavy semi-active missiles, plus no AESA radar. Modern long range SAMs weigh between 150-250 kg, or even 450 kg with booster, and come with IIR or active seekers, but Russian and Chinese missiles on their ships weigh 1-2 tons. These missiles are not sufficient for air defense. At least the Russians are modernizing faster than the Chinese with Shtil-1 and Redut

None of the US Navy's Aegis destroyers have AESA radars, and the SM-2 is still a semi-active radar missile, but they are still more advanced than all Indian destroyers and have been tested in the Red Sea
As for India, are you sure you want to use a missile with a range of less than 80 km as your main air defense frigate? Not to mention the fact that the Barak-1 is a vertical-launch terminal defense system, I don't think it has enough reaction time to deal with Pakistan's massive YJ-12 or YJ-18

 

[LX1111]

If you're expecting us to believe that China's come up with an answer as you put it to hypersonic missiles over the US & the west , it's not happening . Maybe 3-4 decades later you'd be at the cutting edge of defence initiating state of the art projects , if CCP lasts that long

You are right
because the US does not currently have hypersonic missiles in service, so the HQ19 cannot shoot them down

Are you still using Baidu translate in spite of me telling you to use Google translate especially since you're using a VPN to escape the firewall in Zhongguo to log in here ?

Let me inform you one of these days WW-3 will be ignited only coz of a miscommunication courtesy Baidu (mis) translate

You should Google what you're saying. Of all the things Google shows, only Brahmos 2 is credible

 

[_Anonymous_]

You are right
because the US does not currently have hypersonic missiles in service, so the HQ19 cannot shoot them down

You'd be going up against the US very soon in Taiwan . Should be a good time to find out their capabilities as well as how well do your systems work.

You should Google what you're saying. Of all the things Google shows, only Brahmos 2 is credible

I've remarked plenty of times on the phenomenon of going up against a superior breed of Wumaos before the pandemic noting how the current breed of Wumaos lack the class & intelligence of their predecessors wondering if the MSS had now started recruiting Gaokao fail candidates for their compensation remains the same as 2 decades ago viz 50 cents per post .

Google Search

There are multiple threads on this very forum on the above topic as well as the fact that there isn't going to be a Brahmos -2.

 

[randomradio]

Frankly, the RFNs goose is well and truly cooked. The US-led sanctions have disrupted the supply of COTS Western components that went into many of their radars, including the Redut's AESA FCR.
Until they can feild local equivalents, their fleet is vulnerable to air/missile attack.

As long as something is COTS, they will get it. DeepSeek is powered by banned Nvidia processors for example.

 

[randomradio]

We've been scouring the int'l market (Greece, France) for spares for both these jets. For the M2000, OEM support will dry up sooner than later. Ditto for the Jag. We're the only operator worldwide since Oman junked theirs.
The MKI, for all its niggles, is still in production and could be modified for n-strike with minimum fuss, perhaps in-house by the IAFs own BRDs.

We do not need OEM support for Jaguar. And M2000 will be operable for quite some time. Hell, PAF use Mirage III/V for nukes even today.

MKI needs a lot of work, so it won't be done outside the MLU. They will have to introduce a STD-1760 Class I standard, which requires significant rebuild. It requires certification from Russia too or they can withdraw support. They have become quite a bit paranoid ever since we decided to modify the MKI on our own for Brahmos, which means they will involve themselves in it.

We'd have more MKIs to spare than any other jet for the foreseeable future.

Sure. But that's not the point. The MKIs would have been fine had we not been at 31 squadrons, regardless of the rebuild required.

The IAF would have used MRCA or MMRCA instead, had either won. But it would still have been too early to replace the Jag.

That's the bulk of the USAF tactical ac inventory.

You don't touch the primary ASF.

There apparently is an EW/Growlerski variant of the MKI/SM2 under dev. If we eventually end up developing an AL-HCM based delivery system, then the MKI would likely be the only other ac in the inventory capable of hauling it with enough loiter time/time on station.

I'm not very sure about it. I've only seen such reports in the media, but it seems to be a standard EW suite for all MKIs. And I don't get the point of this for SFC.

Rafale will probably sweep for enemy ac and make way for the MKI to release its payload.

Okay, but that means giving up even Rafales for the nuke mission. The F3R is unlikely to be used for it, outside of giving top cover, which is generally given to all missions. LCA Mk1A provides escort.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I love this logic @PAF using antiquated Mirage -III & Mirage -V for purported N strike meaning we should respect their capabilities & fight with one arm & leg tied behind our back too.

I'm never quitting Strat Front , not until Paddy , RST & Sweetie stop making appearances out here.

 

[randomradio]

I think you should look at what happened to the Americans in the Red Sea, the main way to intercept the C802 missile was not the SM-2 missile, but the FA18 carrying AIM120 to intercept it, the same for the Russians, they could have intercepted the Neptune missile with the SU30SM carrying R77, but they did not do it
The equipment of the cruiser Moscow is indeed backward, but it is not the reason for failure, two AK630 close defense guns against subsonic sea grazing targets intercepting probability is 70%, S300F missile although the lowest launch height is 25m, higher than the Neptune missile 5-10m, but still can use its large warhead to destroy the target. All in all, Moscow's problem was not old weapons and radars, but rigid tactics and a lack of basic training and discipline among its personnel

You can't compare the air traffic in the Red Sea to a full-scale warzone. Fighters can't chase everything they see.

I agree with the training bit, but the system itself is too old, making it harder to operate, which in turn would require more training. Crew fatigue could also be a factor.

If the ship's defenses were not active, that's a different story.

 

[LX1111]

You'd be going up against the US very soon in Taiwan . Should be a good time to find out their capabilities as well as how well do your systems work.

I've remarked plenty of times on the phenomenon of going up against a superior breed of Wumaos before the pandemic noting how the current breed of Wumaos lack the class & intelligence of their predecessors wondering if the MSS had now started recruiting Gaokao fail candidates for their compensation remains the same as 2 decades ago viz 50 cents per post .

Google Search

There are multiple threads on this very forum on the above topic as well as the fact that there isn't going to be a Brahmos -2.

I really haven't been following this news, my impression of Indian hypersonic weapons is from this missile

That plate up there is so impressive, it's like an Indian pancake

But as an aside, the recruitment requirements of the Ministry of State Security are very high, requiring graduates from China's top 32 universities to be Communist Party members and politically reliable, of course, some universities directly train technical talents for the Ministry of State Security.

北京电子科技学院 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书

zh.m.wikipedia.org

Unfortunately, my master's degree in mechanics didn't come from one of the top schools

 

[Ashwin]

We could buy the f15EX and make them nuke certified.

Lolwa using every chance to pitch F-15EX

 

[Speedster1]

We do not need OEM support for Jaguar. And M2000 will be operable for quite some time. Hell, PAF use Mirage III/V for nukes even today.

The IAF would have used MRCA or MMRCA instead, had either won. But it would still have been too early to replace the Jag.

I don't think we can flog the Jag much longer. Iirc, the IAF inducted it in 1975. If the re‐engine prog with Honeywell F125 had gone through, things would've been different. The only saving grace is that this is a twin-engine ac or the crash rate would've been high.

Okay, but that means giving up even Rafales for the nuke mission

It takes 7-10 years to certify an ac for n-delivery. This is what prompted Germany to opt for the F-35 instead of the EF-2000 for the NATO deterrent mission.

The Rafales have been in service for all of 4 years. Too early to develop tactics, even if the comms, databus and other hardware were in place.

We'd need at least 2 n-certified ac types at any given time. With the Jag in its sunset years, only the MKI fits the bill, imo.

 

[randomradio]

In a war with NATO, Russia will not face F16s, but thousands of F35s and B21s, and then it will be over

Sure. No matter what NATO attacks Russia with, the Russians can target NATO systems, unlike in Ukraine, where the Russians have to stay quiet and allow NATO assets to surveil without challenge.

 

[randomradio]

I don't think we can flog the Jag much longer. Iirc, the IAF inducted it in 1975. If the re‐engine prog with Honeywell F125 had gone through, things would've been different. The only saving grace is that this is a twin-engine ac or the crash rate would've been high.

It was recently upgraded, we can flog it for 15 more years.

A new engine is necessary for conventional ops, not nukes. For a nuke mission its main payload is just 1 nuke, which barely weighs anything.

The Mirage V is a better jet for this mission, but the Jag is more than acceptable today. Jag is a better jet in the conventional realm.

It takes 7-10 years to certify an ac for n-delivery. This is what prompted Germany to opt for the F-35 instead of the EF-2000 for the NATO deterrent mission.

The Rafales have been in service for all of 4 years. Too early to develop tactics, even if the comms, databus and other hardware were in place.

We'd need at least 2 n-certified ac types at any given time. With the Jag in its sunset years, only the MKI fits the bill, imo.

You are forgetting about LCA Mk2. And M2000 will remain in operation until 2045 at least.

As for MKI, even if the IAF want it to carry nukes today, it cannot. It has to be MLU'd, the same as Typhoon. And the IAF is only MLUing 4 squadrons and they are not retarded enough to hand those over to the SFC's mission.