Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

you seem to be giving J-20C far better capabilities than what it posses. do you think they have superior tech compared to even French?

The J-20C's external capabilities are better, which is why the advantage. If it has an RCS of a sparrow and the engine allows for faster climb, acceleration and supercruise speed than the Rafale, then it doesn't really need to have better avionics than the Rafale F3R.

We can assume that all countries have practically reached the peak of GaAs by now. So a larger 900mm radar in the J-20 will easily outclass the Rafale's 600mm radar. And it can use its passive stealth capabilities to close in without alerting the Rafale. None of Rafale's actual advantages can be put to use until the point a missile is fired towards it. So even if the Rafale's got superior avionics, it may still have to deal with the J-20 having the first look, first shot advantage.

The last time the Rafale received a major hardware update was in 2012-13. The new one will come in by 2024. I won't be surprised if the Chinese are sitting between these two avionics configurations with the J-20B/C.

It has an F-35 style EODAS.

Multiple sensors utilising smart skins.

It's basically like the F-22, but with F-35 style avionics.

Let's also not forget that China's latest BVR missile comes with an AESA seeker and WVR missile comes with an IIR seeker. The most prudent approach would be to assume the J-20C's avionics will at least match the Rafale F3R's avionics. I believe it exceeds it at least in basic characteristics, like larger sensors, more onboard electrical power, more modern design etc.

The main concern for the Rafale F3R is TRAGEDAC (passive tracking), INCAS (datalink) and DEDIRA (AC) are yet to be implemented or not yet implemented fully. And by the time it's implemented and we get the first jet, we may be looking at a whole horde of fully operational J-20Cs across the border.

Furthermore, the Chinese have already started the development of a J-20 successor. They want to make it available around the same time the NGAD becomes operational.

 

[Bon Plan]

We can assume that all countries have practically reached the peak of GaAs by now.

When you see how late are the chinese on engine, we can have a doubt about their ability to built a master class AESA radar.
To made a iphone clone is one thing (quite easy because mainly built on the chinese soil), to fine tune electronic counter measures, seekers, radars (and engines ! ) another.

Let's also not forget that China's latest BVR missile comes with an AESA seeker

maybe. or not. You are free to believe in their propaganda.

 

[zinswinsin]

Our AMCA will not see in another 10-15 years for sure. Then how relevant will be AMCA after 15 years? Just as irrelevant like current LCA Mk1?

Least it's aligned with Europe timing.

 

[randomradio]

When you see how late are the chinese on engine, we can have a doubt about their ability to built a master class AESA radar.
To made a iphone clone is one thing (quite easy because mainly built on the chinese soil), to fine tune electronic counter measures, seekers, radars (and engines ! ) another.

We can't underestimate their electronics industry. The only breakthrough left for them to make now is only in the production of civilian semiconductors, which is largely irrelevant to the military. Other than that, they have largely caught up with the west. Look at their advances in 5G tech. It's right up there with the best.

maybe. or not. You are free to believe in their propaganda.

I don't think that's propaganda, it's accepted. We saw how quickly the Americans started the AIM-260 program once the PL-15 entered operations.

 

[randomradio]

Least it's aligned with Europe timing.

The AMCA's airframe design is a bit more conventional compared to what the FCAS and Tempest will be. But there's a pretty good chance we will follow up with another design after AMCA because the MKI will need replacement. AMCA is mainly intended to replace the Jaguars.

 

[randomradio]

There was some really good info in Corporal Frisk's blog comments section today. It seems obvious that Finland and Switzerland have actually some very different needs. Therefore it is not possible to deduce the answer to HX from Switzerland's choice.

By the way the population of Switzerland is almost twice as big as Finland's but the area of Finland is eight times as big. But no mountains. These facts must also affect the choice.

I wonder if Finland is considering hypersonic weapons for the future. If so, then Rafale would be in a better position than F-35 regarding this detail.

Considering the result of the Swiss tender, Finland is better off with the F-35. The 40% points difference is too much.

While the F4.2 is good and everything, it won't be able to compete with the Su-57 in the long term. The Rafale is good enough only for the next 10 years.

If you want su57,stop spending money on super sukhoi and directly induct su57. Personal opinion.

MLU was already delayed once for MMRCA. We can't afford to delay it once again. The MLU program is already five years late.

 

[zinswinsin]

Considering the result of the Swiss tender, Finland is better off with the F-35. The 40% points difference is too much.

While the F4.2 is good and everything, it won't be able to compete with the Su-57 in the long term. The Rafale is good enough only for the next 10 years.


MLU was already delayed once for MMRCA. We can't afford to delay it once again. The MLU program is already five years late.

Do you have a source on the 40% for the technical evaluation?

 

[randomradio]

Do you have a source on the 40% for the technical evaluation?

Switzerland Chooses F-35 As Its Next Fighter Jet

The Swiss say the Joint Strike Fighter emerged as the most capable and cheapest option after a competitive evaluation.

www.thedrive.com

“With 336 points, [the F-35A] showed the highest overall benefit and was the clear winner with a lead of 95 points or more over the other candidates,” the council’s report stated, although it didn’t provide points for the other fighters in the competition.

That's 40%.

This is assuming the Rafale is at second place, which it likely is.

 

[zinswinsin]

Switzerland Chooses F-35 As Its Next Fighter Jet

The Swiss say the Joint Strike Fighter emerged as the most capable and cheapest option after a competitive evaluation.

www.thedrive.com

“With 336 points, [the F-35A] showed the highest overall benefit and was the clear winner with a lead of 95 points or more over the other candidates,” the council’s report stated, although it didn’t provide points for the other fighters in the competition.

That's 40%.

This is assuming the Rafale is at second place, which it likely is.

yeah but that's with cost, offsets and cooperation + technical. I would like to know the scores just for the technical. sigh maybe with the finland one we'll get some leaks.

 

[randomradio]

yeah but that's with cost, offsets and cooperation + technical. I would like to know the scores just for the technical. sigh maybe with the finland one we'll get some leaks.

True. It's the overall score. I don't think we will get that lucky with Finland, they are much more serious about secrecy. Our best hope is when the Swiss deal comes up for another potential vote, some more information may come out to help protect the F-35.

 

[Sathya]

Sir , How are you able to assess J 20 and Chinese Engines , I mean while sitting in India

Secondly with S 400 coming , We can simply rule out F 35

F35 if it's done, will be only for Navy.
With TEDBF program having sufficient time, I doubt we ll proceed towards F35.

 

[Sathya]

If you want su57,stop spending money on super sukhoi and directly induct su57. Personal opinion.

Logically we need to upgrade all squads in time bound manner, incrementally replacing with indigenous content.

With so much delays.. And our speed..
Don't know when we ll sign the deal..
If we take 2 years to sign..
3 years for initial batch to be started with upgrade ..
Going by mirage 2000 upgrade program..
Even though it's massive program, we can safely assume 2 years delay minimum.

Seven years before first Super sukhoi flies..
Inducted in 1996 upgraded in 2026, that's 30 years..


I ll partly agree with you, we should replace older su30 squads with Su 57 and use it's avionics and engine for the remaining Su 30 upgrade.

@randomradio

 

[Sathya]

I just hope Modi signs another batch of Rafale at half the price of first tranche before the end of his second term.

 

[randomradio]

Logically we need to upgrade all squads in time bound manner, incrementally replacing with indigenous content.

With so much delays.. And our speed..
Don't know when we ll sign the deal..
If we take 2 years to sign..
3 years for initial batch to be started with upgrade ..
Going by mirage 2000 upgrade program..
Even though it's massive program, we can safely assume 2 years delay minimum.

The MLU contract is set to be signed in 2022.

The goal is to make its avionics as indigenous as possible. So even Uttam is being considered, although I'm betting a Russian option will be chosen.

Anyway, due to the Su-30SM2 program, I don't think we will face a lot of issues in getting the upgrade done.

Seven years before first Super sukhoi flies..

Inducted in 1996 upgraded in 2026, that's 30 years..

2002 actually. The ones inducted in 1996 to 2000 were sent back to Russia.

I ll partly agree with you, we should replace older su30 squads with Su 57 and use it's avionics and engine for the remaining Su 30 upgrade.

@randomradio

That option is largely gone due to a mix of finances and politics. All we need for now is 2 squadrons of a proper stealth jet. We don't need more than that.

I just hope Modi signs another batch of Rafale at half the price of first tranche before the end of his second term.

Unlikely to happen considering the IAF wants to launch MRFA in 2022.

With LCA Mk1A eating up quite a bit of IAF's funding, I think the only thing happening this term would be the two deals for 21 Mig-29s and 12 MKIs, apart from the MLU program. Any Rafale order before March 2024 will have to come from outside the IAF's budget.

 

[Saaho]

It's simple really. I trust some of the Chinese sources and also their capability to create something that's expected to match what the US did back in the early 2000s all the way today.

Due to the size of our geography, supercruise is a very important capability. And if the Chinese are saying the new engine will be capable of supercruise, then it's enough to believe them.

Can you cite your trusted sources? If they are NOT secret that is.

Due to the size of our geography, supercruise is a very important capability. And if the Chinese are saying the new engine will be capable of supercruise, then it's enough to believe them.

When you say "Chinese are saying", who specifically are you quoting?

 

[randomradio]

Can you cite your trusted sources? If they are NOT secret that is.


When you say "Chinese are saying", who specifically are you quoting?

The Chinese release information through either CCTV or through unofficial online bloggers on Chinese forums. And to foreign analysts during defence shows. The other way is to release information anonymously through their newspapers. Since Chinese media is censored, these anonymous releases are not like what happens in India, these are actual bits of information that the Chinese have decided the world should know.

 

[randomradio]

How China is fast catching up with the West in the race for air-to-air missile superiority

Recent AAM advancements in China, elevating it as a near peer competitor to the Western and Russian philosophies, has unlocked a new race to own the longest reach in the skies.

theprint.in

The LETRI PiLi-15/PL-15 is the most advanced AAM deployed by the PLAAF in recent years.

It is powered by a dual pulse rocket motor, giving it an estimated range of 200 km with a large NEZ. It is equipped with a two-way datalink for dynamic re-targetting in air. The active seeker uses an AESA aperture developed by No. 607 institute, which has a narrow target acquisition beam. The AESA seeker also gives robust ECCM capability. The missile was tested in 2015 and now equips the J-10C and the J-16s, as well as the limited number of J-20s in service.

It entered service way back in 2016.

 

[Saaho]

The Chinese release information through either CCTV or through unofficial online bloggers on Chinese forums. And to foreign analysts during defence shows. The other way is to release information anonymously through their newspapers. Since Chinese media is censored, these anonymous releases are not like what happens in India, these are actual bits of information that the Chinese have decided the world should know.

I am not asking about the process Chinese follow. All I asked was specific sources that you trust. You know, sources where you read the information that you just narrated about J20 in that post. I am sure there must be some.

 

[randomradio]

I am not asking about the process Chinese follow. All I asked was specific sources that you trust. You know, sources where you read the information that you just narrated about J20 in that post. I am sure there must be some.

When it comes to Chinese stuff, you won't find a single link explaining everything. You will have to look for such snippets like I posted above. It requires quite a bit of research and memory.

The thing about Chinese stuff is simple, discuss with people who know this stuff or don't discuss with anyone at all. Which is why I had linked only vstol.

 

[Saaho]

When it comes to Chinese stuff, you won't find a single link explaining everything. You will have to look for such snippets like I posted above. It requires quite a bit of research and memory.

The thing about Chinese stuff is simple, discuss with people who know this stuff or don't discuss with anyone at all. Which is why I had linked only vstol.

Okay, if there are 1000 places, sure as hell you can link them? Cann't you?

I mean one point in "research" is to cite your sources. Even wikipedia has habit of saying "source needed".