Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[xxxxx]

The radar wave emitted by the airframe creates a radar signature, active cancellation removes that signature. In some cases, the signature can be entirely removed, or the signature is so small that it's considered to be dust, water vapour etc, ie clutter, and is rejected.

This process is called destructive interference.

Then comes the problem,
How can you use a few sensors to interferometrically process all the radar waves reflected by the fighter jet

India has been looking for new options since early 2010s. For the MKI, the choice was between Derby ER and Meteor. Now Indian options have come up. Pakistan had no options due to the unofficial arms embargo from the West, so they seem to have been waiting for China to give them some.

Anyway, India did not have long range options until 2017. Europe denied Meteor for Russian jets while Derby ER was still in development until 2017. But the MoD and IAF have been slow in making their choice. It's just bad luck for us that we didn't enter the fight with Derby ER or Meteor (our main preference).

In general, India got the Meteor, the question is what to do with the SU30MKI. Derby ER, Israel claims a maximum range of 100KM, Astra should be around 80KM,

The first airborne AESA for fighters is APG-63(V)2, introduced in 2000. Followed by Japan'sIn general, India got the Meteor, the question is what to do with the SU30MKI. Derby ER, Israel claims a maximum range of 100KM, Astra should be around 80KM,in 2002 for the F-2, followed by UAE's F-16 B60 with APG-80 in 2004. Then came the F-22's APG-77 in 2005

I did remember wrong,

Incorrect. Stealth is simple arithmetic. System design is not.

We disagree on some basic facts

I never said anything about maximum range. Everything else is defined by tactics. It has nothing to do with RC

There is a paper in China that did a computer simulation of the Meteor missile and got the data I'm talking about

Yes, we are introducing RCS reduction in later blocks. We are doing what the French accomplished in the 80s. It doesn't change the fact that our jets are behind the Rafale by a significant margin.

Right. After all, in the 1980s, China had just had enough food, and the Air Force had just begun to develop the J8II.

Look at TEDBF, it incorporates all the main features of Rafale and refines it further. It's obviously gonna have a much lower frontal RCS than Rafale

in My Humble Opinion
India made the prototype first and we will talk about it later. There are too many PPTs in India.

But what it means is the J-10 is way behind the Rafale's design

I don't know how you came to this conclusion, only on the body platform, I can't see any essential difference between the Rafale fighter and the su27, F16, F15,
If we talk about stealth design, I don't think the stealth design used by Rafale can make a difference with them. I personally think that the frontal RCS of Rafale is about 1-3
as the first fourth-generation aircraft in China, the J10 has many original regrets, such as too large frontal projection, insufficient multi-purpose capability, and slightly lower range. Of course, these have been improved on the J10C.
Here I share an experience of General Wang hai, the father of the modernization of the Chinese Air Force
When the Rafale and Typhoon fighter jets were just commissioned, many Western media said they were the 3.99-generation fighter jets second only to the F22. Many people wanted to follow the example of Europe to develop China's 3.99-generation fighter jets.
General Wang hai strongly opposed, "The so-called 3.99-generation fighter is actually a rhetoric that Britain and France lag behind the US and the Soviet Union's third-generation fighters. What we need is a fourth-generation fighter similar to the US ATF plan." General Wang Haihai presided over the initial development of the J20.
So far, China has benefited a lot from this decision.

 

[john0496]

Then comes the problem,
How can you use a few sensors to interferometrically process all the radar waves reflected by the fighter jet

The shape of the Rafale is made so that waves reflected by the airfraime bounces and are concentred on some spots.
This is right on those spots that you can find SPECTRA emitters .

 

[xxxxx]

The shape of the Rafale is made so that waves reflected by the airfraime bounces and are concentred on some spots.

I don't know that there is such advanced technology on earth. Is it bad to have this ability to design a fifth-generation machine?

 

[john0496]

This is not new. This was the LO requirement that came after the first Rafale A prototype.
All the the airframe was reworked toward this achievement.
And the 30% of the rafale program allocated to SPECTRA was not given to have a good looking aircraft

 

[randomradio]

Then comes the problem,
How can you use a few sensors to interferometrically process all the radar waves reflected by the fighter jet

Using correlators. Like it's done in GPS satellites. Can you even imagine how many unique pings such satellites get every second?

In general, India got the Meteor, the question is what to do with the SU30MKI. Derby ER, Israel claims a maximum range of 100KM, Astra should be around 80KM,

At what altitude?

Israel claims 100Km, but they also claim Derby ER's range is 80% that of Meteor. And you have underestimated Meteor's range too.

in My Humble Opinion
India made the prototype first and we will talk about it later. There are too many PPTs in India.

As long as it's an active program, it will deliver something.

I don't know how you came to this conclusion, only on the body platform, I can't see any essential difference between the Rafale fighter and the su27, F16, F15,
If we talk about stealth design, I don't think the stealth design used by Rafale can make a difference with them. I personally think that the frontal RCS of Rafale is about 1-3

You are free to believe that, but it would be wrong. LCA Mk1's RCS is well below 1m2. We know for a fact the M2000's RCS is 0.8m2. And we also know for a fact the F-16C/D's RCS is 1.2m2.

Based on the Korean infographic:

They call RCS below 1m2 as "Reduced Observable". So SH, Typhoon, Rafale and B-1B have been accorded that status and it's publicly known that their RCS is below 1m2. 1m2 = 0dBsm, hence "reduced observable". On the left side it says "Stealth (-dBsm)", so the minus sign indicates below 0dBsm.

Wouldn't you say the Koreans know what they are talking about?

Here I share an experience of General Wang hai, the father of the modernization of the Chinese Air Force
When the Rafale and Typhoon fighter jets were just commissioned, many Western media said they were the 3.99-generation fighter jets second only to the F22. Many people wanted to follow the example of Europe to develop China's 3.99-generation fighter jets.
General Wang hai strongly opposed, "The so-called 3.99-generation fighter is actually a rhetoric that Britain and France lag behind the US and the Soviet Union's third-generation fighters. What we need is a fourth-generation fighter similar to the US ATF plan." General Wang Haihai presided over the initial development of the J20.
So far, China has benefited a lot from this decision.

He's a smart chap for having figured out Western propaganda. He is right too. And Rafale and Typhoon do not have passive stealth like 5th gen, but due to their negative dBsm RCS, they can electronically reduce their RCS further with active cancellation. 5th gen aircraft will benefit even more with active cancellation, so shaping and RAM/RAS will be key metrics for next gen, along with active stealth.

But you can imagine PLAAF's situation. If the Rafale's active stealth works, it should or they wouldn't have talked about it publicly, then by 2030, the J-20 will have to compete directly with a jet that has a similar RCS as itself across the Himalayas. And it won't have the same troubleshooting issues that new jets typically have. If you're assuming J-20 will give PLAAF an advantage over the IAF, you're gonna be wrong. You should always assume that your enemy knows what they are doing, especially when they have access to Western technologies.

I don't know that there is such advanced technology on earth. Is it bad to have this ability to design a fifth-generation machine?

It makes use of the concept of creeping waves, the same technique is used in passive stealth with curved surfaces, not flat surfaces like the F-117.

Creeping wave - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Optimist]

I have a question, how do you eliminate the radar wave emitted by the airframe, you can deceive it by analyzing the Chinese radar, but the radar wave reflected by the airframe is like a bonfire in the dark night telling me where you are

There is a joke in China that after the 2019 air war, both Pakistan and India are looking for longer range missiles, as if range is everything

Clearly this is not a scientific method of calculation
We have taken your second photo as an example
You can see the huge boundary layer divider between the intake and the body, it's an obvious cavity, you can think of it as a giant corner reflector with a non-negligible effect on the RCS
third picture
You can see a lot of air intakes, this is the natural Lumbo lens, for the Rafale, it's like wearing shiny clothes in the dark

First of all, stealth is systematic engineering, not simple arithmetic. As I said before, a small bulge on the fuselage and the interaction of the fuselage can seriously damage the stealth effect of the aircraft

The first airborne AESA of mankind should be the APG77 on the F22. It is already after 2010 that Europe has entered the AESA era.

Not only fighter jets can find Rafale fighters, ground radar, early warning aircraft can also find him,
The small RCS value of the missile has little effect, and it is also wrong. A large number of irregular scattering will form between the missile and the body, and the RCS value they generate is even larger than that of the aircraft itself.
And the premise of your assumption is that the gust can fire all missiles at the maximum range of the missile, but the fact is that the fighter will launch a missile at the maximum range of the missile, forcing the enemy to lower the altitude, get yourself a better position, and then Missile launch in no-escape zone
Generally speaking, the maximum range of the Meteor missile is 180KM, and the no-escape zone is about 80KM.

The J10C has also adopted a number of measures to reduce the RCS value, such as the use of DSI intake ports,
Bury a large number of protruding air inlets to make the body more smooth,
At the same time use metal coating on the cockpit to reduce RCS

Stay if you are having fun, but don't do too much to prove your point. it's a waste of time. They are saying the rafale is better than the F-35, there is no room to move. You aren't going to talk sense into them. they will post the same nonsense on the next page. The frogs know it's BS, but they still tell the lies. This indian, rafale fanboy may still believe it. The Indian air force knows the truth, and any other country that buys it.

 

[_Anonymous_]

View attachment 22747

Yup. Apparently it is air cooled because of the GaN TRMs .

 

[Bon Plan]

I personally think that the frontal RCS of Rafale is about 1-3

Your personnal advise is near zero on this field.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Yup. Apparently it is air cooled because of the GaN TRMs .

yes it is easier because the T/R module efficiency in radiated power is better which reduces the heat generated. But if you already have a cooling system installed that is able to absorb the heat from GaS then you can increase the power when you switch to GaN.

 

[_Anonymous_]

This indian, rafale fanboy may still believe it. The Indian air force knows the truth, and any other country that buys it.

The IAF isn't squaring upto the Lightnings ,the PLAAF is . For us , the points of concern are what can the PAF & PLAAF throw at us either singularly or in tandem. It's only after a deep consideration of these & other issues involved that the IAF made a selection & the security managers of our country affirmed it .

Anything else is mere commentary & space fillers.

 

[_Anonymous_]

yes it is easier because the T/R module efficiency in radiated power is better which reduces the heat generated. But if you already have a cooling system installed that is able to absorb the heat from GaS then you can increase the power when you switch to GaN.

I assume the liquid cooled system for GaN then would still be more efficient than the air cooled system . The only trade off is the amount of space the former occupies as compared to the latter .

 

[Optimist]

Clean I'll put rafale within the range of the other 4.5 gen and add the SU-57 and the late F-16 to that list. None of them are under .5m and most around 1m clean. A 10 times difference is significant, order of magnitude. Gripen had a fabricated document that has done the rounds for years with 0.1m. Rafale fanboys just went 'me too'.

The F-15ex may be a surprise. Boeing did RCS testing for the silent eagle. Some of that would have been transferred. Boeing's Fan blockers were on the X-36 and super hornet. I see no reason why they didn't go on the F-15ex. They have the tech and there is also RAM of course.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I assume the liquid cooled system for GaN then would still be more efficient than the air cooled system . The only trade off is the amount of space the former occupies as compared to the latter .

5 cm against 30 cm for Gan ?

Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

What about the canrard, IRSTs, also the dimension. From the front, the biggest reflectors are the inlets followed by the cockpit. As long as those two are taken care of, the RCS will be very small. Wings are the third biggest. Canards spoil RCS only in some flight regimes, not all the time...

www.strategicfront.org

 

[_Anonymous_]

5 cm against 30 cm for Gan ?

Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

What about the canrard, IRSTs, also the dimension. From the front, the biggest reflectors are the inlets followed by the cockpit. As long as those two are taken care of, the RCS will be very small. Wings are the third biggest. Canards spoil RCS only in some flight regimes, not all the time...

www.strategicfront.org

I wasn't referring to the entire system only the cooling component of it - liquid cooled vs air cooled mechanism per se.

 

[randomradio]

Stay if you are having fun, but don't do too much to prove your point. it's a waste of time. They are saying the rafale is better than the F-35, there is no room to move. You aren't going to talk sense into them. they will post the same nonsense on the next page. The frogs know it's BS, but they still tell the lies. This indian, rafale fanboy may still believe it. The Indian air force knows the truth, and any other country that buys it.

I like how you have nothing to add to a discussion, all you do is insult people who don't agree with you.

You remind me of all these obese kill-all-men type banshees you see on TV.

Clean I'll put rafale within the range of the other 4.5 gen and add the SU-57 and the late F-16 to that list. None of them are under .5m and most around 1m clean. A 10 times difference is significant, order of magnitude. Gripen had a fabricated document that has done the rounds for years with 0.1m. Rafale fanboys just went 'me too'.

The F-15ex may be a surprise. Boeing did RCS testing for the silent eagle. Some of that would have been transferred. Boeing's Fan blockers were on the X-36 and super hornet. I see no reason why they didn't go on the F-15ex. They have the tech and there is also RAM of course.

What is dBsm?

 

[xxxxx]

Stay if you are having fun, but don't do too much to prove your point. it's a waste of time. They are saying the rafale is better than the F-35, there is no room to move. You aren't going to talk sense into them. they will post the same nonsense on the next page. The frogs know it's BS, but they still tell the lies. This indian, rafale fanboy may still believe it. The Indian air force knows the truth, and any other country that buys it.

In fact, I don't want to continue the discussion. They treat the gust like a god.
For example, they say active stealth,
I don't see it as reliable as the original Russian plasma stealth.
In this way, the fourth-generation aircraft can achieve the stealth of the fifth-generation aircraft by relying on electronic equipment, so China, the United States and Russia have done useless work for decades?
There are also Rafale fighters capable of super patrol,
The M88 engine itself is a third-generation engine developed by relying on the American GE9 core engine. The supersonic thrust will drop rapidly. The design level of the French compressor is not good. It can only try to increase the temperature in front of the vortex. It is very difficult to let T/W Reaching 9, the design level cannot even catch up with RD33
I'm tired, I don't want to argue with them anymore

 

[randomradio]

In fact, I don't want to continue the discussion. They treat the gust like a god.
For example, they say active stealth,
I don't see it as reliable as the original Russian plasma stealth.
In this way, the fourth-generation aircraft can achieve the stealth of the fifth-generation aircraft by relying on electronic equipment, so China, the United States and Russia have done useless work for decades?
There are also Rafale fighters capable of super patrol,
The M88 engine itself is a third-generation engine developed by relying on the American GE9 core engine. The supersonic thrust will drop rapidly. The design level of the French compressor is not good. It can only try to increase the temperature in front of the vortex. It is very difficult to let T/W Reaching 9, the design level cannot even catch up with RD33
I'm tired, I don't want to argue with them anymore

Actually, we would like you to think that way. Nothing wrong with it. It's your choice.

Anyway what do you think about "Stealth (-dBsm)" in the Korean infographic?

 

[_Anonymous_]

In fact, I don't want to continue the discussion. They treat the gust like a god.
For example, they say active stealth,
I don't see it as reliable as the original Russian plasma stealth.
In this way, the fourth-generation aircraft can achieve the stealth of the fifth-generation aircraft by relying on electronic equipment, so China, the United States and Russia have done useless work for decades?
There are also Rafale fighters capable of super patrol,
The M88 engine itself is a third-generation engine developed by relying on the American GE9 core engine. The supersonic thrust will drop rapidly. The design level of the French compressor is not good. It can only try to increase the temperature in front of the vortex. It is very difficult to let T/W Reaching 9, the design level cannot even catch up with RD33
I'm tired, I don't want to argue with them anymore

I don't wish to be rude & tell you - I told you so . But I did tell you so earlier in the day . Real pity you ran out of stories sooner rather than later .

 

[Lolwa]

Lack of combat experience, like the TB2, he is pretty much the worst drone you can find on the market, but due to the Armenia-Azerbaijan war,
many people buy them

Inferior to most major drones. But it's pretty sophisticated for what it is. People underestimate turkey but they have got a lot of high quality subcomponents thanks to their nato and western European connections. Especially the Germans who have happily transferred every significant tech they could to arm the Turks. Must be the barbarian blood they both share.

 

[Optimist]

In fact, I don't want to continue the discussion. They treat the gust like a god.
For example, they say active stealth,
I don't see it as reliable as the original Russian plasma stealth.
In this way, the fourth-generation aircraft can achieve the stealth of the fifth-generation aircraft by relying on electronic equipment, so China, the United States and Russia have done useless work for decades?
There are also Rafale fighters capable of super patrol,
The M88 engine itself is a third-generation engine developed by relying on the American GE9 core engine. The supersonic thrust will drop rapidly. The design level of the French compressor is not good. It can only try to increase the temperature in front of the vortex. It is very difficult to let T/W Reaching 9, the design level cannot even catch up with RD33
I'm tired, I don't want to argue with them anymore

I don't blame you. I just like to watch the frogs tie themselves in knots. As they make up these wonderful fantasies.

Before you go. When is china going to be nice to Australia. You do realise it was Whitlam that set you up with the west, 50 years ago.