Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[xxxxx]

You should look up the dimensions of the m-88 and compare why the performace levels are so different. The m-88 is the smallest engine in its class. The rd-33 design is not superior it has far more moving parts making it far less efficient in fact due to its performance Russian engines end up having low reliability and shorter life cycles.

I'm talking about T/W, not thrust, nothing to do with engine size
As for the RD33, this is the first Soviet engine with a modular design. My book has a high rating on the maintainability of the RD33. As for the service life, firstly, the Soviet Union's materials are not as good as those of the United Kingdom and the United States. Secondly, the Soviet Union's lifespan calculation method is also problematic. caused a lot of waste

 

[randomradio]

LOL.
"personal estimation" : you are one of these specialists able to estimate the RCS with just somes pics. Congrats.
EF2000 RCS 1/3 of Rafale one : so funny. The sole RCS effort made on EF2000 is the slights curve of the lower lip of the air intake.

We know this today, but in 2005 it was unknown.

 

[Optimist]

Even with T/W, you need to be careful. It is best to use mil power, non-afterburner. The Russians pump in a lot of fuel to get their numbers. The non-afterburner numbers in comparison to others, aren't as impressive. I don't remember what % increase, the AB gives the rafale. in todays battle space, you probably don't want every IR sensor looking at you in AB anyway.

 

[xxxxx]

Pretty soon only having shaping based stealth will become useless, it may already have become useless, we just don't know it yet. The Indian Air Chief said that aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 are not stealth aircraft, only aircraft like the B-2 and Neuron are stealth. Which is why the IAF is working on acquiring an aircraft like the Rafale, which has electronic stealth and other next gen features, but developing shaping based stealth tech on futuristic drones similar in design to the B-2. And you have to take the IAF chief's claim seriously because India is the only country that has worked with or accessed both Russia and the West on next gen tech.

The only reason why India buys the Rafale is that it can't buy the fourth-generation stealth machine, and I don't know the difference between the B-2's stealth concept and the F35, J20
As for AMCA, I think it's still far away,

Israeli officials have been nothing if not explicit in their assessment of the F-35’s stealth performance. “We think the stealth protection will be good for 5–10 years, but the aircraft will be in service for 30–40 years,” a senior IAF official said. Rather, the IAF is more interested in the F-35 as an advanced electronic warfare (EW) platform: “So we need electronic warfare capabilities that can be rapidly improved. The basic F-35 design is OK. We can make do with adding more software.”

There seems to be no talk of so called active stealth and I don't think the national interest is a trusted military site

It's perfectly fine that they don't believe it. It's exotic tech.

France took an electronic method to achieve stealth, the US used shaping, both were meant for the same goal. But, as we enter 2030, we need to merge these two capabilities, so the US needs to introduce active cancellation on their jets, and France needs to introduce shaping on their jets.

This is what the Israelis think.

He has already said that the so-called active stealth is infeasible in principle
Moreover, there is no so-called active stealth concept in the planning of the future six generations of aircraft between China and the United States.

FYI, LCA Mk1's RCS is 3 times smaller than M2000, so it's even smaller than Gripen C's RCS. Basic math says 0.8/3 = about 0.3m2. The Rafale with its superior RCS reduction measures should be at least 5-10 times more stealthy than the LCA Mk1

As said before, this is not a scientific calculation method

In China's case, you have to show off your capabilities in air shows and tenders, only then can your claims be taken seriously. Every time LCA joins an air show, the JF-17 disappears. JF-17 disappeared from the Malaysian tender as well. That doesn't show confidence in your capabilities. Once China brings the J-10, J-20 etc to the air shows in Paris, Dubai etc, then other experts can see your jets in person and decide to give their opinions about it. But the CCP is afraid of what they will say. Otoh, the minute LCA became operational, we took it to international air shows immediately. FBW restrictions were lifted in Dec 2015, and we showed it off in Bahrain in Feb 2016. We have even entered competitive tenders since then.

This is basically a common rhetoric used by Indian media to smear China and Pakistan, and it has no technical content.

Western jets are vetted in the Parliaments of various countries and other places, like think tanks, so information comes out into the public domain eventually. So Western claims can be taken seriously.

Ha ha

It is what Dassault claims, and it is also what everybody else claims for their own jets too, and they are all similar. There is no publicly released report about RCS that vets and verifies all claims. But the fact is this is what they are claiming and we are quite sure about these figures. Your own graph in post 5381 states Rafale, EF, SH etc have an RCS of -10dBsm, but you decided to read it incorrectly.

The picture I posted is not necessarily accurate, it is just made according to the propaganda of various countries

 

[Optimist]

The picture I posted is not necessarily accurate, it is just made according to the propaganda of various countries

The countries are very secretive of the RCS and EW/EA capabilities. You won't see an official source. Other than just an overview and sometimes that is misinformation to keep secrecy. So it is left to the journalists and fanboys.

I was told. The US had whole weapon systems described as something totally different.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The countries are very secretive of the RCS and EW/EA capabilities. You won't see an official source. Other than just an overview and sometimes that is misinformation to keep secrecy. So it is left to the journalists and fanboys.

No kidding. But somehow US claims become the Holy Grail & the rest fail the smell test especially if they happen to be France or Russia. For some inexplicable reason China gets a pass out here .

I was told. The US had whole weapon systems described as something totally different.

I suspect we'd see a lot of it in action in Europe in the days & weeks ahead.

 

[randomradio]

The only reason why India buys the Rafale is that it can't buy the fourth-generation stealth machine, and I don't know the difference between the B-2's stealth concept and the F35, J20
As for AMCA, I think it's still far away,

It's the vertical fins. Stealth aircraft have to lose the vertical fins, apart from canards. And the wings need to be blended into the fuselage because it's the biggest contributor to RCS in stealth aircraft, so less returns is good.

AMCA is far away, sure.

There seems to be no talk of so called active stealth and I don't think the national interest is a trusted military site

Actually there is a video of an American expert agreeing with the French concept of stealth in France. It's somewhere on this thread, or the MMRCA thread.

He has already said that the so-called active stealth is infeasible in principle
Moreover, there is no so-called active stealth concept in the planning of the future six generations of aircraft between China and the United States.

Nobody on forums have even been able to explain how it works. If they know how it works, it's actually a simple concept, then it will become believable.

As said before, this is not a scientific calculation method

It is. RCS is additive. You reduce RCS by 16 times, you reduce detection range by half. It's in the forumla itself. Now you are questioning basic math.

This is basically a common rhetoric used by Indian media to smear China and Pakistan, and it has no technical content.

So you don't even want to participate in competitive tenders?

Ha ha

There's even public audits. US has GAO and POGO. India has CAG.

Example:

Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report - Indian Express

Putting a big question mark on the performance of the Russian beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles with the Indian Air Force, an audit report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has

archive.indianexpress.com

Putting a big question mark on the performance of the Russian beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles with the Indian Air Force, an audit report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has noted that nearly half the missiles tested either did not home in on targets during evaluations or failed ground tests because they were ageing much before their shelf lives.

The CAG report, which will be released soon, is based on evaluations of the missile — its range is close to 90 km — during ground tests, inspections and test firing by the IAF. The missiles were bought at a "cost of Rs 2 crore each" but their failure during tests, says the CAG report, has affected the "operational preparedness" of the IAF.

"All figures in the report are based on air force records. Everything is verified by the IAF," an official said.

China is a ridiculous police state. You can't compare your standards of information to ours.

The picture I posted is not necessarily accurate, it is just made according to the propaganda of various countries

The exact figures are secret. But the range they fall under is not. Which is why the Koreans put it under negative dBsm, there isn't a more obvious point than that.

You are in denial about very normal stuff, even very ordinary stuff like missile envelope.

 

[randomradio]

The countries are very secretive of the RCS and EW/EA capabilities. You won't see an official source. Other than just an overview and sometimes that is misinformation to keep secrecy. So it is left to the journalists and fanboys.

I was told. The US had whole weapon systems described as something totally different.

Yeah, dude. The Pentagon lies to the Congress.

Are there limits to delusion?

 

[Optimist]

Yeah, dude. The Pentagon lies to the Congress.

Are there limits to delusion?

Show me where the pentagon gave the congress, the db RCS of the f-35 or any other aircraft. You are again being foolish

 

[Optimist]

No kidding. But somehow US claims become the Holy Grail & the rest fail the smell test especially if they happen to be France or Russia. For some inexplicable reason China gets a pass out here .

I suspect we'd see a lot of it in action in Europe in the days & weeks ahead.

There are no official statements telling the exact RCS of any plane. What us fanboys can do is look at a design and see how many things it has, that are on other stealth planes. The Rafale fails this test. even in it's basic shape.

 

[_Anonymous_]

There are no official statements telling the exact RCS of any plane. What us fanboys can do is look at a design and see how many things it has, that are on other stealth planes. The Rafale fails this test. even in it's basic shape.

View attachment 22781
View attachment 22782

Hence shape + active cancellation for Rafales. If you dismiss the latter , it's back to your earlier post I quoted & answered.

 

[john0496]

Come on, evyone here knows the romulian cloaking device is french made and that is why it has been incorporated to the Rafale

More seriously, an interesting source and quite extensive : RAFALE : Le SPECTRA - RAFALE : The omnirole fighter

 

[randomradio]

Come on, evyone here knows the romulian cloaking device is french made and that is why it has been incorporated to the Rafale

It still isn't as good as passive shaping at this time though. But it definitely has the potential to get better. The conformal arrays with EW will be a crucial upgrade, but will become pointless if it comes out in 2035 instead of 2025.

More seriously, an interesting source and quite extensive : RAFALE : Le SPECTRA - RAFALE : The omnirole fighter

Interestingly, the SPECTRA sensors for ISE seem to have been tested on a Rafale-M.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1494572329946419202

 

[Optimist]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1494572329946419202

I hope it's nice and big. It is going to earn France a lot of money, with the French having 55% availability.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

I hope it's nice and big. It is going to earn France a lot of money, with the French having 55% availability.

IAF needs Rafales , no matter how they come

The One Advantage of these CKD kits is that we can have many more Rafales than what is the "Officially Declared " figure

 

[Bon Plan]

Even with T/W, you need to be careful. It is best to use mil power, non-afterburner. The Russians pump in a lot of fuel to get their numbers. The non-afterburner numbers in comparison to others, aren't as impressive. I don't remember what % increase, the AB gives the rafale. in todays battle space, you probably don't want every IR sensor looking at you in AB anyway.

M88 : 5Tons in dry, 7.5T with AB

The only reason why India buys the Rafale is that it can't buy the fourth-generation stealth machine

full BS.

 

[Bon Plan]

with the French having 55% availability.

as my father used to say, when you have something in your head you don't have it in your a**hole. This is your case.
Always answered 1000 times, but when you don't have a brain....

 

[Optimist]

It says it will be a service center, as well as kits. I think more space will be allocated to service, than assembly.

Bon Plan said:
M88 : 5Tons in dry, 7.5T with AB

That is a good ratio.

 

[xxxxx]

China is a ridiculous police state. You can't compare your standards of information to ours.

China has no contact with rafale fighter jets,
We've had contact with gripen
According to the Chinese pilot's speech at Northwestern Polytechnical University
Gripen RCS is 1.5-2
Not 0.1 as Sweden claims
I think that's a reasonable guess

So you don't even want to participate in competitive tenders?

Malaysia is demanding that half of the cost be paid in palm oil, which is unacceptable to Pakistan

So you don't even want to participate in competitive tenders?

Malaysia is demanding that half of the cost be paid in palm oil, which is unacceptable to Pakistan