Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

Su 30mki upgrade will happen, Jf 17 won't squeak after that.

Almost all of our present and upgraded aircraft are superior to pretty much all aircraft in PAF's inventory.

Even our least advanced aircraft operational today, the Bison, has the ability to kill the F-16, especially with the R-73+HMDS combo, which PAF still doesn't possess. The only aircraft that are not a match to the PAF's upgraded F-16s are the handful of Mirages that are yet to be upgraded, which is not long now, and even that will reverse the game for those handful of jets in the next year or two.

Aircraft like Rafale, upgraded MKIs, LCA Mk1A etc will simply give us a bigger lead than what we already have.

The Block 3 JF-17 with the PL-15, albeit advanced, only gives them some BVR advantage against our old MKIs, but even that will disappear once Derby ERs start coming in. Which means, even with Block 3, the PAF still doesn't have an answer to deal with our old MKI fleet, let alone all the new jets coming in.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

According to Rajnath Singh the first 4 Rafale will arrive in India by May 2020. After that it will be one Rafale every 45 days.
That means the rest of the 32 Rafale will take 32x45 days or 4 years to get delivery.
So the 36 Rafale will be with Indian Air force by mid 2024.
By that time PAF will already have 40+ Thunder Block-3 with AESA radar and possibly PL-15 , and continue inducting more.
So what supremacy IAF will get with Rafale?

Dassault has committed to deliver all 36 Rafale for June 2022 and to retrofit them with ISE between June 2022 and September 2022.
The project is on schedule and there is no reason to believe that it will not be able to do so.
The current production rate for India is less than half of the rate that Dassault is achieving globally because it has to deliver the Qatar Rafale at the same time. But deliveries for Qatar are soon to be completed and then Dassault will be able to produce for India at a rate of 26 aircraft per year, which explains the dates I have reminded you of.

 

[safriz]

Dassault has committed to deliver all 36 Rafale for June 2022 and to retrofit them with ISE between June 2022 and September 2022.
The project is on schedule and there is no reason to believe that it will not be able to do so.
The current production rate for India is less than half of the rate that Dassault is achieving globally because it has to deliver the Qatar Rafale at the same time. But deliveries for Qatar are soon to be completed and then Dassault will be able to produce for India at a rate of 26 aircraft per year, which explains the dates I have reminded you of.

It's finances I guess, not capacity.
The budget has been spread over a longer period of time.
Or why would the Indian minister say such a thing!?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

It's finances I guess, not capacity.
The budget has been spread over a longer period of time.
Or why would the Indian minister say such a thing!?

He says such a thing because it is true. But the rate of production for India will change as soon as delivery to Qatar will end. He just explains what will be the short terme and not the whole picture.

 

[hellbent]

All these farts built around bander is nothing but farts

The last crash of bander in the Arabian sea which por..... tried to cover up but nevertheless which got out thanks to social media .

That crash says a lot about the banders so called capabilities

Non existence of Disorientation Recovery Function (DRF) mode forget about other advance modes like auto low-speed recovery (ALSR) etc

Bander is a positive stability aircraft by design like 3rd generation aircrafts .

It is not an unstable aerodynamic ( RSS ) design like Rafale typhoon f16 Tejas j20 etc

Only fighter aircraft in the modern era to not implement RSS ( relaxed static stability ) design. Yet I am super duper which even the designers refuse to induct. Because they know it's worth.

Because it is a stable design , it was flying with conventional flight controls and later hybrid flight controls like in passenger aircrafts.

Aerodynamically unstable aircrafts won't be able to even takeoff without a digital fly by wire.

Advantages of RSS design coupled with FULL FBW are
1.it provides good handling capability
2.it also provides invariant response with respect to variations in aerodynamics , fuel etc and facilitates robust performance.
3.it enables the pilot to fly the mission without worrying about exceeding of flight parameters beyond the safe limits.in flight safety is increased.
4.precise response control , reduced lag and overshoots results in vastly improved response and tracking accuracy of the pilot-airframe system.

Aerodynamically unstable aircrafts need full FBW not only to make them fly but to implement advance flight control and safety features like auto low-speed recovery (ALSR) mode ,Disorientation Recovery Function (DRF) mode etc .

So there goes the farts of jf17 bander block 1 and 2 .

Now coming to block 3 , which is literally the same base aircraft by design. Meaning it is aerodynamically stable like the older blocks but with a new con job , that is a FBW .

Any aircraft designer worth his salt will tell you implementing a FBW on a aerodynamically stable aircraft offers no advantage other than SWaP ( size weight and power ) savings . Reason why full FBW requirement in jf17b twin seater and hence implementation first before single seater bander bk 3.

No ALSR , DRF modes etc , no enhanced maneuverability nothing .

So there goes the farts of jf17 blunder block 3 because it ran short of that too. Now it is shitting

Did I mention hot refuelling , ok forget about it , try hot refuelling with Russian engines bander will disappear in a big fiery fart.

As for KLJ 7A air cooled radar selection tells one thing that is limited power availablity. Oh let's not even mention the form factor limitations due to air cooling.
Also air cooled radars have lower MTBF and as a result degradation in performance, to what extent , that is subject to speculation which I don't want to go into.

Also did somebody realise when jf17 block 1 & 2 actually got its operational certification to fire bvraams.

Anybody ?

Por......... were claiming bvraam firing capability since last 10+ years but ironically
qualification test / handing over of qualification certification for bvr firing capability was done in 2018. I have the video .

So another fart which didn't age too well.

Banders aura of invensibility is in the head of dhoti shivering dimmis with a penchant for gossiping and ofcourse in the well oiled propaganda fart generator of por...........

In the end I will mention

Any aircraft is just an instrument , what equally matters is capabilities of pilot and then the tactics. It's a combination of the three which decides the effectiveness of the same.

So credit the bander only what it is due and for fuccks sake get rid of shitty RoE , better still junk all RoE against enemy combatants.

 

[Bon Plan]

According to Rajnath Singh the first 4 Rafale will arrive in India by May 2020. After that it will be one Rafale every 45 days.
That means the rest of the 32 Rafale will take 32x45 days or 4 years to get delivery.
So the 36 Rafale will be with Indian Air force by mid 2024.
By that time PAF will already have 40+ Thunder Block-3 with AESA radar and possibly PL-15 , and continue inducting more.
So what supremacy IAF will get with Rafale?

You can't compare a 1960 like single engine light JF17 with a medium, twin engines and highly equipped Rafale.

The AESA radar of JF17 can't be on par with RBE2 AESA.
The electronic defense system of JF17 can't be compared to SPECTRA.
No data fusion in the JF17. Meteor is unchallenged.
etc....

So don't worry.

 

[randomradio]

The AESA radar of JF17 can't be on par with RBE2 AESA.

Apparently the production version can only do 170Km versus 5m2 target. It's on the same level as the RBE-2 PESA when it comes to detection range. Even the Uttam's prototype version with less than 800 T/R modules could manage 150Km against 2m2 target.

Plus the KLJ-7A is air-cooled. Possibly a fixed version.

As expected, they got lumped with a less capable export-grade radar.

The electronic defense system of JF17 can't be compared to SPECTRA.
No data fusion in the JF17.

Yep.

Meteor is unchallenged.

Very big difference. Furthermore, even if they get a missile like the PL-15, the radar does not have the range necessary to use its full capabilities. So it's a slight upgrade over a missile like the Aim-120C5.

 

[safriz]

Apparently the production version can only do 170Km versus 5m2 target. It's on the same level as the RBE-2 PESA when it comes to detection range. Even the Uttam's prototype version with less than 800 T/R modules could manage 150Km against 2m2 target.

Plus the KLJ-7A is air-cooled. Possibly a fixed version.

As expected, they got lumped with a less capable export-grade radar.



Yep.



Very big difference. Furthermore, even if they get a missile like the PL-15, the radar does not have the range necessary to use its full capabilities. So it's a slight upgrade over a missile like the Aim-120C5.

If we do arm Thunders with PL-15 then AWACS will be used for terminal guidance not the aircraft radar .

You can't compare a 1960 like single engine light JF17 with a medium, twin engines and highly equipped Rafale.

The AESA radar of JF17 can't be on par with RBE2 AESA.
The electronic defense system of JF17 can't be compared to SPECTRA.
No data fusion in the JF17. Meteor is unchallenged.
etc....

So don't worry.

I agree that Rafale is a potent plane. But there are tactics for defeating a superior machine with the inferior one.
SU-30 did no good on 27th February despite being superior. So there's a recent and relevant example.

 

[screambowl]

I agree that Rafale is a potent plane. But there are tactics for defeating a superior machine with the inferior one.
SU-30 did no good on 27th February despite being superior. So there's a recent and relevant example.

Yes there is a tactict your pilots made a potent aircraft like F16 look inferior to Mig21

 

[randomradio]

If we do arm Thunders with PL-15 then AWACS will be used for terminal guidance not the aircraft radar .

All that works great on paper, but not in real life. The idea behind using AWACS for midcourse updates is to keep the enemy engaged rather than aim for a kill. The radars used on AWACS are not necessarily accurate enough for that.

I agree that Rafale is a potent plane. But there are tactics for defeating a superior machine with the inferior one.

Only if the differences are small.

SU-30 did no good on 27th February despite being superior. So there's a recent and relevant example.

Su-30s were never used beyond creating presence. Did you forget that GoI in their shortsightedness failed to allow the IAF to retaliate over the LoC?

None of the IAF MKIs and M-2000s were allowed to break RoE. Only Abhinandan broke it because his situation was unique enough that allowed him to break it, without permission.

That has changed now. That's why IAF is now freely crossing the LoC at will.

Yes there is a tactict your pilots made a potent aircraft like F16 look inferior to Mig21

Not really. The Mig-21 used its high off-boresight missile and HMDS to get a kill. This is a next generation feature compared to the version of F-16 the PAF used. PAF still lacks such a capability.

 

[vstol Jockey]

All that works great on paper, but not in real life. The idea behind using AWACS for midcourse updates is to keep the enemy engaged rather than aim for a kill. The radars used on AWACS are not necessarily accurate enough for that.



Only if the differences are small.



Su-30s were never used beyond creating presence. Did you forget that GoI in their shortsightedness failed to allow the IAF to retaliate over the LoC?

None of the IAF MKIs and M-2000s were allowed to break RoE. Only Abhinandan broke it because his situation was unique enough that allowed him to break it, without permission.

That has changed now. That's why IAF is now freely crossing the LoC at will.


Not really. The Mig-21 used its high off-boresight missile and HMDS to get a kill. This is a next generation feature compared to the version of F-16 the PAF used. PAF still lacks such a capability.

Only thing that stopped IAF from striking back at the strike package in battle zone or while retreating were the ROE. They have now been revised and trigger free given for proactive engagements.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Only thing that stopped IAF from striking back at the strike package in battle zone or while retreating were the ROE. They have now been revised and trigger free given for proactive engagements.

Anyway they had set up an ambush
BARCAP

So the best answer to these Hit and Run attacks is Counter Strikes
In Another Sector or Immediate
Missile attacks

 

[Saaho]

PL-15

PL-15 does not work. Its Chinese. Enough said.

 

[randomradio]

No IAF is not "freely crossing" LOC.
It is as real as Pokémon running around in my bedroom.
SU-30 didn't cross because the pilots flying them were professionals not internet fanboys or BJP goons and knew that LY-80 are waiting for them on the other side.

You are confused about something. No, fighter jets aren't crossing the LoC, that would be foolish, especially from a diplomatic and political PoV. It's unarmed UAVs that are doing it, providing targeting coordinates to our artillery.

Su-30 not crossing the LoC has nothing to do with anything. As for LY-80, with the small number of batteries you have, none will be along the LoC.

Link-16 was used very successfully on 27th February, so there's the hint.

Sure. It's a proven datalink. But it doesn't change anything with respect to physics. X band is better than S band in this role. S band works really well at low ranges, like targeting provided by ships for point defence. At ranges above 50-75Km, good luck, you will need a gigantic radar. So against a target over 150Km, it's going to be quite useless. That's why I said the range advantage without a decent fighter jet radar will only give you a slight advantage over the AMRAAM that you already possess. At least you can be sure that the PL-15 will be superior to the AMRAAM.

There's the question of range based on the type of aircraft as well. Take the Mig-29UPG for example, the JF-17's AESA claims 170Km against a 5m2 target, but the Mig-29UPG has an RCS of 1m2. Similarly, M2000 is 0.8m2. LCA Mk1 is around 0.3m2. LCA Mk1A is below 0.1m2, along with Rafale.

So the JF-17's radar may only detect the Mig-29UPG at about 115Km, whereas Rafale will be picked up at as low as 50Km. At worst, 130Km for Mig-29UPG and 100Km for Rafale, with missiles. Without ECM. With ECM, the ranges will be even more degraded. The Erieye also will experience the same problem, although it most definitely has more range than most fighter jet radars, but will have crap resolution at such ranges.

Otoh, the Rafale can pick up a 3m2 target from at least 250Km away. So, even if the JF-17's RCS is considered to be 0.1m2, it will be detected at about 105Km. Once you add missiles to it, it will likely be detected at 170Km by the Rafale. The upgraded MKI will do even better than that, 170Km without missiles and 260Km with. So both jets will have a massive range advantage over the JF-17 Block III + PL-15, even if the Erieye supports it.

 

[safriz]

This video is very informative
This guy is French himself.

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1239947210646667264

 

[screambowl]

Only thing that stopped IAF from striking back at the strike package in battle zone or while retreating were the ROE. They have now been revised and trigger free given for proactive engagements.

There is a saying in hindi.

ab pachtaye hoat kya jab chirdhiya choogh gayi khait.

It happens with us Indians all the time.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Scramble Magazine
"India's first Rafale single seat performing taxi-runs"

On 17 March 2020, the Bharatiya Vayu Sena (Indian Air Force) first Rafale EH single seat fighter aircraft, serial BS003, made taxi-runs at Dassault's factory airfield Bordeaux/Mérignac (France). The first flight of the aircraft will most probably occur soon. According to the Scramble Magazine database, three Rafale EHs and all eight Rafale DHs have been noted so far.

In May 2020 it is expected that a first batch of four Rafales will be delivered to 17 Squadron 'Golden Arrows' at Ambala Air Force Station (state of Haryana).

Grilled by GASOLINE_ON_FIRE !!!!

 

[Gautam]

 

[Deathstar]

We can easily mass produce LCAs to take on JF17. Rafales shouldn't even engage with the chinese junk , they are there for PLAAF and PAF F16s.
Scalable UTTAM is the answer for all pf our A/Cs.
Now after Astra we don't need to import Russian AAMs.
Saved money should be invested in long range weapons , EWs , ECM , ECCMs.
I hope we do a JV with Thales to develop next gen Avionics for Rafales + LCAs + MWFs.