No choice infront of a superior & better force.
MONEY my dear twin engine or anything heavy needs HEAVY (loads of) MONEY.
which Pakistan doesn't have with their economy in dump.That was available for free when Uncle gave in ALMS.......
PAF will really SHIT OUT as IAF won't give any chance to retaliate...
Same thing applies for Swedish as Gripen are no match for SU-30/35s of Russian airforce............ only they have better plane in Gripen
but PAF has obsolete F-16s & JF-17 blunders against IAF's SU-30MKI & in future RAFALES which have EW suite that will simply suppress any aggression shown by PAF to level that even PAF Pilots will simply refuse to fly their planes knowing it is suicide mission.
Pakistan was a different country in 80’s and 90 ’s, A small country with good amount US aid worked like a charm.Those happy days are over.There is no political and military understanding in Pakistan.once a military-ruled country will always stay in the shadow of military rule.In world forum, nobody wants to listen to these 5-star general and ISI need only puppet political leaders, Every single top military boss after retirement settle in the foreign country with their family. if you ask me to invest my money I will choose Bangladesh rather than Pakistan.No choice infront of a superior & better force.
MONEY my dear twin engine or anything heavy needs HEAVY (loads of) MONEY.
That was available for free when Uncle gave in ALMS.......
PAF will really SHIT OUT as IAF won't give any chance to retaliate...
Same thing applies for Swedish as Gripen are no match for SU-30/35s of Russian airforce............ only they have better plane in Gripen
but PAF has obsolete F-16s & JF-17 blunders against IAF's SU-30MKI & in future RAFALES which have EW suite that will simply suppress any aggression shown by PAF to level that even PAF Pilots will simply refuse to fly their planes knowing it is suicide mission.
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Paisaa bahut hai ..Ghuroor nahii kertay
That time our economy was much better. Pakistan in 1963 gave quarter of a Billion Dollars (In today's money) aid to West Germany. The letter of Thanks from German Prime Minister is still preserved somewhere.
On topic, the Swedish Ideology of fighting a larger airforce is not as naive as people think. The trick is to allow a bigger "Drunk with power" use their force excessively and make them believe that they have total air dominance. Then to come out of hiding places, use Motorways and highways as Runways and attack them back.
Thats why all Pakistani air defense assets are mobile. All Pakistani fighter jets can land and takeoff from public highways and pilots trained to do that.
All Pakistani airbases have plenty of decoys.
Nobody dishes out money for free. If USA has been giving us aid (45 Billion USD in 70 years) , it was because they have always needed us. During Soviet era their U2 spy planes used to fly from Peshawar air base for spying on soviets. Pakistan came on the brink of being attacked by USSR when the American U2 was shot down and pilot spilled the beans. Khrushchev send a one line message to Pakistan "Gentlemen,don't play with fire".No choice infront of a superior & better force.
MONEY my dear twin engine or anything heavy needs HEAVY (loads of) MONEY.
That was available for free when Uncle gave in ALMS.......
PAF will really SHIT OUT as IAF won't give any chance to retaliate...
Same thing applies for Swedish as Gripen are no match for SU-30/35s of Russian airforce............ only they have better plane in Gripen
but PAF has obsolete F-16s & JF-17 blunders against IAF's SU-30MKI & in future RAFALES which have EW suite that will simply suppress any aggression shown by PAF to level that even PAF Pilots will simply refuse to fly their planes knowing it is suicide mission.
Its another thing that their aid has been touted too much as propaganda and was never enough. The highest ever percentage of Pakistani budget comprising of foreign aid was just 4% .
Paisaa bahut hai ..Ghuroor nahii kertay
Hey you are safriz not sharif.
Because they killed jews....you evil people.
Jokes aside, PAF has never been technically a defensive force especially in 60s and took pride in launching an offense aided with comparatively superior aircrafts and tools. Only in past decade or so IAF has not just caught up but have established technological and numerical superiority over PAF.
In my opinion, Pakistan has responded back intelligently, reverted their posture to defensive and design tactics around causing maximum damage with limited equipment while holding themselves for maximum of time to allow political player work out.
Dual engine do not fit neither your bill, nor your doctrine anymore. There are more asking needs for money to be put. Navy is one of that.
Great answer. It is cheaper to learn from others than from one's own mistakes.
@safriz actually made a lot of sense with his reasoning about the current Pakistani defence doctrine being connected to the relative numbers and the relative level of equipment. This amounts to a decision by their deep state to do the opposite of Mao's dictum:"Flout the enemy strategically, respect him tactically." At present, Pakistani doctrine seems to be,"Respect the enemy strategically, flout him tactically." Since they refer to irregular warfare when they refer to tactical methods, it seems to work Pakistan, at least in the short run.
It hardly needs adding that the inevitable result will be for India's response to be to hold strong against Pakistani irregular warfare, and to retaliate strategically, as hard and as frequently as the resources at hand permit. Obvious targets would be the less favoured arms of the Pakistani services; so their Navy, then their Air Force would come under attack, either in isolation by the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force, or in combinations of any two of the three services working together.
Well, it looks like our strategic command is taking new events in the Indian weapons development and procurement seriously.
Pakistan will test fire it's longest range missile in the next few days.
The NOTAM is for a range of 2900 km and we are unaware of an existing Pakistani missile of that range, so it has to be something new.
Pakistan will test fire it's longest range missile in the next few days.
The NOTAM is for a range of 2900 km and we are unaware of an existing Pakistani missile of that range, so it has to be something new.
Pakistans economy is in dumps with even the highways now being mortgaged along with some airports. Most of the defence funding goes to Army and ISI and balance what goes to Air force and Navy, Pakistan has stopped "buying" planes for long time and is more depending on "aid" from USA which has stopped now and now China and which for its pound of flesh is taking parts of Pakistan for its own advancements.
What as per you is the reason by PAF avoids its? PAF used American version of Canberra bomber. There can be many ludicrous and funny reasons like
1. They dont like to maintain engines, and so single engine planes becomes more managable than twin engines (as two engines have to be maintained, double the work)
2. Maybe short of fund.. Or available twin engine planes cost and few single engine planes come as aid.
3. Objectivity, Pakistan feels that it should be able to reach Delhi with its fighters which is within range of its single engine planes, where as india wants to have planes that even from Middle of India can target far reaches of pakistan.
4. PAF is limited only to defensive role, where as Pakistan knows it wont win a conventional war going for few weeks and hence it would often come down to nuclear blackmailing.
These are some of the reasons I can come up with.
YES, and rarely used it.
Swedes were under belief that they would sit out the initial wave but that depends very much on credible intelligence, Soviet union was an animal where there was no initial wave but a Tsunami which destroys everything, When the enemy installs their air defence system, its very difficult for a plane to just try and take off and be heroic, That was possible during WW2 when radar was not well developed.
In India-Pakistan case, there might be an initial wave and then Su-30 MKI will ensure that PAF (if hidden) stays buried
With Sweden, geographically their area supports guerrilla war like Afghanistan, East of Pakistan is wonderful farmland, and such tactics will mean that Punjab and Sindh part of pakistan would be lost.
What as per you is the reason by PAF avoids its? PAF used American version of Canberra bomber. There can be many ludicrous and funny reasons like
1. They dont like to maintain engines, and so single engine planes becomes more managable than twin engines (as two engines have to be maintained, double the work)
2. Maybe short of fund.. Or available twin engine planes cost and few single engine planes come as aid.
3. Objectivity, Pakistan feels that it should be able to reach Delhi with its fighters which is within range of its single engine planes, where as india wants to have planes that even from Middle of India can target far reaches of pakistan.
4. PAF is limited only to defensive role, where as Pakistan knows it wont win a conventional war going for few weeks and hence it would often come down to nuclear blackmailing.
These are some of the reasons I can come up with.
YES, and rarely used it.
Swedes were under belief that they would sit out the initial wave but that depends very much on credible intelligence, Soviet union was an animal where there was no initial wave but a Tsunami which destroys everything, When the enemy installs their air defence system, its very difficult for a plane to just try and take off and be heroic, That was possible during WW2 when radar was not well developed.
In India-Pakistan case, there might be an initial wave and then Su-30 MKI will ensure that PAF (if hidden) stays buried
With Sweden, geographically their area supports guerrilla war like Afghanistan, East of Pakistan is wonderful farmland, and such tactics will mean that Punjab and Sindh part of pakistan would be lost.
You mean that there has been a 3000 km range missile with Pakistan before this? Which would that be?
Just because the total length of the warning area is 2900 km does not mean the missile being tested is of same range .
Margin of error is added for warning areas .
Yes that can be the case and we will have to wait and see.
I noticed that exact same NOTAM was issued in 2015 for Shaheen-3 test, so it may just be a third test of Shaheen-3.
It just happens that I am writing this comment is an S-400 thread and there are some points in Shaheen-3 pertinent to S-400.
The S-400 can detect anything flying above a certain size , but tracking becomes a different thing. Detection doesn't equate to tracking.
There are limitations for S-400 when it comes to target tracking.
The system can track targets flying at Mach 13.7 and below. Above that speed S-400 cannot track the target and cannot fire an interceptor.
Shaheen-3 was designed keeping all that in mind. The missile was first fired to an Apogee of 692 Km, second test was 580 km apogee and the latest NOTAM is also for same safety altitude. So it can be assumed that 580 km is the maximum flight altitude of Shaheen-3.
High apogee gives greater freefall time and resultant greater speed at re-entry.
The stated re-entry speed of Shaheen-3 is 22226 km / hour. Or Mach 18.
That's about 4 Mach numbers higher than what the S-400 can track.
Then radar cross section of incoming warhead. The warhead of Shaheen-3 is 40% smaller than Shaheen-2 warhead. Hence much smaller radar cross section and difficult to detect.
Ababeel uses three of the same warheads, however as of now we are unaware of its apogee or Re-entry speed.
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It would be foolish to spend S-400 missiles on IRBM like Shaheen 3, LR SAM/MR SAM would be enough to intercept it. Future test of ADV/PDV combined to detect such IRBMs will prove it.
Sorry missed a 2.
Its 22226 Km/h.
Stated by SPD official at an IDEAS exhibition.
Having lived through two Martial laws of General Zia and General Musharraf, those were the best years of Pakistan in my memory. Prices were low, criminals and politicians (who Are also criminals anyway) were dealt with brutally and there was peace and calm in the country. Foreign policy was strong. Pakistan had a good stature internationally and people had no problem with Martial law,only politicians had the problem.
Then came democracy and prices in Zardari era rocketed five folds while income staying almost the same. Nawaz did even worse and now me living and earning in UK finds it difficult to go to Pakistan and not empty my pockets. In fact many everyday use things are now cheaper in UK than Pakistan . Thats because the politicians have shares in international companies and have given them total dominance in local business specially food business. For example Nestle a swiss company buys Pakistan's local milk, labels them as Nestle and then sells it to Pakistani public in European price. As a result milk in the world's fourth largest Milk producing country Pakistan is more expensive than UK. These things did not happen in Martial law years.
About American aid in the 80s and 90s you mentioned. It never crossed half a Billion dollar for any year,and we had to care for 30 lakh Afghan refugees for which USA promised aid. Its just that they only gave 60 USD per year per Afghan refugee,which wasn't even enough for the food. It was Pakistani public and government who was bearing the rest of the costs through charity collections by Pakistani public.
I was old enough back then to remember the whole of Afghan Soviet war. Before the war we were barely aware of a country called Afghanistan . To us the world ended after Peshawar and the areas beyond were "Not to go" because we simply did not know much about them.
The soviets came and Afghans started leaving their country and coming to ours. Pakistani people felt sorry for them and helped them. Our family opened our private lands for Afghan refugee camps, dug a water well for the refugees from our own money, gave them free electricity , enough to sustain the 10 refugee tents on our land, and fed them for free for about a month until they could find employment. They stayed for free on our land for about an year before the government could arrange a proper refugee camp for them. We were not alone. Throughout the country hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis opened their lands,homes,hearts and minds and bank account to help Afghans.
Its very sad that today instead of recognizing our good deed, the world and the Pakistani youth who know nothing, give all credit to US aid. Those of us who remember all that era, remember it otherwise.
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