S-400 'Triumf' News & Discussion

[safriz]

@safriz I also want to know your view of Pakistan s obsession over Indian Kashmir.

So you want me to poke the hornet's nest?
In short we don't consider any part of Kashmir to be part of India. Havent since 1947 and never will.
British India was divided based on Two nation theory as agreed between Jinnah,Gandhi,Sardar Tara singh and other leaders at Simla conference.
Two nation theory was that parts of British India in which Majority is Muslims , should join Pakistan and Parts of British India where Hindus are majority should join India.
Sardar Tara Singh wanted a separate homeland for Sikh,but was shunned by Nehru. He later went on Hunger strike,but thats a seperate story.
Kashmir,Hyderabad Daccan, Junagarh and Certain other states had Majority Muslims and as per the two nation theory should have been either part of Pakistan . Hyderabad Daccan was attacked and forcibly merged into India. Junagarh and some other states met similar fate.
Ruler of Kashmir betrayed the wishes of his majority subject the Muslim population and sided with India. Although he only gave Defense and foreign affairs to Indian government. It wasn't a total merger, a lose temporary union. All other matters had to be dealt with by Kashmir's own government, until a plebiscite is held,to which Nehru did agree.
To this date we Pakistanis await India to fulfill the promises of their founding father Nehru , about Kashmir.
To hold a referendum in Kashmir where Kashmiri people decide what they want to do.
Here is what Maharaja hari Singh's own son Karan Singh had to say in the Indian Parliament about Kashmir and India.

 

[Sathya]

So you want me to poke the hornet's nest?
In short we don't consider any part of Kashmir to be part of India. Havent since 1947 and never will.

How could Pakistan cede Akshai chin to China ? A land obsessed for eternity.
Why can't Pakistan live with what territory that's currently held by both sides.
In fact India lost Big chunk of Pakistan, and living with it.

Indian part of Kashmir was never under Pakistan.. So why Obsessed so much that s root cause of hatred probably.
By forgetting what was not yours till now. You can peacefully erase enmity.

By understanding your thoughts, a educated foreign settled Pakistani who can peacefully coexist with all people.. Think they Never will accept the current status.. It's a long way to peace .

Thanks for your honest opinion,
Sorry for being off topic .

 

[bonobashi]

So you want me to poke the hornet's nest?
In short we don't consider any part of Kashmir to be part of India. Havent since 1947 and never will.
British India was divided based on Two nation theory as agreed between Jinnah,Gandhi,Sardar Tara singh and other leaders at Simla conference.
Two nation theory was that parts of British India in which Majority is Muslims , should join Pakistan and Parts of British India where Hindus are majority should join India.
Sardar Tara Singh wanted a separate homeland for Sikh,but was shunned by Nehru. He later went on Hunger strike,but thats a seperate story.
Kashmir,Hyderabad Daccan, Junagarh and Certain other states had Majority Muslims and as per the two nation theory should have been either part of Pakistan . Hyderabad Daccan was attacked and forcibly merged into India. Junagarh and some other states met similar fate.
Ruler of Kashmir betrayed the wishes of his majority subject the Muslim population and sided with India. Although he only gave Defense and foreign affairs to Indian government. It wasn't a total merger, a lose temporary union. All other matters had to be dealt with by Kashmir's own government, until a plebiscite is held,to which Nehru did agree.
To this date we Pakistanis await India to fulfill the promises of their founding father Nehru , about Kashmir.
To hold a referendum in Kashmir where Kashmiri people decide what they want to do.
Here is what Maharaja hari Singh's own son Karan Singh had to say in the Indian Parliament about Kashmir and India.

@Sathya

That was hugely off topic.

Also need to caution you that perhaps the ultimate authority on Kashmir from the Pakistani side, in terms of the legal argument, is already a member; @safriz has got very heavy guns backing him up, if he chooses to ask for back-up.

I suggest any discussion on Kashmir, or on the narration relating to the wars that the two nations have already fought, should be routed through the administration, and should be kept free of trolling or of fanboy enthusiasm from either side. Please open these topics with care.

 

[Sathya]

@Sathya

That was hugely off topic.

Also need to caution you that perhaps the ultimate authority on Kashmir from the Pakistani side, in terms of the legal argument, is already a member; @safriz has got very heavy guns backing him up, if he chooses to ask for back-up.

I suggest any discussion on Kashmir, or on the narration relating to the wars that the two nations have already fought, should be routed through the administration, and should be kept free of trolling or of fanboy enthusiasm from either side. Please open these topics with care.

It s okay, I was not to win arguments.
I just wanted to know his opinion.
Compared to citizens living in Pakistan, those living abroad have liberal thoughts.
So just asked him to know if they have a mindset to keep the borders as such and live at peace.

I wonder why we allowed Pakistan to separate. .? To live in peace and harmony?

 

[bonobashi]

It s okay, I was not to win arguments.
I just wanted to know his opinion.
Compared to citizens living in Pakistan, those living abroad have liberal thoughts.
So just asked him to know if they have a mindset to keep the borders as such and live at peace.

I wonder why we allowed Pakistan to separate. .? To live in peace and harmony?

We are still off-topic.

There were two trains of thought, as @safriz partially explained. The Gandhian one was a one nation theory, that refused to accept that all Indians could not achieve their particular aspirations in a universal franchise democracy. The Two Nation Theory was the opposed argument, and held that parochial differences amounted to cultural differences, and went down to constituting separate nations, living together in uneasy peace. After WWII, when the British under Attlee decided on separation and on giving India independence, it had to be decided which would prevail. The Cabinet Mission suggested in 1946 that there should be a single Dominion, with three segments and a centre, and that the centre should have only three subjects, defence, foreign affairs and communications; all others should vest in the three segments. In this way, Muslims living in their own majority areas might be assured that they would not face domination by the overall majority of Hindu Indians; laws and statutes other than on the three reserved subjects would be taken up by the three 'states', independent of each other, subject to whatever constitution existed. Both the Congress and Jinnah agreed, both against their inclination.

One of Jinnah's stipulations was that delegates to the soon-to-be-formed constituent assembly should be bound to work according to the instructions of the provisional government running their returning 'state'. It seemed to have been acceptable to both sides, but in a press conference in July of that year, Nehru suggested that the delegates should vote freely, as their conscience dictated, and not as their returning state allowed. This convinced Jinnah that only partition was possible, and he informed the British that the Muslim League now stood freed of their obligations after the Cabinet Mission discussions, and that only a formal partition would be acceptable to it. And so it was.

 

[Shashank]

S-400 deal may be finalised by March 31


India and Russia could be just weeks away from signing one of the biggest defence deals between the two sides in recent history, said two senior defence sources this week.

The contract negotiations for the purchase of the S-400 Triumf long range air defence systems are in the final stages, and are expected to be closed by March 31.

India is planning to buy five systems that is expected to cost about ₹39,000 crore and is considered one of the most potent Surface to Air missile systems in the world. It can track and shoot down a range of incoming airborne targets at ranges of upto 400km.

“We expect to conclude the S-400 contract within this financial year,” a defence source said.

In 2016, the two countries had concluded the Inter-Governmental Agreements for five S-400 systems and four stealth frigates after which the contract negotiations began to conclude a commercial contract.

Another defence official said they expect to wind up the cost negotiations within the next 10 days.

Officials termed the negotiations as “very complex” as there were thousands of pages of documentation to be discussed. Russia has already conveyed to India that the deal should not have any offset clause as it is a strategic system.

For India, deploying the S-400 means that Pakistani aircraft can be tracked even when they are flying in their airspace. This will significantly beef up India’s alert levels in securing the country’s air space. The systems will be operated by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

China which has signed a $3 billion deal for six S-400 systems in 2014 has begun taking delivery of them. In December 2017, Turkey signed an agreement for two systems.

 

[Shashank]

This is going to get ugly now.

US Senate Warns Russia of Sanctions if S-400 Sold to Any Foreign Nations

A group of US lawmakers led by Senator Bob Menendez told the State Department in a letter that any sale of Russian S-400 air defense system should lead to new punitive measures as stipulated in the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

“We are writing today to specifically inquire about reported negotiations between Russia and certain countries over sales of the Russian government’s S-400 air defense system and whether these reported deals could trigger mandatory CAATSA sanctions,” the letter said on Friday. “Under any circumstance, a S-400 sale would be considered a ‘significant transaction’ and we expect that any sale would result in designations.”

The lawmakers also requested that the State Department provide detailed analysis on the current status of Russian S-400 talks with China, Turkey, India, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and any other country.

The senators based their letter on a report produced by the Congressional Research Service, which showed that Russia has been working on potential defense deals with different countries. Menendez and co-signers demanded information on how the State Department is trying to prevent the sales of S-400 being finalized and reiterated Washington’s accusations of Russia’s aggression in Ukraine and meddling in democratic process in foreign states.

The request comes just a day after the Treasury Department used the CAATSA legislation, along with an Executive Order that was amended by CAATSA, to impose sanctions on five entities and 19 individuals.

Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB), Main Intelligence Directorate and six Russian individuals were sanctioned under the CAATSA legislation.

The US Congress passed CAATSA last summer in response to allegations that Russia sought to influence the 2016 US presidential election. Trump signed it into law on August 2.

 

[lcafanboy]

US Senate Warns Russia of Sanctions if S-400 Sold to Any Foreign NationsSunday, March 18, 2018

By: SPUTNIK News

Source Link: CLICK HERE





A group of US lawmakers led by Senator Bob Menendez told the State Department in a letter that any sale of Russian S-400 air defense system should lead to new punitive measures as stipulated in the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

“We are writing today to specifically inquire about reported negotiations between Russia and certain countries over sales of the Russian government’s S-400 air defense system and whether these reported deals could trigger mandatory CAATSA sanctions,” the letter said on Friday. “Under any circumstance, a S-400 sale would be considered a ‘significant transaction’ and we expect that any sale would result in designations.”

The lawmakers also requested that the State Department provide detailed analysis on the current status of Russian S-400 talks with China, Turkey, India, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and any other country.

The senators based their letter on a report produced by the Congressional Research Service, which showed that Russia has been working on potential defense deals with different countries. Menendez and co-signers demanded information on how the State Department is trying to prevent the sales of S-400 being finalized and reiterated Washington’s accusations of Russia’s aggression in Ukraine and meddling in democratic process in foreign states.

The request comes just a day after the Treasury Department used the CAATSA legislation, along with an Executive Order that was amended by CAATSA, to impose sanctions on five entities and 19 individuals.

Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB), Main Intelligence Directorate and six Russian individuals were sanctioned under the CAATSA legislation.

The US Congress passed CAATSA last summer in response to allegations that Russia sought to influence the 2016 US presidential election. Trump signed it into law on August 2.

US Senate Warns Russia of Sanctions if S-400 Sold to Any Foreign Nations

 

[Himanshu]

S-400 No More: Turkey to Discuss Purchase of Patriot System With US

MOSCOW (Sputnik) - Turkey and the United States are expected to discuss the former's purchase of US Patriot missile system, Aksam Turkish newspaper reported on Friday, citing a statement made by Hami Aksoy, the spokesman for the Turkish Foreign Ministry.

Aksoy is expected to discuss the issue during a possible visit to the United States next week, the newspaper reported.

The news comes after a group of US lawmakers, led by Senator Bob Menendez, told the State Department in a letter on March 17 that any sale of Russian S-400 air defense systems — including to Turkey — should lead to punitive measures under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

Russia and Turkey signed a loan agreement on the purchase of Russian-made S-400 air defense missile systems in December 2017. According to the deal, Russia will supply Turkey with four batteries of S-400s. The initial delivery of the batteries to Ankara is planned for the first quarter of 2020, and the systems will be operated by the Turkish Armed Forces independently of Russia.

The deal also faced criticism from Turkey's NATO allies. On March 3, NATO Deputy Secretary General Rose Gottemoeller said that the S-400 were incompatible with NATO members' systems, while NATO's Military Committee Chairman Petr Pavel warned that although the nations had sovereignty in decision-making, they were also "sovereign in facing the consequences of that decision."

The US Congress passed CAATSA last summer in response to allegations that Russia sought to influence the 2016 presidential election. Trump signed it into law on August 2. Starting from January 29, Washington began imposing new sanctions under CAATSA regarding significant transactions with Russian defense sectors.

 

[Shashank]

S-400 No More: Turkey to Discuss Purchase of Patriot System With US

MOSCOW (Sputnik) - Turkey and the United States are expected to discuss the former's purchase of US Patriot missile system, Aksam Turkish newspaper reported on Friday, citing a statement made by Hami Aksoy, the spokesman for the Turkish Foreign Ministry.

Aksoy is expected to discuss the issue during a possible visit to the United States next week, the newspaper reported.

The news comes after a group of US lawmakers, led by Senator Bob Menendez, told the State Department in a letter on March 17 that any sale of Russian S-400 air defense systems — including to Turkey — should lead to punitive measures under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

Russia and Turkey signed a loan agreement on the purchase of Russian-made S-400 air defense missile systems in December 2017. According to the deal, Russia will supply Turkey with four batteries of S-400s. The initial delivery of the batteries to Ankara is planned for the first quarter of 2020, and the systems will be operated by the Turkish Armed Forces independently of Russia.

The deal also faced criticism from Turkey's NATO allies. On March 3, NATO Deputy Secretary General Rose Gottemoeller said that the S-400 were incompatible with NATO members' systems, while NATO's Military Committee Chairman Petr Pavel warned that although the nations had sovereignty in decision-making, they were also "sovereign in facing the consequences of that decision."

The US Congress passed CAATSA last summer in response to allegations that Russia sought to influence the 2016 presidential election. Trump signed it into law on August 2. Starting from January 29, Washington began imposing new sanctions under CAATSA regarding significant transactions with Russian defense sectors.

This is a bad news for us as well. We are also in advance stage of finalizing the purchase of S-400. One more example of turkey being very untrustworthy partner. in 2-3 years they have changed their partners at least thrice.

 

[suryakiran]

This is a bad news for us as well. We are also in advance stage of finalizing the purchase of S-400. One more example of turkey being very untrustworthy partner. in 2-3 years they have changed their partners at least thrice.

This is good for us. 2 reasons. 1 we are not a threat to the US. 2. The Russians will sell it to just spite the Americans.
The easiest sell for both sides is India. The Americans will dance about the sale, but will not be hurt by it. The Russians will say, we spited the Americans but no real damage. Both sides win.

 

[Bali78]

This is a bad news for us as well. We are also in advance stage of finalizing the purchase of S-400. One more example of turkey being very untrustworthy partner. in 2-3 years they have changed their partners at least thrice.

I don't think it's going to affect us. US cannot force us to abandon deals with Russia. We have far too many dependencies with Russia and we cannot piss them off after going so far. Plus we need S-400 to counter China and that will indirectly help US.
Equation with Turkey is vastly different from India.

 

[TARGET]

This is a bad news for us as well. We are also in advance stage of finalizing the purchase of S-400. One more example of turkey being very untrustworthy partner. in 2-3 years they have changed their partners at least thrice.

If this rule will be applicable on India,we may go for JV option with make in India ...integrating with our BMD system.why not create a hybrid system with Indian requirements.

 

[Ashwin]

India-Russia expected to seal S-400 Triumf deal in October; Nirmala Sitharaman's visit bolsters ties

India and Russia are expected to finally seal the deal for procuring S-400 Triumf anti-aircraft weapon system in October. The deal will be finalised when Prime Minister Narendra Modi meets Russian President Vladimir Putin during the latter’s visit to India for the bilateral annual summit, reports HT. India at first had shown the desire of buying 12 missile systems, but has now decided that it will buy only 5 S-400 Triumf missile systems. The cost of the deal is estimated to be Rs 39,000 crore. Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman is in Russia and the deal is likely to feature prominently in her talks with the Russian counterpart.

Experts believe that the S-400 Triumf, which is a medium and long-range anti-aircraft weapon system, helps in protecting our borders with India and China. The multifunctional S-400 Triumf can destroy aerial threats at an approximate range of 40 to 400 km at the altitude of up to 3000 meters. India is likely to deploy the 3 S-400 missile systems near the Pakistan border and 2 near the Chinese border in the East. However. China already boasts of having the S-400 Triumf procured from Russia. Both Russia and China have not disclosed the number of missile systems that China has procured.

Nirmala Sitharaman also addressed the 7th Moscow Conference on International Security yesterday in Russia. She hailed Russia as a long-standing friend with whom India shares a special bond. Seeking greater co-operation between Russia and the West, Sitharaman said, “A key facet of the prevailing international situation is the continued and raising unpredictability in relations between major powers. This is both unprecedented and a matter of great concern.” The current deterioration of relations between Russia and the West is the reflection of this trend, she added.

After calling for greater cooperation between Russia and the West, she said that India sought Russia’s active participation in combating terrorism and regional menace that it faces today. She made it clear that India had a strict ‘zero tolerance’ policy towards terrorism. She termed the growing maritime dispute in Indian Ocean Region and South China sea as a complex issue. She asked for the inclusive participation of all international players and called for a peaceful resolution through diplomatic talks.

Sitharaman met the Russian Defence Minister General Sergei Shoygu and Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin in Moscow. She and Sergei Shoygu discussed defence cooperation between India and Russia, particularly with a focus on military-technical cooperation. They also discussed issues of bilateral importance, military to military cooperation and other regional issues in a delegation level talks.

A statement issued by the Ministry of Defence here said that the Defence Minister Sitharaman and her counterpart Sergi Shoygu reviewed a roadmap of military cooperation, which involves joint exercises, training, exchange of visits, and India’s participation in International Army Games that is to be held in Russia this year. The current visit by Nirmala Sitharaman is expected to give an impetus to several defence deals that have been pending between the India and Russia. Apart from the discussion on the deal for the procurement of S-400 Triumf, Sitharaman is also likely to take up deals for the procurement of MiG-29, KA-226T and Mi-17 V5 copters and also few frigates for the navy.

Sitharaman also met Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov yesterday. They discussed the ongoing military-technical cooperation projects that India and Russia are part of. Nirmala Sitharaman also spoke about the measures to promote Russia’s participation in defence production under the ambitious “Make in India” initiative. She also welcomed Russia and its private players to participate actively in the upcoming DefExpo 2018, that is to be held in Chennai from 11th April to 14th April. On the sidelines of the Moscow Conference, Nirmala Sitharaman also met General Ngo Xuan Lich, Defence Minister of Vietnam and also interacted with Serbian Defence Minister Aleksandar Vulin.

 

[randomradio]

India is likely to deploy the 3 S-400 missile systems near the Pakistan border and 2 near the Chinese border in the East.

I actually expect 3 to be deployed in North India, Punjab, Haryana and Delhi. And two will be to protect one of the IAF's many strategic sites. Maybe Pune, Bareilly or Gwalior, in that order. The Pune site will be able to protect Mumbai also.

 

[Bon Plan]

S-400 No More: Turkey to Discuss Purchase of Patriot System With US

MOSCOW (Sputnik) - Turkey and the United States are expected to discuss the former's purchase of US Patriot missile system, Aksam Turkish newspaper reported on Friday, citing a statement made by Hami Aksoy, the spokesman for the Turkish Foreign Ministry.

Aksoy is expected to discuss the issue during a possible visit to the United States next week, the newspaper reported.

The news comes after a group of US lawmakers, led by Senator Bob Menendez, told the State Department in a letter on March 17 that any sale of Russian S-400 air defense systems — including to Turkey — should lead to punitive measures under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

Russia and Turkey signed a loan agreement on the purchase of Russian-made S-400 air defense missile systems in December 2017. According to the deal, Russia will supply Turkey with four batteries of S-400s. The initial delivery of the batteries to Ankara is planned for the first quarter of 2020, and the systems will be operated by the Turkish Armed Forces independently of Russia.

The deal also faced criticism from Turkey's NATO allies. On March 3, NATO Deputy Secretary General Rose Gottemoeller said that the S-400 were incompatible with NATO members' systems, while NATO's Military Committee Chairman Petr Pavel warned that although the nations had sovereignty in decision-making, they were also "sovereign in facing the consequences of that decision."

The US Congress passed CAATSA last summer in response to allegations that Russia sought to influence the 2016 presidential election. Trump signed it into law on August 2. Starting from January 29, Washington began imposing new sanctions under CAATSA regarding significant transactions with Russian defense sectors.

what a mess with Turkey !
chinese SAM,
then ASTER,
then S400,
then Patriot.

 

[Ashwin]

what a mess with Turkey !
chinese SAM,
then ASTER,
then S400,
then Patriot.

Add Eurosam

 

[randomradio]

what a mess with Turkey !
chinese SAM,
then ASTER,
then S400,
then Patriot.

Turkey will get S-400.

Turkey says Russian S-400 missile delivery brought forward to July...
The planned delivery of Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile batteries to Turkey has been brought forward to July 2019, the Turkish undersecretary for defense industries said, from the first quarter of 2020.

 

[Himanshu]

what a mess with Turkey !
chinese SAM,
then ASTER,
then S400,
then Patriot.

Turkey Explains Why It Preferred Russia's S-400 Missiles to US Patriots

Ankara failed to agree with Washington on the transfer of technology related to the Patriot missile systems, which is why it has signed an agreement to be supplied with Russia's S-400 missiles, according to the Turkish presidential spokesman.

The Turkish newspaper Hurriyet Daily News cited Ibrahim Kalin, the Turkish President's spokesman as saying that "work for delivery of Russian S-400 missile defense systems within 2019 has been finalized," which is not the case with the US Patriot interceptors.

Singling out "objective criteria" on purchasing foreign air defenses, Kalin specifically stressed Ankara's priority pertaining to the joint production of such systems.

"We could not agree with the production company of the Patriots [during previous talks],"while the Russian side has "taken quicker steps," he underscored.

Kalin made it plain that Ankara would go ahead with talks on the purchase of the Patriot systems if Washington "meets the required conditions." According to him, "the ball is in the US' court."

Kalin also said that Turkey's NATO membership will not affect Ankara acquiring the S-400 systems, which he recalled are being purchased for defense purposes. According to him, it will not pose a threat to the alliance.

Speaking at a press conference after his talks with Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan earlier this week, Russian President Vladimir Putin said that Moscow and Ankara have agreed to speed up the delivery of the S-400 systems to Turkey.

In December 2017, Russia and Turkey signed a loan agreement on the purchase of the Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile systems.

The deal stipulates that Russia will supply Turkey with four batteries of the S-400s, to be maintained by Turkish personnel. The initial delivery of the batteries to Ankara is planned for the first quarter of 2020.

The parties also agreed on technological cooperation in order to develop the production of similar missile systems in Turkey.

Late in February, the Turkish newspaper Haberturk cited an unnamed US official as saying that Washington is concerned about Ankara's push to buy Russian S-400 systems.

The official warned that it may "negatively influence the interoperability of NATO" and that the White House may introduce punitive measures in response.

"We want to help Turkey find a better alternative to meet its air defense needs," the official said.

Earlier, it was reported that Washington is doing its best to prompt Ankara to buy the Patriot systems instead of the S-400s.

 

[Bon Plan]

Add Eurosam

EUROSAM = ASTER30