Shivalik-class & Nilgiri-class (Project 17 A/B) Frigates : Discussions

[randomradio]

There is the aspect that Shivalik did not have any ship-launched torpedo armament so the helos were it's only offensive ASW capability.

Nilgiri on the other hand does appear to have torpedo tubes, so a single large helo may have been considered enough for the frigate class going forward. Destroyers will continue to house 2 hangars.

The extra helicopter was primarily to expand on the ASW mission. But now that we are going for more dedicated ASW capable ships in more numbers, and also 4 LHDs, which can double, 3 carriers etc, we do not have the need for an extra helicopter on our ships going forward. There's the SSN program as well.

 

[Gautam]

The SAM complement is only for self protection. So 32 SAMs are more than adequate.

What makes you say that ? IN ships, unlike USN ships, don't spend most of their time as a part of a CBG. They usually travel alone or in a small groups. As such it becomes easier to target them. I understand that an enemy has multiple means of attacking and an airborne attack is just one component of it. But still it would be relatively easier to overwhelm our ships traveling alone then when traveling in a group. 32 seems a bit too less. Also are we going to use Barak 8s for all targets irrespective of range ? That would be a waste. Better use Barak 1 for short range point defence.

As for DEW, we are working towards those technologies. It will become public knowledge only once testing begins. But it won't be a stretch to suggest all the MF-STAR equipped ships can also get an Israeli laser. Like the Iron Beam for example.

We are actually doing quite a bit on the DEW front. The focus seems to be on the High powered microwave weapons. Of course a lot needs to be done before we can have any of that in service.

 

[randomradio]

What makes you say that ? IN ships, unlike USN ships, don't spend most of their time as a part of a CBG. They usually travel alone or in a small groups. As such it becomes easier to target them. I understand that an enemy has multiple means of attacking and an airborne attack is just one component of it. But still it would be relatively easier to overwhelm our ships traveling alone then when traveling in a group. 32 seems a bit too less. Also are we going to use Barak 8s for all targets irrespective of range ? That would be a waste. Better use Barak 1 for short range point defence.

In a perfect world, in order to deplete Barak 8, you need to fire 16 AShMs. PLAN ships carry only 8 AShMs. So you need 2 PLAN ships in order to deplete all the SAMs of just one Kolkata class ship. And I'm willing to bet the IN goes around with the belief that they will have numerical superiority anyway, so, in a perfect world, the number of AShMs fired will be less than the number of SAMs IN will operate in any given scenario.

Apart from that, there's ECM, combat air patrols etc, which will further reduce the number of AShMs that are threatening our ships. And of course, there's the Brahmos advantage, where Chinese ships will most likely be taken out before they get within firing range of our ships.

And yeah, only a few ships are used in CBGs, most of our ships will be used for offence and defence missions. But those also happen in groups.

We are actually doing quite a bit on the DEW front. The focus seems to be on the High powered microwave weapons. Of course a lot needs to be done before we can have any of that in service.

There was a report out in Israel a few years ago where a 'foreign customer' was paying for the development of shipborne lasers integrated with the MF-STAR. The report lamented the fact that the laser was too big to be carried on smaller boats and ships, which is of little benefit to Israel. So... TIFWIW.

 

[Gautam]

In a perfect world, in order to deplete Barak 8, you need to fire 16 AShMs. PLAN ships carry only 8 AShMs. So you need 2 PLAN ships in order to deplete all the SAMs of just one Kolkata class ship. And I'm willing to bet the IN goes around with the belief that they will have numerical superiority anyway, so, in a perfect world, the number of AShMs fired will be less than the number of SAMs IN will operate in any given scenario.

Apart from that, there's ECM, combat air patrols etc, which will further reduce the number of AShMs that are threatening our ships. And of course, there's the Brahmos advantage, where Chinese ships will most likely be taken out before they get within firing range of our ships.

And yeah, only a few ships are used in CBGs, most of our ships will be used for offence and defence missions. But those also happen in groups.

Assuming the "fight" takes place in the Indian Ocean. The Chinese would have a lot more to worry about than just Baraks and Brahmos. The land based cruise missile batteries alone can overwhelm Chinese CBGs not to mention ballistic missiles. But lets leave that aside for the moment. What about fights beyond the IOR ? The IN can't be a blue water force if it can't project power continuously in far away waters.

In say the SCS, the advantages brought by having the coastal batteries and the Air force no longer exists. If anything the adversary has those advantages, though not as overwhelming given the dense presence of ADs/BMDs around that area. In those situations a larger AD package is a necessity.

What missile does the P-17A use for point defence ? We need to get rid of those RBUs, at least in their present form. A VLS version would be great. Also the AK630 need to be replaced with something like the Kashtan CIWS.

There was a report out in Israel a few years ago where a 'foreign customer' was paying for the development of shipborne lasers integrated with the MF-STAR. The report lamented the fact that the laser was too big to be carried on smaller boats and ships, which is of little benefit to Israel. So... TIFWIW.

Interesting. Could I have a link to the article, please ?
Do our boats today produce enough surplus power for a DEW to be used or do we need additional gen sets ? Also didn't the Israelis work with the Americans on the THEL ? That thing to me seemed ideally sized for shipboard AD roles.

 

[randomradio]

The IN can't be a blue water force if it can't project power continuously in far away waters.

Slaughtered.

Need a full-fledged CBG if we are to go around in someone else's ocean. In the IOR, we can have aircraft in the air, but outside, nope.

In say the SCS, the advantages brought by having the coastal batteries and the Air force no longer exists. If anything the adversary has those advantages, though not as overwhelming given the dense presence of ADs/BMDs around that area. In those situations a larger AD package is a necessity.

AD is pointless there. You need fighter jets.

What missile does the P-17A use for point defence ?

None that I know of. Barak 8 and AK-630 are probably it.

Interesting. Could I have a link to the article, please ?

It's only from my memory.

Do our boats today produce enough surplus power for a DEW to be used or do we need additional gen sets ? Also didn't the Israelis work with the Americans on the THEL ? That thing to me seemed ideally sized for shipboard AD roles.

The DEW will come with its own power source. Basically a battery or batteries recharged by the ship's engines.

THEL is sh!t. It's a chemical laser, and we also have something like that already. What we need is solid state lasers. Iron Beam is one of them. Its range was more than 10Km a few years ago. If it gets to 20-30Km, then we are in business.

An American equivalent is HELLADS. It's going on the AB class first.

 

[GuardianRED]

Assuming the "fight" takes place in the Indian Ocean. The Chinese would have a lot more to worry about than just Baraks and Brahmos. The land based cruise missile batteries alone can overwhelm Chinese CBGs not to mention ballistic missiles. But lets leave that aside for the moment. What about fights beyond the IOR ? The IN can't be a blue water force if it can't project power continuously in far away waters.

In say the SCS, the advantages brought by having the coastal batteries and the Air force no longer exists. If anything the adversary has those advantages, though not as overwhelming given the dense presence of ADs/BMDs around that area. In those situations a larger AD package is a necessity.

What missile does the P-17A use for point defence ? We need to get rid of those RBUs, at least in their present form. A VLS version would be great. Also the AK630 need to be replaced with something like the Kashtan CIWS.

Interesting. Could I have a link to the article, please ?
Do our boats today produce enough surplus power for a DEW to be used or do we need additional gen sets ? Also didn't the Israelis work with the Americans on the THEL ? That thing to me seemed ideally sized for shipboard AD roles.
View attachment 10125

With Regards to the Kashtan CIWS

There were issue with the same - something to do with its coverage and with operating in Indian Conditions. We see this in the change in CIWS for the Talwar class - where the Kashtan in the First Flight (3 Hulls) change to AK630 with no point defence missiles in the second flight (3 Hulls)

It is to be seen what we are getting in the final flight (4 Hulls)

 

[Gautam]

With Regards to the Kashtan CIWS

There were issue with the same - something to do with its coverage and with operating in Indian Conditions. We see this in the change in CIWS for the Talwar class - where the Kashtan in the First Flight (3 Hulls) change to AK630 with no point defence missiles in the second flight (3 Hulls)

It is to be seen what we are getting in the final flight (4 Hulls)

Interesting. What could cause a degradation of performance ? The Kashtan has the same gun as the AK-630, if I am not wrong, as such it can't be overheating in tropical climate. The missiles on the Kashtan should work just fine too.

We should at least try to develop our own Kashtan/Phalanx type CIWS. OFB already makes the GSh 630 cannon. All we need is a VSHORAD type missile, the rest including FCRs, C&C we have them handled. Just make an attempt !

 

[Nilgiri]

You got a ship dedicated to you @Nilgiri. Congrats.
The flush deck looks stunning. But we all know they are going to add rails on that thing and it won't be truly flush anymore.

Also the reason for the removal of the RHIB bay isn't something I can comprehend. It feels like a step in the wrong direction.

What is the secondary radar ? Wasn't it supposed to be BEL-Indra LANZA ? It looks like a Thales SMART-L in the CGI.

Nilgiri has heritage and pedigree in IN, updated Leander-class frigates were "Nilgiri class" too.

 

[Gautam]

Nilgiri has heritage and pedigree in IN, updated Leander-class frigates were "Nilgiri class" too.

Oh shucks !!(@randomradio see that I got the spelling right this time)
You got multiple ships to your name.
I want one too.
I hereby propose : the Gautam-class tug boat.

 

[Ashwin]

India’s Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba unveiled the 3D Air Surveillance Radar built by Navratna Defence PSU Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), today at the on-going DefExpo India 2018, in Chennai.
3D C/D Band Air Surveillance Radar is a Multi-Function Active Phased Array Radar with Solid state Transceiver for Land and Naval applications. The Radar provides 3 dimensional target data along with Doppler data.
The Radar employs multi-beam in elevation, mono pulse in azimuth, Digital Pulse compression, Pulse Doppler and many Advanced and contemporary Technologies, with very elegant and modular architecture. These technologies enable detection of very low RCS targets from complex land and sea clutter and jamming environment.

BEL’s New 3D Air Surveillance Radar Unveiled At DefExpo 2018


Maybe, we could see this radar on P17A

 

[Gautam]

India Navy fully pays for frigates under construction at Russian shipyard

Posted On Wednesday, 25 September 2019, 11:28

India has fully paid for the Project 11356 missile frigates, which Russia’s Yantar Shipyard in the Kaliningrad Region is building for the Indian Navy, President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov told reporters on Tuesday.

Russia’s Yantar Shipyard is building Project 11356 missile frigates for Indian Navy (Picture source: TASS)

The president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation said the Yantar Shipyard would carry out work to outfit the warships and expressed confidence that the shipbuilders would comply with the schedule of their construction.

"The responsibility is so high and the budget is so critical that we have no chances to disrupt work under these orders," Rakhmanov said, stressing that this was the issue of the shipyard’s reputation.

Russia and India signed contracts in November 2018 on the delivery of four Project 11356 frigates. Under the deal, two frigates will be built at Russia’s Yantar Shipyard on the Baltic coast (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) and the other two will be constructed at India’s Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL). Head of Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation Rakhmanov earlier reported that the first two Project 11356 frigates for India would be built in Russia within three years.

Project 11356 frigates are designed to deliver strikes against enemy surface ships and submarines in the coastal and oceanic zones and fight air targets both independently and as part of a naval group. The warships of this type are armed with A-190 100mm artillery guns, striking missile and air defence systems, including Kalibr and Shtil complexes and torpedo tubes. The frigates displace 3,620 tonnes, are 124.8 meters long, develop a speed of 30 knots and have an operating range of 4,850 miles. The frigates can carry a Ka-27 helicopter and its modification.

India Navy fully pays for frigates under construction at Russian shipyard

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1177831009951178752

 

[Gautam]

Well this looks like fun (reduce volume if using headphones) :

Better quality video :

 

[Ashwin]

Зачем Индии фрегаты проекта 11356

Also, a couple of weeks before the statement of Alexei Rakhmanov, curious information appeared on the website of the Ukrainian enterprise Zorya - Mashproekt:

Zorya - Mashproekt signed several contracts with an Indian customer for the supply of a large volume of gas turbine equipment. The signing of the contracts took place on September 12 in Delhi (India). The supply range includes gas turbine engines, gearboxes, spare parts kits. The equipment is intended for ships of various classes that are part of the Indian Navy. The signed contracts also provide for the training of Indian specialists in the operation of gas turbine units and the provision of engineering support.

Under the terms of the contracts, the shipment and delivery of products will be carried out in batches. The first delivery is scheduled for December 2019. In general, the implementation of contracts is envisaged throughout the next 2020. "

It is easy to guess that we are talking about the very M7N.1E for unfinished frigates. But the details of the transaction were not disclosed, and this is the most interesting, since Ukraine once received from Russia money for these gas turbines, but didn’t deliver the goods. It is quite possible that this issue was also settled.

At the moment, it is known that Yantar will complete for India two frigates Admiral Butakov and Admiral Istomin that have already been launched. The next two ships will be built in India at the shipyard "Goa Shipyard Ltd" with the help of our specialists. Currently, the company is awaiting technical documentation from the Northern PKB. What will happen to the third frigate Admiral Istomin is unknown, but it is quite possible that its hull structures will be used in the construction of one of the Indian ships. The Future Will show. In addition, there is information that, when completed, 22 Indian-built systems will be installed, including navigation equipment, a combat information system, ground-based surveillance radar and DRDO HUMSA sonar.

Also,, at the end of 2019, when the frigates will be lifted to the slipway, the Indian Navy team will arrive at the Yantar enterprise to assess the amount of work.

 

[Gautam]

Old news but I don't think it was posted :

Indian Navy to name 7th frigate in P17A series as 'Mahendragiri'

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185493174699122688

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Seems work is now on , for the first two Talwar of the latest batch.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1191915833884381185

 

[Gautam]

Centre inks pact with Goa Shipyard for two missile frigates

By PTI | Nov 14, 2019, 02.14 PM IST

INS Tarkash(F50), a Talwar-Class guided missile frigate.

The Centre has signed a contract with the Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) for construction of two advanced missile frigates for the Navy, Union Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik said here on Thursday. This is the state-run shipyard’s largest order so far, he said. The project will be a stepping stone for the Goa Shipyard to construct weapon-intensive and technologically advanced warships in future, and will bolster the ‘Make In India’ objective of the Union government, Naik said.

He was speaking at the launch of an offshore patrol vessel constructed by the GSL for the Indian Coast Guard. Coast Guard’s Director General Krishnaswamy Natrajan and Department of Defence Production Secretary Subhash Chandra were also present on the occasion.

“In recognition of the GSL’s performance and capabilities, the Union government has signed a contract with it for construction of two advanced missile frigates for the Indian Navy,” Naik said. “This is the largest order in the history of GSL and I am confident that with the dedication of all workers and management, the shipyard will execute the project in a time- bound and effective manner,” he said.

The project will ensure work opportunities for a large number of Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises (MSMEs) in Goa, the minister said.

He said the government has been giving a lot of impetus to exports and a number of favourable policy changes have been made to promote export of defence products.”I am pleased to see that PSU shipyards such as the GSL are actively involved in exports and closely interacting with a number of Asian and African countries,” he said.

“Some of the projects are at advanced stages of conclusion. I urge you (GSL) to continue the momentum and increase your global footprint,” the minister said. He also said that the DefExpo 2020, which is scheduled to be held in Lucknow in February, wil also offer an excellent opportunity to showcase the capabilities of India’s defence and shipbuilding industry to foreign visitors and promote the export potential.

Centre inks pact with Goa Shipyard for two missile frigates

 

[Aniruddha]

Centre inks pact with Goa Shipyard for two missile frigates

By PTI | Nov 14, 2019, 02.14 PM IST
View attachment 11347
INS Tarkash(F50), a Talwar-Class guided missile frigate.

The Centre has signed a contract with the Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) for construction of two advanced missile frigates for the Navy, Union Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik said here on Thursday. This is the state-run shipyard’s largest order so far, he said. The project will be a stepping stone for the Goa Shipyard to construct weapon-intensive and technologically advanced warships in future, and will bolster the ‘Make In India’ objective of the Union government, Naik said.

He was speaking at the launch of an offshore patrol vessel constructed by the GSL for the Indian Coast Guard. Coast Guard’s Director General Krishnaswamy Natrajan and Department of Defence Production Secretary Subhash Chandra were also present on the occasion.

“In recognition of the GSL’s performance and capabilities, the Union government has signed a contract with it for construction of two advanced missile frigates for the Indian Navy,” Naik said. “This is the largest order in the history of GSL and I am confident that with the dedication of all workers and management, the shipyard will execute the project in a time- bound and effective manner,” he said.

The project will ensure work opportunities for a large number of Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises (MSMEs) in Goa, the minister said.

He said the government has been giving a lot of impetus to exports and a number of favourable policy changes have been made to promote export of defence products.”I am pleased to see that PSU shipyards such as the GSL are actively involved in exports and closely interacting with a number of Asian and African countries,” he said.

“Some of the projects are at advanced stages of conclusion. I urge you (GSL) to continue the momentum and increase your global footprint,” the minister said. He also said that the DefExpo 2020, which is scheduled to be held in Lucknow in February, wil also offer an excellent opportunity to showcase the capabilities of India’s defence and shipbuilding industry to foreign visitors and promote the export potential.

Centre inks pact with Goa Shipyard for two missile frigates

Will the new frigates ordered come with a Barak 8 VLS system similar to Admiral Grigovorich class frigates of the Russian Navy or continue using the Shtil-1 single arm launcher currently on our previous 6 Talwar class frigates??

 

[Gautam]

Will the new frigates ordered come with a Barak 8 VLS system similar to Admiral Grigovorich class frigates of the Russian Navy or continue using the Shtil-1 single arm launcher currently on our previous 6 Talwar class frigates??

They will probably use the Shtil-1 but in VLS not with the arm launchers. I remember the Navy planning to remove the arm launchers from the Talwar class and opt for VLS when the ships go for a refit. I don't remember what happened to it.

The Shtil-1 is preferred because it offers a longer range than the Barak-1 and less than Barak-8. It is meant to be an intermediate between them. So when Talwar class ships works along side a Kolkata class, you have a comprehensive AD system. The combination will be bettered by the upcoming Shivalik class and Vizag class combo.