Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Kvasir]

The Caracal rifles are carbon copies of the HK416 and HK417 with different hand guards.

HK416K or Caracal?

Why not simply "Indianize" the HK416 or HK417 like was done with the HK416N, HK416K and HK416S for cold and wet climates?

HK isn't marketing outside of Europe and North American, focusing on contracts in France and the US right now, but it's still up for business if an interested party approaches it. Not everything has to be done through a tender, sometimes direct contact is the best course for procurement.

 

[Parthu]

Let us talk little more about Caracal, South Korean Rifle and Israeli Ace. One of these is going to be indian Army front line soldier rifle for next generation.

Although, a fake news item says that Caracal and South Korean rifle has been declared non compliant. But I do not believe it. An arms merchant in Delhi is pushing for the Israeli rifle.

Although, I am not an arms expert but whatever I read about Caracal that it is an admixture of German and American designs and technology, it probably is a better design. It is also priced much cheaper.

Caracal and S&T Motiv were declared non-compliant in the FTP tender for carbines, not rifles. Two separate deals.

The Caracal rifles are carbon copies of the HK416 and HK417 with different hand guards.

HK416K or Caracal?

Why not simply "Indianize" the HK416 or HK417 like was done with the HK416N, HK416K and HK416S for cold and wet climates?

HK isn't marketing outside of Europe and North American, focusing on contracts in France and the US right now, but it's still up for business if an interested party approaches it. Not everything has to be done through a tender, sometimes direct contact is the best course for procurement.

Last I heard, H&K has taken a corporate decision (not enforced by German Govt. as far as I know), to distance itself from any deals with a number of countries they deemed undemocratic, corrupt or otherwise not affiliated with NATO. India is in that list.

One of the world's biggest arms companies just said they would no longer supply Saudi Arabia

Has this decision been reversed or India made an exception? If so, then I guess HK could stand to get some contracts for Special Forces (limited numbers), but I don't think the prices on their guns could compete favorably with likes of IWI.

It is not impossible for the MoD to seek a direct Govt-to-Govt deal for equipment needed on an emergency basis or special cases...but when the issue is about buying nearly 700,000 rifles for the entire infantry, not choosing the cheaper option will raise a lot of eyebrows and more than likely will lead to further political muck down the line.

 

[randomradio]

So SIG 716 rifles and CAR 816 carbines, @Parthu? @Milspec @Hellfire @vstol Jockey?

 

[Himanshu]

US-made rifle, UAE carbine to equip Indian Army soldiers

The US arm-maker SIG Sauer's SiG 716 finished with the 'L1' or lowest quote for the army's fast track procurement of 72,000 new automatic rifles.

The UAE arms firm Caracal's CAR 816 close-quarter carbine finished 'L1' in a separate bid for 94,000 carbines, when price bids were opened this week.

The SIG weapon chambered for the 7.62x51 mm round beat two contenders, a Caracal battle rifle and a rifle from Israeli Weapons Industries. Caracal's 816 carbine chambered for the 5.56x45 round, priced out a competitor fielded by Thales-Australia.

The army plans to spend Rs 3,500 crore on these rifle acquisitions for which it had issued RFPs on 17 global arms manufacturers in February this year. It has cited urgent operational requirements for the procurement of these weapons. A senior army official called the rifle and carbine procurements a "top priority" for the infantry.

Contract negotiations with the vendor are expected to last over three months before a deal can be signed. The rifle makers have to deliver all their weapons within a year.

Significantly, these will be India's first major purchases of a US-made rifle. Apart from small consignments of M16 rifles for the SFF in the 1960s and M4s for the Special Forces over a decade ago, the Indian army has used European rifles, the FN-FAL, AK-47 type weapons and the indigenous INSAS rifles.

The new carbine will replace the 9 mm Sterling carbines which are being gradually phased out. The new battle rifle which chambers the heavier 7.62x51 round will replace the indigenous INSAS assault rifles which are to be retired soon.

The bulk of the Indian army will, however, be equipped with a new assault rifle chambered for the 7.62x39 round, the same as used by the AK-47 assault rifle. A Request for Information or RFI, the first stage in a lengthy procurement process was floated by the defence ministry last month.

SIG Sauer, a firm with origins in a Swiss-German weapons consortium, is headquartered in New Hampshire, USA. Carbine-maker Caracal is based in Abu Dhabi, UAE.

Both countries are top diplomatic priorities for the Modi led government. These two FTP procurements are to be followed by a government-to-government deal with another diplomatic priority for the Modi government-Russia.

India plans to license-produce the AK-103 assault rifle in one of three Indian ordnance factories which have the capability to build assault rifle.

The AK-103 is a more modern variant of the iconic Russian assault rifle. Talks for the production line were initiated by defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman in Moscow in April this year. The Russian rifle is expected to meet the requirement for the 650,000 assault rifles for which RFIs were floated recently.

Both the SiG and the Caracal carbine are based on the AR-15 rifle designed by legendary US designer Eugene Stoner in the 1950s. If acquired, it will be the first large-scale induction of short-stroke piston-based rifles.

The piston is a feature of gas-operated automatic rifles that use gases generated by a fired cartridge to fire other bullets. (The army's Para-Special Forces units use a small number of US-made M-4 rifles using a similar firing mechanism). The INSAS uses the long-stroke piston used by the AK-47 family of weapons.

The fast track procurements are the closest the Indian army has come to equipping its infantry soldiers with new small arms in over a decade.

The process to replace the troubled INSAS rifle began over a decade ago but has muddled along as the army changed specifications for the replacement two times. It first wanted a rifle which could shoot two types of cartridges-an AK-47 bullet and an INSAS bullet -- then scrapped it for a modified INSAS rifle. This requirement too was scrapped in favour of a new 7.62x51 battle rifle which it now seems likely to acquire.

US-made rifle, UAE carbine to equip Indian Army soldiers

 

[Angel Eyes]

So now we will buy guns from UAE, pathetic!

 

[Parthu]

So SIG 716 rifles and CAR 816 carbines, @Parthu? @Milspec @Hellfire @vstol Jockey?

Seems so, however, now there is this:

After S Korea, French company sends protest note to MoD over CQBs for the Indian Army

If this is anything like the other deals IA does...I won't be surprised the carbine competition will be cancelled, re-issued, then cancelled again and so on.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Seems so, however, now there is this:

After S Korea, French company sends protest note to MoD over CQBs for the Indian Army

If this is anything like the other deals IA does...I won't be surprised the carbine competition will be cancelled, re-issued, then cancelled again and so on.

somehow, French companies get thrown out at the very stage and then they come back to emerge L1.

 

[GuardianRED]

Seems so, however, now there is this:

After S Korea, French company sends protest note to MoD over CQBs for the Indian Army

If this is anything like the other deals IA does...I won't be surprised the carbine competition will be cancelled, re-issued, then cancelled again and so on.

Agree

So just to clarify - this is for specialised infantry units yes? or we are going to see this as standard infantry rifle?

 

[randomradio]

Seems so, however, now there is this:

After S Korea, French company sends protest note to MoD over CQBs for the Indian Army

If this is anything like the other deals IA does...I won't be surprised the carbine competition will be cancelled, re-issued, then cancelled again and so on.

It doesn't look like the protest note has enough soup to cancel the deal.

 

[randomradio]

My 2 kopeks worth - AK-103 in license production from OFB for majority to replace INSAS ?

The AK-103 seems to be a separate contract. There is a separate tender out for 7.62x39mm for 650,000 rifles.

 

[randomradio]

That is what I am referring to. OFB with AK103 is front runner AFAIK.

IMHO, I don't think the AK-103 will win the tender.

But it's become pretty weird now.

Just 72,000 SIG 716 with 7.62x51mm and then 650,000 rifles with 7.62x39mm.

One would expect at least the front line troops will get just one type of calibre.

Of course, there's a good chance this new RFI is just for tech discovery. And once the RFP is released, it may go back to 7.62x51mm.

 

[randomradio]

7.62 x 51 mm for Infantry units and the 7.62 x 39 mm for the rest? The carbines will replace our venerable 9mm, so not that confusing!

The front line infantry need as many as 200,000+ rifles and the CQB requirement is 350,000.

The FTP takes care of 72400 rifles and 93895 carbines. So I hope the remaining 1.3L rifles and 2.56L carbines come through the private industry. It's better to have a GTG for the SIG 716 and CAR 816 instead, with Indian production.

I may be wrong of course, but the nudge to Russians to tie up with OFB has been at the behest of the GoI AFAIK. The aim is to ensure quality and not appear too biased towards private firms in defence sector. Earlier the Russians were trying to tie up with a private entity for the same. Hence, this seems to have credence - the acquisition of AK-103 into IA, IAF, IN to replace INSAS.

I suppose the GoI has simply decided to give the Russians any deals that will not come under CAATSA scrutiny. If the front line troops get high quality western rifles and the rest get the AK-103, the army will probably be fine with that.

The present dispensation is smarting under DRAL issue, although that too was a decision of Dassault with GoI merely being a facilitator.

I really fail to understand why we remain hell bent on shooting ourselves in our knees and then complaining when we fall. Even US has consolidation of sectors under Boeing and Lockheed Martin, of course a conglomerate with deep financial pockets will have the wherewithal to take on diversification at the scale that Reliance Group does (both Mukesh and Anil). Case of sour grapes and nothing more. HAL is clearly incapable of assuring quality and speed of deliveries. As per off record admission of few people there I managed to speak to.

Do you see what I meant when I said the armed forces themselves shouldn't encourage a deviation from process?

Even when GoI doesn't screw around with the process, like what's happening now, any slight deviations also come under scrutiny. The problem with this govt is they have been so efficient that the Opposition does not have any venues to attack them from, so they have to make stuff up.

 

[randomradio]

Okay, elaborate on that, with the number of units of Infantry to be equipped. You will find the figure a bit off by a few factors. And CQB is authorized to very few personnel in a unit - namely Officers, JCOs and NCOs. So that figure of 350,000 is again way too high.

Those are the numbers that have been thrown around in the media since quite some time.

India's enemies be warned: New guns for Indian troops

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-sh...a-new-assault-rifle-for-its-army/20111130.htm
This tender too mandates a 30 per cent offset liability and transfer of technology to the OFB to build around 400,000 CQB carbines to replace the outmoded 9mm model currently being used by the army.

In 2004-05 the army had projected a requirement for 420,000-odd CBQ and new generation protective carbines for its 359 infantry battalions and 66 associated RR units but it took the MoD five years before issuing the RfP for them.

Scroll down to page 26, 3rd paragraph. It talks about 380,000 to 400,000 carbines.
https://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/Public/dpi/articles/DSI June 2013.pdf

It meets two objectives:

1. Of upgrading the firepower to replace INSAS. These weapons will be held as personal weapons by personnel of armoured/artillery/EME/Engineers/ASC/AOC/AMC/mechanized infantry etc ... basically everyone other than infantry and is perfectly fine.

2. Of engaging Russia continuously notwithstanding US relations.

Yep. The second rung weapons were never a problem. The requirement is lower, the numbers needed is higher, so they were even considering the INSAS. Glad that they are importing this need instead.

So the only question is what's going to fulfil the need for the infantry. 359 battalions now have a potential order for only 72400 rifles. So we need a tender for more than 1.5L rifles now.

I will address that issue when I do get around to penning a write up on Leadership Challenges in the 21st Century for IA. That is an issue I will address in depth and perhaps, you will understand how Army itself is more responsible for the position it finds itself in.

Yes, please.

That I agree and that is where I would urge you and other experts of Rafale here to prepare to have sceptics who you need to educate/clarify issue to. We might see few of them around.

Look at the kind of precedent the Congress has created? In case BJP loses, even they will attack perfectly good Congress initiated defence deals from now on. I hope the BJP never stoops so low.

 

[TARGET]

So now we will buy guns from UAE, pathetic!

Check this videos of Caracal and the history behind this gun

 

[Harsh Bardhan]

NSG Commando with SPAS-15 and a more proper FAST BUMP High-Cut Ballistic Helmet with Communication Sets ( First Pic of an Indian Operative in such a set-up ).

Indian Forces are increasingly inducting High Cut Ballistic Helmets with Special Forces like Para SF and NSG and even Infantry Strike Platoons named Ghatak with TEAM WENDY supplying the EXFIL Ballistic Helmet with Arjun Thermal Sight.

Indian Troopers on LoC armed with Bulgarian AR-M1 , FAB Defense MOD AR-M1 , X-95 with Mepro Mor RDS and Romanian AK with BEL Holographic Sight. They are sporting TEAM WENDY EXFIL Ballistic Helmet with Tonbo Arjun ARJ25 Thermal and Mukut ACHs with GoPro.

 

[Harsh Bardhan]

Indian Army also seems to be inducting some weapons which were long used by CAPFs like X-95 and SSG-69. AFAIK X-95 were inducted much before MP-9 came in picture to replace Sterling Carbines in service with Indian Army as a specialized weapon. It is only now they are spotted for field use.

Gurkha Platoon on LoC with FAB Defense MOD AR-M1 with BEL Holographic, SSG-69 Sniper Rifle and K-9 Squad.

Indian Army is also inducting good old SSG-69 Precision Rifles though the only Bolt-Action Precision Rifles they possessed earlier were Mauser SP-66, SSG-3000 and M98B. These seem to be as short-term procurements or just revamping their combat inventory for field uses.

 

[Parthu]

AND AGAIN....

Thanks to @Abingdonboy for the find!

Indian Army will have to wait some more, fresh RfP to be issued for replacement of outdated Insas by close-quarter carbines
By: Huma Siddiqui | Published: November 20, 2018 6:00 PM

Despite efforts of the Indian Army to fast track the procurement of small arms, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is considering to issue a fresh request for proposal (RfP) for the procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle carbines (CQB), a deal worth $553.33 mn.

The Indian Army which has been trying for long time to replace age-old ‘INSAS’ rifles which has reliability issues, has so far failed in finding the right replacement either from foreign OEMs or from the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

After receiving a series of complaints against Caracal of the UAE which was shortlisted as the lowest bidders for the CQBs, from the other bidders including French Company Thales and S&T Motiv of South Korea, the MoD is mulling on cancelling the previous RfP.

As has been reported earlier by FE, a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier has been receiving complaints regarding non compliance of Caracal of UAE.

The UAE Company has failed to submit its response as per the format of the commercial bid and the amount of Rs 70 crore was not reflected in the bid format which is used for determination of L1 vendor. Concerns have also been expressed to the nine member committee about the ability of Caracal to supply 96,000 weapons within a period of 12 months as required under the RfP.

Officials confirmed that the UAE based company started its commercial production in 2014 and till date does not have a lot of orders to indicate that it has the capacity to produce 93,895 CQBs. Adding, “This, in turn will also impact the life cycle of the weapon as the company has no previous data to establish the reliability of the CQB.”

As has been reported earlier, the procurement of 93,895 CQB for the Indian Army had run into rough weather, when after stiff evaluations two companies — Caracal of the UAE and S&T Motiv of South Korea —had been declared non-compliant by a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier.

This left Sig Sauer of the US, Kanpur-based MKU with French company Thales in the race.

Caracal of the UAE and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea were competing for this deal. It may be recalled that the Embassy of South Korea in New Delhi had protested against being declared non compliant in spite of meeting all the requirements laid down in the request for proposal.

The nine member team had gone to facilities of the competing companies before being invited for the extensive trials in India for testing with the Indian ammunition and in different terrains and temperature.

Representatives of the S&T Motiv, producers of small arms for the last four decades were part of the delegation when South Korean President Moon Jae-in had visited India in July. The company had offered to transfer technology to produce the CQBs under Make in India initiative when the defence minister of that country had visited close on the heels of President Moon Jae-in.

@Milspec @Hellfire @randomradio @Ashwin

 

[Milspec]

AND AGAIN....

Thanks to @Abingdonboy for the find!

Indian Army will have to wait some more, fresh RfP to be issued for replacement of outdated Insas by close-quarter carbines
By: Huma Siddiqui | Published: November 20, 2018 6:00 PM

Despite efforts of the Indian Army to fast track the procurement of small arms, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is considering to issue a fresh request for proposal (RfP) for the procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle carbines (CQB), a deal worth $553.33 mn.

The Indian Army which has been trying for long time to replace age-old ‘INSAS’ rifles which has reliability issues, has so far failed in finding the right replacement either from foreign OEMs or from the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

After receiving a series of complaints against Caracal of the UAE which was shortlisted as the lowest bidders for the CQBs, from the other bidders including French Company Thales and S&T Motiv of South Korea, the MoD is mulling on cancelling the previous RfP.

As has been reported earlier by FE, a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier has been receiving complaints regarding non compliance of Caracal of UAE.

The UAE Company has failed to submit its response as per the format of the commercial bid and the amount of Rs 70 crore was not reflected in the bid format which is used for determination of L1 vendor. Concerns have also been expressed to the nine member committee about the ability of Caracal to supply 96,000 weapons within a period of 12 months as required under the RfP.

Officials confirmed that the UAE based company started its commercial production in 2014 and till date does not have a lot of orders to indicate that it has the capacity to produce 93,895 CQBs. Adding, “This, in turn will also impact the life cycle of the weapon as the company has no previous data to establish the reliability of the CQB.”

As has been reported earlier, the procurement of 93,895 CQB for the Indian Army had run into rough weather, when after stiff evaluations two companies — Caracal of the UAE and S&T Motiv of South Korea —had been declared non-compliant by a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier.

This left Sig Sauer of the US, Kanpur-based MKU with French company Thales in the race.

Caracal of the UAE and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea were competing for this deal. It may be recalled that the Embassy of South Korea in New Delhi had protested against being declared non compliant in spite of meeting all the requirements laid down in the request for proposal.

The nine member team had gone to facilities of the competing companies before being invited for the extensive trials in India for testing with the Indian ammunition and in different terrains and temperature.

Representatives of the S&T Motiv, producers of small arms for the last four decades were part of the delegation when South Korean President Moon Jae-in had visited India in July. The company had offered to transfer technology to produce the CQBs under Make in India initiative when the defence minister of that country had visited close on the heels of President Moon Jae-in.

@Milspec @Hellfire @randomradio @Ashwin

Bloody jokers.

 

[GuardianRED]

AND AGAIN....

Thanks to @Abingdonboy for the find!

Indian Army will have to wait some more, fresh RfP to be issued for replacement of outdated Insas by close-quarter carbines
By: Huma Siddiqui | Published: November 20, 2018 6:00 PM

Despite efforts of the Indian Army to fast track the procurement of small arms, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is considering to issue a fresh request for proposal (RfP) for the procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle carbines (CQB), a deal worth $553.33 mn.

The Indian Army which has been trying for long time to replace age-old ‘INSAS’ rifles which has reliability issues, has so far failed in finding the right replacement either from foreign OEMs or from the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

After receiving a series of complaints against Caracal of the UAE which was shortlisted as the lowest bidders for the CQBs, from the other bidders including French Company Thales and S&T Motiv of South Korea, the MoD is mulling on cancelling the previous RfP.

As has been reported earlier by FE, a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier has been receiving complaints regarding non compliance of Caracal of UAE.

The UAE Company has failed to submit its response as per the format of the commercial bid and the amount of Rs 70 crore was not reflected in the bid format which is used for determination of L1 vendor. Concerns have also been expressed to the nine member committee about the ability of Caracal to supply 96,000 weapons within a period of 12 months as required under the RfP.

Officials confirmed that the UAE based company started its commercial production in 2014 and till date does not have a lot of orders to indicate that it has the capacity to produce 93,895 CQBs. Adding, “This, in turn will also impact the life cycle of the weapon as the company has no previous data to establish the reliability of the CQB.”

As has been reported earlier, the procurement of 93,895 CQB for the Indian Army had run into rough weather, when after stiff evaluations two companies — Caracal of the UAE and S&T Motiv of South Korea —had been declared non-compliant by a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier.

This left Sig Sauer of the US, Kanpur-based MKU with French company Thales in the race.

Caracal of the UAE and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea were competing for this deal. It may be recalled that the Embassy of South Korea in New Delhi had protested against being declared non compliant in spite of meeting all the requirements laid down in the request for proposal.

The nine member team had gone to facilities of the competing companies before being invited for the extensive trials in India for testing with the Indian ammunition and in different terrains and temperature.

Representatives of the S&T Motiv, producers of small arms for the last four decades were part of the delegation when South Korean President Moon Jae-in had visited India in July. The company had offered to transfer technology to produce the CQBs under Make in India initiative when the defence minister of that country had visited close on the heels of President Moon Jae-in.

@Milspec @Hellfire @randomradio @Ashwin

Suggestion : we need to add an angry emoji!!

 

[_Anonymous_]

AND AGAIN....

Thanks to @Abingdonboy for the find!

Indian Army will have to wait some more, fresh RfP to be issued for replacement of outdated Insas by close-quarter carbines
By: Huma Siddiqui | Published: November 20, 2018 6:00 PM

Despite efforts of the Indian Army to fast track the procurement of small arms, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is considering to issue a fresh request for proposal (RfP) for the procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle carbines (CQB), a deal worth $553.33 mn.

The Indian Army which has been trying for long time to replace age-old ‘INSAS’ rifles which has reliability issues, has so far failed in finding the right replacement either from foreign OEMs or from the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

After receiving a series of complaints against Caracal of the UAE which was shortlisted as the lowest bidders for the CQBs, from the other bidders including French Company Thales and S&T Motiv of South Korea, the MoD is mulling on cancelling the previous RfP.

As has been reported earlier by FE, a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier has been receiving complaints regarding non compliance of Caracal of UAE.

The UAE Company has failed to submit its response as per the format of the commercial bid and the amount of Rs 70 crore was not reflected in the bid format which is used for determination of L1 vendor. Concerns have also been expressed to the nine member committee about the ability of Caracal to supply 96,000 weapons within a period of 12 months as required under the RfP.

Officials confirmed that the UAE based company started its commercial production in 2014 and till date does not have a lot of orders to indicate that it has the capacity to produce 93,895 CQBs. Adding, “This, in turn will also impact the life cycle of the weapon as the company has no previous data to establish the reliability of the CQB.”

As has been reported earlier, the procurement of 93,895 CQB for the Indian Army had run into rough weather, when after stiff evaluations two companies — Caracal of the UAE and S&T Motiv of South Korea —had been declared non-compliant by a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier.

This left Sig Sauer of the US, Kanpur-based MKU with French company Thales in the race.

Caracal of the UAE and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea were competing for this deal. It may be recalled that the Embassy of South Korea in New Delhi had protested against being declared non compliant in spite of meeting all the requirements laid down in the request for proposal.

The nine member team had gone to facilities of the competing companies before being invited for the extensive trials in India for testing with the Indian ammunition and in different terrains and temperature.

Representatives of the S&T Motiv, producers of small arms for the last four decades were part of the delegation when South Korean President Moon Jae-in had visited India in July. The company had offered to transfer technology to produce the CQBs under Make in India initiative when the defence minister of that country had visited close on the heels of President Moon Jae-in.

@Milspec @Hellfire @randomradio @Ashwin

Why hasn't our JVPC made the cut?