Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
- Thread starter Parthu
- Start date
Well it appears the IA now has 7.62x39mm (Kalashnikovs) in sight. I'm saying this here and now - not a fan of this choice. For counter-insurgency forces that could routinely end up in urban combat environments with engagement ranges not exceeding 300 meters, the AK is a good platform. But for the infantry we probably need rifles that are effective out to 500 meters approx. From what I know, after about 250-300 mts, the 7.62x39 starts dropping like crazy, it loses too much velocity which means accuracy at farther ranges is doubtful as opposed to a round like even the existing 5.56x45, let alone the 7.62x51.
Credit: gundata.org
Never thought I'd say this but...I'm hoping this tender gets cancelled/forgotten about like the dozen tenders before it. I've a real reason to believe there is possibly a Russian angle at work here. I see no reason otherwise why the infantry which might be needed to engage in combat at ranges often exceeding 350-400 meters would want the Kalashnikov 7.62 calibre.
@Milspec @Hellfire @Abingdonboy
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If the second caliber is 7.62x51Nato , then intermediate caliber as 7.62x39 won't be the worst thing. Funny thingis 6.8spc or a 6.5gren would replace all four, 5.56N, 7.62N, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54R.Well it appears the IA now has 7.62x39mm (Kalashnikovs) in sight. I'm saying this here and now - not a fan of this choice. For counter-insurgency forces that could routinely end up in urban combat environments with engagement ranges not exceeding 300 meters, the AK is a good platform. But for the infantry we probably need rifles that are effective out to 500 meters approx. From what I know, after about 250-300 mts, the 7.62x39 starts dropping like crazy, it loses too much velocity which means accuracy at farther ranges is doubtful as opposed to a round like even the existing 5.56x45, let alone the 7.62x51.
Credit: gundata.org
Never thought I'd say this but...I'm hoping this tender gets cancelled/forgotten about like the dozen tenders before it. I've a real reason to believe there is possibly a Russian angle at work here. I see no reason otherwise why the infantry which might be needed to engage in combat at ranges often exceeding 350-400 meters would want the Kalashnikov 7.62 calibre.
@Milspec @Hellfire @Abingdonboy
Under duress, sighting in and follow up shots at 500 yards is difficult on an AK compared to a machined modern platform built to perform at 500 yards like a SCAR, 416/417, CZ Bren or a well made AR platform. A 308 can theoretically can touch 800 yards, but it wont do so consistently in combat conditions, same goes for AK it can do 500 even 600 yards but consistent reproducible results from regular soldiers who do not get enough range time is quite doubtful.
The search for an assault rifle
by Sandeep Unnithan
The defence ministry recently nixed a proposal for a joint venture between Russia's Kalashnikov Concern-which makes the iconic assault rifle-and the Adani group. The MoD, instead, wants the rifle to be made by one of the state-owned ordnance factories for which it is holding talks with the Russian government.
The proposal to build the AK-103, a more modern version of the AK-47, at one of the ordnance factories was discussed during defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman's visit to Russia in April. A formal intergovernmental agreement to licence- produce the rifles is likely to be inked when Prime Minister Narendra Modi meets Russian president Vladimir Putin at the India-Russia annual bilateral summit to be held in India later this year.
Last week, the army announced its intent to place one of the largest rifle orders in the world-650,000 rifles to replace the older INSAS and legacy AK-47 type rifles. The army's Request for Information (RFI) specifies a new assault rifle chambered for the 7.62 mm x 39 mm bullet, the same used by the AK-47 and its newer variant, the AK-103.
Russia's Kalashnikov Concern, meanwhile, has unsuccessfully tried to set up a gun assembly plant in Gujarat with the private sector since 2014. It wanted the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to provide components for these rifles, to be assembled by a private partner.
The proposal was forwarded to the OFB in 2015. It was shot down by the MoD's Directorate of Defence Production (DoDP) on procedural grounds. The DoDP felt the proposal not only bypassed Rosoboronexport, Russia's state-owned arms trading firm that India deals with, but also fair competition norms.
The MoD now wants the AK-103 to be produced in one of the three rifle factories at Ishapore, Kanpur or Tiruchirappalli. Production lines at these factories can make 30,000 rifles each year, but are currently idle for the first time in nearly two decades as production of the indigenous INSAS has stopped.
OFB officials say the stamped-metal receiver body can easily be manufactured at their factory with no additional investments in plant and machinery. India is one of the world's largest users of AK-type rifles for its military, police and paramilitary forces, but few of them are made at the Kalashnikov Concern. Indian agencies have opted for cheaper AK-type rifles from former Warsaw Pact countries-an estimated 400,000 rifles have been purchased from a Bulgarian firm over the past decade.
The search for an assault rifle
@Milspec @Hellfire @Abingdonboy @randomradio @vstol Jockey @Ashwin
++++
Let this whole thing sink in for a moment. This is probably the 3rd or 4th time the Army switched its requirements (from the original multi-caliber requirement, to a split between 7.62x51 and 5.56x45, to the 7.62x39mm now), and when the RFI is in possibly the worst shape it can be (the AK round is markedly worse than the existing 5.56 as the range increases, and additionally, OFB grabs all the production and private sector gets nothing), it seems it will finally get through.
I can't tell how seriously disappointed I am in the Army and MoD for this. Without a doubt, this is either Ordnance Factories lobby getting the better of MoD (producing AK requires least changes, if any at all, to OFB infrastructure), or Russian lobby getting the better of them, or a combination of the two.
With the Army being the ultimate net loser as it gets the worst possible gun (even a new 5.56 would have been better than an AK at the ranges where regular infantry is expected to fight).
Now the best I can hope for is that we at least go for the new modernized AK-103M (with longer rails integrated into dust cover instead of small offset rail at a height), collapsible telescopic stock, ergonomic grip, among other improvements). If we select the vanilla AK-103 (which MARCOS and other services already use), that'll be double disappointment for me.
AK-103M
Where is CAATSA when you need it?
by Sandeep Unnithan
The defence ministry recently nixed a proposal for a joint venture between Russia's Kalashnikov Concern-which makes the iconic assault rifle-and the Adani group. The MoD, instead, wants the rifle to be made by one of the state-owned ordnance factories for which it is holding talks with the Russian government.
The proposal to build the AK-103, a more modern version of the AK-47, at one of the ordnance factories was discussed during defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman's visit to Russia in April. A formal intergovernmental agreement to licence- produce the rifles is likely to be inked when Prime Minister Narendra Modi meets Russian president Vladimir Putin at the India-Russia annual bilateral summit to be held in India later this year.
Last week, the army announced its intent to place one of the largest rifle orders in the world-650,000 rifles to replace the older INSAS and legacy AK-47 type rifles. The army's Request for Information (RFI) specifies a new assault rifle chambered for the 7.62 mm x 39 mm bullet, the same used by the AK-47 and its newer variant, the AK-103.
Russia's Kalashnikov Concern, meanwhile, has unsuccessfully tried to set up a gun assembly plant in Gujarat with the private sector since 2014. It wanted the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to provide components for these rifles, to be assembled by a private partner.
The proposal was forwarded to the OFB in 2015. It was shot down by the MoD's Directorate of Defence Production (DoDP) on procedural grounds. The DoDP felt the proposal not only bypassed Rosoboronexport, Russia's state-owned arms trading firm that India deals with, but also fair competition norms.
The MoD now wants the AK-103 to be produced in one of the three rifle factories at Ishapore, Kanpur or Tiruchirappalli. Production lines at these factories can make 30,000 rifles each year, but are currently idle for the first time in nearly two decades as production of the indigenous INSAS has stopped.
OFB officials say the stamped-metal receiver body can easily be manufactured at their factory with no additional investments in plant and machinery. India is one of the world's largest users of AK-type rifles for its military, police and paramilitary forces, but few of them are made at the Kalashnikov Concern. Indian agencies have opted for cheaper AK-type rifles from former Warsaw Pact countries-an estimated 400,000 rifles have been purchased from a Bulgarian firm over the past decade.
The search for an assault rifle
@Milspec @Hellfire @Abingdonboy @randomradio @vstol Jockey @Ashwin
++++
Let this whole thing sink in for a moment. This is probably the 3rd or 4th time the Army switched its requirements (from the original multi-caliber requirement, to a split between 7.62x51 and 5.56x45, to the 7.62x39mm now), and when the RFI is in possibly the worst shape it can be (the AK round is markedly worse than the existing 5.56 as the range increases, and additionally, OFB grabs all the production and private sector gets nothing), it seems it will finally get through.
I can't tell how seriously disappointed I am in the Army and MoD for this. Without a doubt, this is either Ordnance Factories lobby getting the better of MoD (producing AK requires least changes, if any at all, to OFB infrastructure), or Russian lobby getting the better of them, or a combination of the two.
With the Army being the ultimate net loser as it gets the worst possible gun (even a new 5.56 would have been better than an AK at the ranges where regular infantry is expected to fight).
Now the best I can hope for is that we at least go for the new modernized AK-103M (with longer rails integrated into dust cover instead of small offset rail at a height), collapsible telescopic stock, ergonomic grip, among other improvements). If we select the vanilla AK-103 (which MARCOS and other services already use), that'll be double disappointment for me.
AK-103M
Where is CAATSA when you need it?
The search for an assault rifle
by Sandeep Unnithan
The defence ministry recently nixed a proposal for a joint venture between Russia's Kalashnikov Concern-which makes the iconic assault rifle-and the Adani group. The MoD, instead, wants the rifle to be made by one of the state-owned ordnance factories for which it is holding talks with the Russian government.
The proposal to build the AK-103, a more modern version of the AK-47, at one of the ordnance factories was discussed during defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman's visit to Russia in April. A formal intergovernmental agreement to licence- produce the rifles is likely to be inked when Prime Minister Narendra Modi meets Russian president Vladimir Putin at the India-Russia annual bilateral summit to be held in India later this year.
Last week, the army announced its intent to place one of the largest rifle orders in the world-650,000 rifles to replace the older INSAS and legacy AK-47 type rifles. The army's Request for Information (RFI) specifies a new assault rifle chambered for the 7.62 mm x 39 mm bullet, the same used by the AK-47 and its newer variant, the AK-103.
Russia's Kalashnikov Concern, meanwhile, has unsuccessfully tried to set up a gun assembly plant in Gujarat with the private sector since 2014. It wanted the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to provide components for these rifles, to be assembled by a private partner.
The proposal was forwarded to the OFB in 2015. It was shot down by the MoD's Directorate of Defence Production (DoDP) on procedural grounds. The DoDP felt the proposal not only bypassed Rosoboronexport, Russia's state-owned arms trading firm that India deals with, but also fair competition norms.
The MoD now wants the AK-103 to be produced in one of the three rifle factories at Ishapore, Kanpur or Tiruchirappalli. Production lines at these factories can make 30,000 rifles each year, but are currently idle for the first time in nearly two decades as production of the indigenous INSAS has stopped.
OFB officials say the stamped-metal receiver body can easily be manufactured at their factory with no additional investments in plant and machinery. India is one of the world's largest users of AK-type rifles for its military, police and paramilitary forces, but few of them are made at the Kalashnikov Concern. Indian agencies have opted for cheaper AK-type rifles from former Warsaw Pact countries-an estimated 400,000 rifles have been purchased from a Bulgarian firm over the past decade.
The search for an assault rifle
@Milspec @Hellfire @Abingdonboy @randomradio @vstol Jockey @Ashwin
++++
Let this whole thing sink in for a moment. This is probably the 3rd or 4th time the Army switched its requirements (from the original multi-caliber requirement, to a split between 7.62x51 and 5.56x45, to the 7.62x39mm now), and when the RFI is in possibly the worst shape it can be (the AK round is markedly worse than the existing 5.56 as the range increases, and additionally, OFB grabs all the production and private sector gets nothing), it seems it will finally get through.
I can't tell how seriously disappointed I am in the Army and MoD for this. Without a doubt, this is either Ordnance Factories lobby getting the better of MoD (producing AK requires least changes, if any at all, to OFB infrastructure), or Russian lobby getting the better of them, or a combination of the two.
With the Army being the ultimate net loser as it gets the worst possible gun (even a new 5.56 would have been better than an AK at the ranges where regular infantry is expected to fight).
Now the best I can hope for is that we at least go for the new modernized AK-103M (with longer rails integrated into dust cover instead of small offset rail at a height), collapsible telescopic stock, ergonomic grip, among other improvements). If we select the vanilla AK-103 (which MARCOS and other services already use), that'll be double disappointment for me.
AK-103M
Where is CAATSA when you need it?
This is being bought for the Rashtriya and Assam Rifles for COIN. This has nothing to do with the infantry rifle tender for 7.62x51mm, which is a separate process.
650,000 rifles for CI units? Yeah, no.
This is the new RFI which was issued recently for 7.62x39mm rifles for infantry. This is however separate from the Fast Track Purchase whose winner is yet to be determined.
AFAIK, there's no relation. This AK-103 contract is for a smaller batch of rifles for COIN.
The FTP is for the new x51mm rifles. And the tender that will follow this FTP will come up next, for x51mm as well. The RFP for the FTP is already out. And the RFP for the Big Tamale will only be out in December or even the next year.
There was a separate RFI for x39mm, which I suppose was withdrawn and IA opted for a direct purchase via GTG with Russia. That's the AK-103.
Basically--
7.62x39mm GTG - AK-103 obviously - OFB - COIN
7.62x51mm FTP - foreign - 72,400 - import - frontline
7.62x51mm tender - foreign - 1.8L - import/private industry - frontline
7.62x51mm tender - domestic - 5.5L - OFB (25%) + private industry (75%) - support
Procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle carbines for Indian Army, a deal worth $553.33 Mn runs into rough weather
The empowered committee had visited all these companies for evaluation of carbines and conducted both physical and firing evaluation to verify lethality, reliability and accuracy.
Procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle (CQB) carbines for the Indian Army in a deal worth $553.33 million has run into rough weather. After staff evaluation, two companies — Caracal of the UAE and S&T Motiv of South Korea —have been declared non-complaint by a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier.
Sig Sauer of the US, Kanpur-based MKU with French company Thales, Caracal of the UAE and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea were competing for this deal.
Highly-placed sources told FE that the embassy of Korea in New Delhi has written to the ministry of defence pointing out that S&T Motiv had been declared non-compliant in spite of meeting all the requirements under the request for proposal.
A senior officer told FE, “In case of non-compliance, companies are informed at the pre-trial stage. There were extensive trials in the UAE and South Korea. The two were also called for trials in India for testing with Indian ammunition.”
S&T Motiv has been producing small arms for the last four decades and has a complete range of products to meet Indian requirements. Representatives of the company were part of the Korean delegations during the visits of South Korean President Moon Jae-in in July, followed by the visit of the Korean defence minister.
Sources told FE that the Korean side had offered transfer of technology for small arms under the ‘Make in India’ initiatives. The Korean company was reportedly the most competitive in terms of pricing, compared to the three competitors — Thales of France, Sig Sauer of the US and Caracal of the UAE.
The empowered committee had visited all these companies for evaluation of carbines and conducted both physical and firing evaluation to verify lethality, reliability and accuracy.
After the successful evaluation of the products at OEM locations, a compatibility test of firing India-manufactured ammunition (OFB-manufactured) was conducted in India in the first week of August.
The Indian Army has fast-tracked procurement of small arms to ensure front-line troops are better equipped with effective and modern firearms. The Army, which has been trying to replace age-old ‘INSAS’ rifles because of faults and reliability issues, has not been successful in procuring a replacement either from foreign OEMs or from the Ordnance Factory Board.
“During the visit to various OEM locations, the committee was satisfied with the quality of weapons and their performance during trial evaluations as none of the weapons had any issues in meeting the stringent qualification criteria laid down. Certain observations to make the weapons more adaptable with Indian user have been made and the same have been agreed to by all vendors,” a source said.
Procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle carbines for Indian Army, a deal worth $553.33 mn runs into rough weather
The empowered committee had visited all these companies for evaluation of carbines and conducted both physical and firing evaluation to verify lethality, reliability and accuracy.
Procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle (CQB) carbines for the Indian Army in a deal worth $553.33 million has run into rough weather. After staff evaluation, two companies — Caracal of the UAE and S&T Motiv of South Korea —have been declared non-complaint by a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier.
Sig Sauer of the US, Kanpur-based MKU with French company Thales, Caracal of the UAE and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea were competing for this deal.
Highly-placed sources told FE that the embassy of Korea in New Delhi has written to the ministry of defence pointing out that S&T Motiv had been declared non-compliant in spite of meeting all the requirements under the request for proposal.
A senior officer told FE, “In case of non-compliance, companies are informed at the pre-trial stage. There were extensive trials in the UAE and South Korea. The two were also called for trials in India for testing with Indian ammunition.”
S&T Motiv has been producing small arms for the last four decades and has a complete range of products to meet Indian requirements. Representatives of the company were part of the Korean delegations during the visits of South Korean President Moon Jae-in in July, followed by the visit of the Korean defence minister.
Sources told FE that the Korean side had offered transfer of technology for small arms under the ‘Make in India’ initiatives. The Korean company was reportedly the most competitive in terms of pricing, compared to the three competitors — Thales of France, Sig Sauer of the US and Caracal of the UAE.
The empowered committee had visited all these companies for evaluation of carbines and conducted both physical and firing evaluation to verify lethality, reliability and accuracy.
After the successful evaluation of the products at OEM locations, a compatibility test of firing India-manufactured ammunition (OFB-manufactured) was conducted in India in the first week of August.
The Indian Army has fast-tracked procurement of small arms to ensure front-line troops are better equipped with effective and modern firearms. The Army, which has been trying to replace age-old ‘INSAS’ rifles because of faults and reliability issues, has not been successful in procuring a replacement either from foreign OEMs or from the Ordnance Factory Board.
“During the visit to various OEM locations, the committee was satisfied with the quality of weapons and their performance during trial evaluations as none of the weapons had any issues in meeting the stringent qualification criteria laid down. Certain observations to make the weapons more adaptable with Indian user have been made and the same have been agreed to by all vendors,” a source said.
Procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle carbines for Indian Army, a deal worth $553.33 mn runs into rough weather
Go to Poland, negotiate for domestic production of the MSBS 7.62S, and enjoy your new rifle... please.
It's a political deal though. And the AK-103 meets requirements.
The Polish will have to offer it.
I believe you got it wrong and are following the older RFIs and procurement plans.
First of all, the 7.62x39mm RFI (released only last month) is for 6.5L rifles which clearly shows that its not just for CI units, but for infantry at large. I've attached the RFI below.
I too believe that the FTP purchase for 72k rifles is to be 7.62x51mm, although looking at how Thales Australia and S&T Motiv were listed as contenders (which do not make any assault rifle in 7.62x51mm to the best of my knowledge), I can't help but think there was actually no calibre restriction for the FTP purchase. But for simplicity's sake (and given the possible victor which is likely to be IWI), let's say we're going for a 7.62x51mm rifle in the FTP. Note that these numbers (72k rifles) actually suit the requirements of CI.
If 6.5L rifles of 7.62x39mm are bought (which is what the new RFI calls for), then there is no more space for foreign-domestic 7.62x51 rifles. That procurement plan has apparently been trashed and is no longer what IA wants.
Then it's possible the 7.62x51 became x39, and the domestic option was removed from contention. But this has nothing to do with AK-103 anyway. Probably why the OFB is getting the AK deal. So probably no more x51.
Hell, this leads to the question, is the FTP process for the AR still alive? The FTP + 5.5L x51 rifles was the initial RFI early this year. So if that's given way to 6.5L x39 rifles instead in August, then it's possible even the FTP is dead.
As for Thales and Motiv, if you are referring to Rick's article, it's referring to the carbine requirement. 5.56x45mm.
Procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle carbines for Indian Army, a deal worth $553.33 Mn runs into rough weather
The empowered committee had visited all these companies for evaluation of carbines and conducted both physical and firing evaluation to verify lethality, reliability and accuracy.
Procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle (CQB) carbines for the Indian Army in a deal worth $553.33 million has run into rough weather. After staff evaluation, two companies — Caracal of the UAE and S&T Motiv of South Korea —have been declared non-complaint by a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier.
Sig Sauer of the US, Kanpur-based MKU with French company Thales, Caracal of the UAE and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea were competing for this deal.
Highly-placed sources told FE that the embassy of Korea in New Delhi has written to the ministry of defence pointing out that S&T Motiv had been declared non-compliant in spite of meeting all the requirements under the request for proposal.
A senior officer told FE, “In case of non-compliance, companies are informed at the pre-trial stage. There were extensive trials in the UAE and South Korea. The two were also called for trials in India for testing with Indian ammunition.”
S&T Motiv has been producing small arms for the last four decades and has a complete range of products to meet Indian requirements. Representatives of the company were part of the Korean delegations during the visits of South Korean President Moon Jae-in in July, followed by the visit of the Korean defence minister.
Sources told FE that the Korean side had offered transfer of technology for small arms under the ‘Make in India’ initiatives. The Korean company was reportedly the most competitive in terms of pricing, compared to the three competitors — Thales of France, Sig Sauer of the US and Caracal of the UAE.
The empowered committee had visited all these companies for evaluation of carbines and conducted both physical and firing evaluation to verify lethality, reliability and accuracy.
After the successful evaluation of the products at OEM locations, a compatibility test of firing India-manufactured ammunition (OFB-manufactured) was conducted in India in the first week of August.
The Indian Army has fast-tracked procurement of small arms to ensure front-line troops are better equipped with effective and modern firearms. The Army, which has been trying to replace age-old ‘INSAS’ rifles because of faults and reliability issues, has not been successful in procuring a replacement either from foreign OEMs or from the Ordnance Factory Board.
“During the visit to various OEM locations, the committee was satisfied with the quality of weapons and their performance during trial evaluations as none of the weapons had any issues in meeting the stringent qualification criteria laid down. Certain observations to make the weapons more adaptable with Indian user have been made and the same have been agreed to by all vendors,” a source said.
Procurement of 93,895 close-quarter-battle carbines for Indian Army, a deal worth $553.33 mn runs into rough weather
This means the possible contenders from Thales is the F-90CQB (360 variant)...
...and the offer from SIG Sauer is most likely a short barrel SIG516:
What requirement the AK-103 ultimately fills remains to be seen. But more than likely it is for the 6.5L rifles.
Either way, the problem remains because the issue is not with the gun itself but with the calibre. Any 7.62x39 shot from any rifle exerts similar ballistic characteristics, as any viable rifle which uses x39 finds its lineage back to the AK family without fail.
AFAIK, its still alive. There was even some noise recently about IWI Tavor 7 being declared best poised to get contract.
I'm referring to the FTP rifle requirement, which also had those two companies in fray.
"The RFPs were given to 12 companies out of which after extensive trials, only three companies with the OEMs: Punj Lloyd working with IWI, Israel; Kanpur-based MKU with Thales, Australia, and Caracal of UAE; and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea have been shortlisted,” one of the sources said."
Centre shortlists 3 firms for buying assault rifles for army
For the AK-103, they are talking about signing the contract. For the 6.5L requirement, they are talking about releasing the RFP in December. Hence two different programs. The AK-103 thing has been going on for a long time now.
There was this MHA tender for 20k rifles where the AK-103 was competing.
Russia’s state arms seller quits India’s tenders for over 20,000 automatic rifles
It's possible this has combined with the army's requirement and become some sort of a combined arms GTG deal.
This new tender for x39 came out only last week. It says Aug 31st in the IA website.
Could very well be dead already.
Let us talk little more about Caracal, South Korean Rifle and Israeli Ace. One of these is going to be indian Army front line soldier rifle for next generation.
Although, a fake news item says that Caracal and South Korean rifle has been declared non compliant. But I do not believe it. An arms merchant in Delhi is pushing for the Israeli rifle.
Although, I am not an arms expert but whatever I read about Caracal that it is an admixture of German and American designs and technology, it probably is a better design. It is also priced much cheaper.
Although, a fake news item says that Caracal and South Korean rifle has been declared non compliant. But I do not believe it. An arms merchant in Delhi is pushing for the Israeli rifle.
Although, I am not an arms expert but whatever I read about Caracal that it is an admixture of German and American designs and technology, it probably is a better design. It is also priced much cheaper.