Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Milspec]

If the AK203 is better than the INSAS and 7.62x39 is better than 5.56x45 , then for the moment, untill we do equip our strike corps with 7.62NATO rifles, i think its fine.

Also, anything on the cost of rifles yet to be manufactured at Amethi?

The only thing is that 7.62x39 is not better than 5.56x45N.

7.62x39 is different , it can do things that the 5.56 cannot and vice versa, key point being different is not always better. And a clue lies in the SF brandishing those Tavor's and M4's, all chambered in 5.56 Nato.

Now about the 7.62x51N, I am a bit ambivalent about it. Yes it has the stopping power, it has the range and it has the versatility; but it is a horrible round for use in automatic fire. Another aspect is, 7.62x 51N needs quite a bit of shooting discipline, it's heavy, and thus will have weight penalty. For DMR and MMG/LMG operators it's well and good, but in my opinion positioning a full size rifle round in a assault rifle role, defeats the purpose of an assault rifle which is meant to be chambered in an intermediate cartridge.

The reason I keep yapping about these three cartridges, is because I have had the opportunity to practice with all three of them, and my own conclusion is 5.56x45 nato has the right mix of accuracy, energy, and ease of use among the three cartridges.
I have shot the 6.5 gren although I don't own one yet to have any definitive remarks on it's shooting characteristics. Indian Army went away from the 7.62 nato round chambered FAL, and took a pragmatic step of introducing a new round in 5.56Nato, going back to 7.62x51 would be odd at this point. I really hope we havent seen the last of 6.5gren/6.8spc yet.

 

[Parthu]

The only thing is that 7.62x39 is not better than 5.56x45N.

7.62x39 is different , it can do things that the 5.56 cannot and vice versa, key point being different is not always better. And a clue lies in the SF brandishing those Tavor's and M4's, all chambered in 5.56 Nato.

Now about the 7.62x51N, I am a bit ambivalent about it. Yes it has the stopping power, it has the range and it has the versatility; but it is a horrible round for use in automatic fire. Another aspect is, 7.62x 51N needs quite a bit of shooting discipline, it's heavy, and thus will have weight penalty. For DMR and MMG/LMG operators it's well and good, but in my opinion positioning a full size rifle round in a assault rifle role, defeats the purpose of an assault rifle which is meant to be chambered in an intermediate cartridge.

Once the factor of how many rounds can be carried on person comes in, agreed, but in terms of the rifle itself, at empty, the 7.62 SIG 716 is all of some 200 grams heavier than the 5.56 INSAS The kind of weight increase experienced by shifting from a run-of-the-mill AR-15 to an AR-10 won't be seen here (which would typically be in the range of +/- a kilo).

The reason I keep yapping about these three cartridges, is because I have had the opportunity to practice with all three of them, and my own conclusion is 5.56x45 nato has the right mix of accuracy, energy, and ease of use among the three cartridges.
I have shot the 6.5 gren although I don't own one yet to have any definitive remarks on it's shooting characteristics. Indian Army went away from the 7.62 nato round chambered FAL, and took a pragmatic step of introducing a new round in 5.56Nato, going back to 7.62x51 would be odd at this point. I really hope we havent seen the last of 6.5gren/6.8spc yet.

With regard to the 5.56, don't lose heart. Army will still end up with some ~ 4.5 lakh new carbines in 5.56x45 (93k fast-track purchase and a tender for 360k make-in-India). It will be interesting to see who ends up using what. I do think, that a lot of it will eventually come down to the choice of the soldiers (as was the case when CI/CT troops decided in favour of AKs and ditched INSAS).

Let them get a taste of what a piston-driven AR-15 with an optic is capable of (like CAR 816).

Only further exposure to these systems will help the Army is making smarter, better decisions in the future.

 

[Milspec]

With regard to the 5.56, don't lose heart. Army will still end up with some ~ 4.5 lakh new carbines in 5.56x45 (93k fast-track purchase and a tender for 360k make-in-India). It will be interesting to see who ends up using what. I do think, that a lot of it will eventually come down to the choice of the soldiers (as was the case when CI/CT troops decided in favour of AKs and ditched INSAS).
.

Hopefuly one day, i will build those MII style

 

[Gautam]

Shit ain't right with that scope. Russian is it ? Also notice the cheek pad, didn't know SVD dragunovs had any. Is this an upgrade or something ?Wasn't there a SS-LMT update of the SVD ?

 

[Parthu]

Hopefuly one day, i will build those MII style

Hopefully

By the way, I wonder what's holding up the fast track deal for carbines. Last I heard the ejected competitors had voiced concerns over Caracal emerging L-1, for sure something's up, otherwise it would've been signed and sealed by now...

Anyway....

...SOON....

.....

 

[Parthu]

View attachment 4867
Shit ain't right with that scope. Russian is it ? Also notice the cheek pad, didn't know SVD dragunovs had any. Is this an upgrade or something ?Wasn't there a SS-LMT update of the SVD ?

It's the PSO-1 that comes standard with SVD. There seems to be a loosely tacked-on sunshade extension (I'm guessing).

Cheek rests are not new on IA-operated SVDs...

BTW, you can see the extension on the objective lens in this pic too ^^, but it seems securely in place here.

The SS-LMT upgrade kit was an extensive rework of all furniture (handguard, stock, grip etc.), this is not it. Besides, it's only an offer, no hint so far that IA adopted it in any capacity. SS-LMT also had offers for kits for AKs, haven't seen any of those in service, either.

 

[Gautam]

Hopefuly one day, i will build those MII style

Realistically sir, what are the challenges you are likely to face should you chose to go own that path ? It just seems to me that an awful lot of good quality firearms expertise is just floating around in the USA and our entities both public an private are unable/averse to taping it ? Why is that ? There are a lot of countries out there that built good guns by hiring Americans, I mean look at Caracal(OK that guy was German, but you see where I am going). Why not just hire experts to build expertise instead of recycling the same old designs ?

 

[Parthu]

Ab ye kya hai...

 

[Gautam]

Ab ye kya hai...

Where did you get that ? It says its a 7.62*51 N assault rifle, but look at that magazine. It looks like a 7.62*39 to me.
"Foreign client","pilot orders" ---what, what what?
"new generation""export ready"---get outta here. How come all our "new" rifle look like poor copies of AK-something ? To be fair a lot manufacturers make rehashed versions of the same old design but at least they try improving on it. Why do we always make copies of Kalashnikovs and fail, I mean make copies of AR-10/15 why don't you. The designs are readily available, you have manufacturing facilities and there is a huge industry waiting to support you. I don't know, the firearms scene in India just infuriates me.

 

[Parthu]

Where did you get that ? It says its a 7.62*51 N assault rifle, but look at that magazine. It looks like a 7.62*39 to me.
"Foreign client","pilot orders" ---what, what what?
"new generation""export ready"---get outta here. How come all our "new" rifle look like poor copies of AK-something ? To be fair a lot manufacturers make rehashed versions of the same old design but at least they try improving on it. Why do we always make copies of Kalashnikovs and fail, I mean make copies of AR-10/15 why don't you. The designs are readily available, you have manufacturing facilities and there is a huge industry waiting to support you. I don't know, the firearms scene in India just infuriates me.

It only appears to be a representative image. I believe, the rifle they are talking about here is the R2.

 

[Milspec]

\

Realistically sir, what are the challenges you are likely to face should you chose to go own that path ? It just seems to me that an awful lot of good quality firearms expertise is just floating around in the USA and our entities both public an private are unable/averse to taping it ? Why is that ? There are a lot of countries out there that built good guns by hiring Americans, I mean look at Caracal(OK that guy was German, but you see where I am going). Why not just hire experts to build expertise instead of recycling the same old designs ?

Challenges are primarily red tape across the board, for defence mfg license, procurement of restricted items, more redtape for logistics license, more redtape for export licenses, more red tape for entering competitive bidding or direct procurement for Military and Law enforcement, low and mid level corruption. Right now the biggest challenge is just setting up a firearms business here, once that is done then I can think for "endgame";

 

[Gautam]

\


Challenges are primarily red tape across the board, for defence mfg license, procurement of restricted items, more redtape for logistics license, more redtape for export licenses, more red tape for entering competitive bidding or direct procurement for Military and Law enforcement, low and mid level corruption. Right now the biggest challenge is just setting up a firearms business here, once that is done then I can think for "endgame";

Sure there is red tape, there is always red tape. This is India after all. I understand situations are unlikely to change for the better quickly, but hasn't anything changed as far as licences and stuff in the last 5 years ? I just saw a lot of established companies(Tata, Kalyani, Mahindra, L&T et al) and
startups(Tonbo being most noticeable) getting def mfg/testing licence and that led me to think things are changing. Then came JV like SS-LMT which could in my view revolutionize the firearms scene in India. That got me thinking maybe private entrepreneurs can do the same. Remember Tonbo Imaging founder was originally employed in some American company. That's where my question came from, if we could get a small arms analogue to tonbo, maybe we don't have to be export dependent for high quality small arms. For what its worth sir accept my humble submission, do give it a shot, who knows it might just work out.

 

[Gautam]

Ex Sampriti-VIII. Troops of Indian Army and Bangladesh Army planned and practiced Cordon and Search Operations(CASO) to be conducted under UN Mandate.
There are many pictures out there I just wanted to post this one. Notice the one dude with what looks like a hydration pack on his back(low right) ? So camel packs are starting to trickle down to end users ?

Remember the old Sep 2018 tender for next generation Infantry Combat Kit(ICK) ?
https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/599/RFIICK 011018.pdf
It would seem some of the gear is starting to get out for field usage.

5th Gorkha Rifles, Ghatak platoon. Credit on pic.
The tender also talks about a 90 lts big pack. Pic included.
@Parthu sir care to add something ?

 

[Hellfire]

@Gautam

You CAN'T extrapolate equipment for Ghatak to general soldier by any stretch of imagination. The unit buys that stuff from it's training grants, Army Commanders Special Financial Powers and other heads. At times, from own Regimental Funds.

Ghataks of some units also have hand held drones and fiber optic devices. That does not make it standardized issue.

On topic, DRDO has made all that 'light weight' equipment now. OFB was handing out heavier one earlier. The light weight was being purchased from Cliffhanger India.

 

[Parthu]

Ex Sampriti-VIII. Troops of Indian Army and Bangladesh Army planned and practiced Cordon and Search Operations(CASO) to be conducted under UN Mandate.
There are many pictures out there I just wanted to post this one. Notice the one dude with what looks like a hydration pack on his back(low right) ? So camel packs are starting to trickle down to end users ?
View attachment 4914

Remember the old Sep 2018 tender for next generation Infantry Combat Kit(ICK) ?
https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/599/RFIICK 011018.pdf
It would seem some of the gear is starting to get out for field usage.
View attachment 4915
5th Gorkha Rifles, Ghatak platoon. Credit on pic.
The tender also talks about a 90 lts big pack. Pic included.
@Parthu sir care to add something ?

The first time I'd seen hydration packs on Indian forces was perhaps some 3 years ago. I can't recall the unit but I believe they were from Ghatak platoons or JAK LI, if memory serves. But like @Falcon said, none of these are to be considered standard-issue equipment for the infantry. We are still a ways off from that being the case.

As you can see from the pic above, advanced helmets like the high-cut EXFIL series from TeamWendy are in use by Ghatak units, along with such stuff like Oakley-type hard-knuckle gloves, again these are not standard issue by any means, they are purchases made at individual, battalion or regimental level.

*** Speaking of high-cut helmets...I'm seeing a lot of units across India being increasingly equipped with them, unfortunately, I'm yet to see a single unit, even a top special forces unit like MARCOS, to sport the requisite tactical communications headsets, which also provide a level of ear protection against shrapnel and perhaps non-direct hits from pistol-calibre rounds (haven't researched), to accommodate which these type of helmets (high-cut) were designed for in the first place. ***

The comm headsets seen worn by our men in the field seem anything but top-of-the-line (even for special forces), and like the one seen in the ear of the Ghatak commando who's pic you posted above, provide no ear-protection whatsoever against a variety of battlefield elements.

If we're not going to adopt such headsets, then the purpose of high-cut helmets is lost. Might as well stick with the regular ACH full-cut shell and get that extra bit of ear & side protection.

Some critical gaps remain to be filled.

 

[Gautam]

You CAN'T extrapolate equipment for Ghatak to general soldier by any stretch of imagination. The unit buys that stuff from it's training grants, Army Commanders Special Financial Powers and other heads. At times, from own Regimental Funds.

Totally agree sir, the point I was trying to make is that there are few units of the military that use hydration packs(Paras for sure, maybe Ghataks too) and those units may serve as a test bed for new equipment whether procured from home or abroad(totally my imagination). The reason why I make this suggestion is because of the SIG SAUER 716 G2 acquisition. NSG acquired it(DMR version) and probably had a lot of positive things to say about it. Then we decided to send some empowered officials abroad to do some trials and finally acquire it. Those officials probably included some Paras in them, its an army acquisition after all. Of all units, the Paras and NSG have the most extensive experience with AR style rifles, experience that was tapped into for the acquisition. Same can be said about the Caracal CAR 816 A2(although not finalised yet). A lot of firearms experts have many positives to note but almost no negatives about both the rifles chosen. Surely you can't be that discerning of a buyer if you are buying AR-10/15 or the first time, unless you have had experience with it.
Also the DRDO developed hydration pack visually seemed a lot like the one worn by the Ghatak commando. But then I have poor eyesight, what would I know.
I believe the tender for Infantry Combat Kit was for standard issue to the whole army(I could be wrong), with the Ghataks/Paras serving as test bed suggesting design changes along the way. But I concede I know too less to draw any conclusions, I am just passing the time entertaining myself and hopefully you along the way.

 

[Gautam]

Speaking of high-cut helmets...I'm seeing a lot of units across India being increasingly equipped with them

A lot you say. May I ask for some pictures ?

As you can see from the pic above, advanced helmets like the high-cut EXFIL series from TeamWendy are in use by Ghatak units, along with such stuff like Oakley-type hard-knuckle gloves, again these are not standard issue by any means, they are purchases made at individual, battalion or regimental level.

Agreed. MKU makes High cuts right ? who else in India ? Don't we have anybody making hard-knuckle gloves in India. Are they all imports ?

I'm yet to see a single unit, even a top special forces unit like MARCOS, to sport the requisite tactical communications headsets, which also provide a level of ear protection against shrapnel and perhaps non-direct hits from pistol-calibre rounds (haven't researched), to accommodate which these type of helmets (high-cut) were designed for in the first place.

Thank God, finally somebody talked sense. So, does MKU and their ilk make any proper headsets ? I haven't seen any headsets with proper protection, not one, all headphones basically.

 

[Parthu]

Totally agree sir, the point I was trying to make is that there are few units of the military that use hydration packs(Paras for sure, maybe Ghataks too) and those units may serve as a test bed for new equipment whether procured from home or abroad(totally my imagination). The reason why I make this suggestion is because of the SIG SAUER 716 G2 acquisition. NSG acquired it(DMR version) and probably had a lot of positive things to say about it. Then we decided to send some empowered officials abroad to do some trials and finally acquire it. Those officials probably included some Paras in them, its an army acquisition after all. Of all units, the Paras and NSG have the most extensive experience with AR style rifles, experience that was tapped into for the acquisition. Same can be said about the Caracal CAR 816 A2(although not finalised yet). A lot of firearms experts have many positives to note but almost no negatives about both the rifles chosen. Surely you can't be that discerning of a buyer if you are buying AR-10/15 or the first time, unless you have had experience with it.
Also the DRDO developed hydration pack visually seemed a lot like the one worn by the Ghatak commando. But then I have poor eyesight, what would I know.
I believe the tender for Infantry Combat Kit was for standard issue to the whole army(I could be wrong), with the Ghataks/Paras serving as test bed suggesting design changes along the way. But I concede I know too less to draw any conclusions, I am just passing the time entertaining myself and hopefully you along the way.

I get what you mean, and for sure it may well be the same in more than one instance. However with regard to the SIG 716 acquisition, it was nothing but a simple matter of the SIG offer emerging as the lowest bidder in the competitive process. If by chance the IWI offer was bid lower, then we'd have bought the ACE 52...which is a basically an AK design converted to 7.62 Nato.

The deal for 72,400 battle rifles was not a case of 'nominated' supplier, unlike the Kalashnikov AK-203 deal.

A lot you say. May I ask for some pictures ?

Some from what I have on my hard disk at the moment -

MARCOS

Ghatak (same Gorkha Rifles)

SG

Agreed. MKU makes High cuts right ? who else in India ?

Yes, MKU has the HCBH on offer, but so far have not seen it in use by any unit. Don't know of anyone else - if there has to be someone, it has to be Tata Advanced Materials. But not aware of any such offering from them. Here's the MKU HCBH by the way, their product description says its meant for armored vehicle crews (for who headsets are mandatory), but when I contacted them via Twitter, they said it would be offered to SOF units as well -

Don't we have anybody making hard-knuckle gloves in India. Are they all imports ?

I doubt it. They do not appear to be branded ones. You can actually find many such gloves on sites like Amazon.in, I had recently bought a pair myself -

Thank God, finally somebody talked sense. So, does MKU and their ilk make any proper headsets ? I haven't seen any headsets with proper protection, not one, all headphones basically.

I don't think MKU has a line of products in communication systems. But if at all Special Forces want them, importing shouldn't be a problem at all - some great models are available from likes of Ops-Core and Revision Military (which already sells both Viper and Caiman-series helmets in Indian market, latter seen worn by the SG guy in the pic above):

Ops-Core RAC Headset

ComCentr2 Headset System Kit

 

[Gautam]

Thank you for the pics. SG is wearing revision, Ghatak using Team Wendy and Marcos ? What are they using ?

I get what you mean, and for sure it may well be the same in more than one instance. However with regard to the SIG 716 acquisition, it was nothing but a simple matter of the SIG offer emerging as the lowest bidder in the competitive process. If by chance the IWI offer was bid lower, then we'd have bought the ACE 52...which is a basically an AK design converted to 7.62 Nato.

The deal for 72,400 battle rifles was not a case of 'nominated' supplier, unlike the Kalashnikov AK-203 deal.

Point made.

I doubt it. They do not appear to be branded ones. You can actually find many such gloves on sites like Amazon.in, I had recently bought a pair myself

There is no crying need for branded ones anyway. By the way how much did they cost ?

I don't think MKU has a line of products in communication systems. But if at all Special Forces want them, importing shouldn't be a problem at all - some great models are available from likes of Ops-Core and Revision Military (which already sells both Viper and Caiman-series helmets in Indian market, latter seen worn by the SG guy in the pic above):

Somehow I believe the problem is in lack of understanding of underlying reasons for using a certain gear over others. As you pointed out about the lack of ear protection but adoption of high cuts runs counter to each other. I am pretty sure there would be such a problem again about adoption of sound suppressors. A lot of military units(SoF i mean) are using suppressed guns as standard issue and using subsonic ammo for stealth takedown, whereas we use un-suppressed guns as standard and suppressed for stealth. I don't think we even use subsonics at all. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Hellfire]

Totally agree sir, the point I was trying to make is that there are few units of the military that use hydration packs(Paras for sure, maybe Ghataks too) and those units may serve as a test bed for new equipment whether procured from home or abroad(totally my imagination).

The point I was making is that these are, as of yet, isolated cases. And for Paras, the webbing, as a standard issue, has been changing in the past few years only. I had posted my own photograph almost a year and half back on this forum, with due edition, with a light weight tactical vest, available in 5 PARA in those days, procured from private vendor and costing about Rs 3500 (if I recollect correctly). Even then, the standard issue did not include tactical vests.


The example of any unit under Ministry of Home (NSG here) for introduction of weapons is not appropriate either as their procurement procedure is different. You can clearly see that difference by comparing the standard issue to Indian Army against the standard issue to units under MHA (like ITBP, CRPF etc)