Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
- Thread starter Parthu
- Start date
Yes,this is what was planned.
94,000 carbine is a done deal,tender of 3,50,000 carbine under make in India is already issued.
6,50,000 AK 203 deal is also done.
72,000 sig sauer has already been done.I am almost certain,either there will be a further order to SIG under make in India or new tender for more 7.62x51mm rifles .Let's wait and watch.
If you add all the numbers,it will not make sense with respect to the Army,even the new tender of 3,50,000 carbine does not make sense with numbers.It is because all these orders are not only for the army but also for the air force,navy,CAPF etc
I don't claim to be the expert ,this is just based on sum total of information gathered through personal interaction with users, experiences shared on internet,common sense,rational thinking and my views -which are the outcome of all of these.Whatever I write,is my informed " opinion ".
SIG 716 patrol g2 7.62x51mm
Few negative points about this rifle :
1 At 4.3 kg SIG 716 Patrol G2 is a heavy rifle ,with addition of optics and other attachment the weight will further go up.
2 It is based of ar 10 platform ,being a short stroke piston it will have better reliability than a direct impingement rifle .But being an AR platform reliability will remain an issue in a heavy combat environment and harsh natural conditions of Indian battleground.Please understand when we talk of reliability, it is not about going to some range and firing 100 bullet ,we are talking about heavy combat situation where you might need to fire a lot of bullets in quick succession or active combat scenario where you might be indulge in combat situation for days in a high western temperature dessert or super cold area like siachen for an extended period of time.I will go ahead and say that I don't think this rifle would have been able to pass ,has it been subjected to typical army trials.Please do note this is a fast track procurement ,so they are surpassing all the necessary trials which take around a year.This rifle was also there in Pakistan army trials.Pakistanis did not deem it fit enough for themselves but we did.
3 From what I have watched and heard ,it has a higher recoil than the contemporary 7.62x51mm rifles.Most of the modern 7.62x51mm rifle have been able to tame the recoil,but unfortunately not this one.Please don't get me wrong, not saying it is uncontrollable ,being an ar platform and short stroke it has a manageable recoil,but there are rifles out there in 7.62x51mm that have better recoil mitigation than this.
4 SIG SAUER has been having quality issues with its rifles,just sometime back they had to issue a recall to change the hammer and trigger of their rifles.Similarly people who have bought the initial batches of 716 patrol had to face a lot of quality issues due to which it had got a bad reputation,these issue seem to have been addressed in the later batches but still we can't be sure with SIG what they are going to deliver us.
5 Don't get me wrong SIG SAUER as a company are capable of producing some high quality stuff,but then they are also equally capable of screwing things.My fear is by offering a rifle at around 990 dollar will they compromise on quality of parts ,will they screw the build quality as it's just a third world country they are supplying to.Somehow I am skeptical of SIG SAUER , the low price they are offering their rifle, that too made in USA(which have high labour charge).
6 No licence production -will have to depend on them for parts,repair.
Few positive point of the rifle.
1 Ergonomic - Beside the weight ,I don't see any ergonomic issue. Infact! being an AR platform it will offer super ergonomics to the shooter,that is given.
2 Accuracy -It has a good accuracy for a 7.62x51mm battle rifle,thanks to its free floating barrel.
3 The price at which they are offering it, is a steal as per me,if they maintain the standard of quality at which it is offered worldwide.
4 four-position gas valve will help to adjust the gas as per the preference of the shooter.
5 Hammer forged,nitride coated barrel will ensure long barrel life.
Overall it is a decent rifle ,but still there are better 7.62x51mm rifle out there.
Those who wonder how our jawans with lean and small physique would handle it,this video shows a child firing a SIG 716g2.
Great video of sig sauer 716 patrol gen 1
CARACAL 816 carbine 5.56x45mm.
Positives
1 In theory everything is great about this rifle/carbine .Since it is supposed to be an improvement over revered HK 416 and SIG 516 we can expect great things from this rifle.
2 It has backing of some big names in the firearm industry.
3 CARACAL is still a young company,they have a reputation to make .They will try to deliver their best as this deal has the potential to establish them as a serious player in arms manufacturing.Even if they screw things up,they will be more than willing to rectify it as per me.
4 Being a 5.56x45mm AR ,I don't think it will have any major issue as AR platform is to 5.56x45mm ,as AK platform to 7.62x39mm. Even the worst will be good enough to work.
Negatives
1 There is no large scale deployment of this rifle,nor has it seen substantial active combat till now.Things could go either way ,it can turn out to be a dud with massive issues or huge superstar on field.Since it has not undergone the grind of our traditional army trials, due to fast track procurement,not too sure of the rifle and amazed how Army and government and undertaking the risk of skipping trials.
2 Huge suspense on its reliability,but I expect it to perform better than the m4 in service with the special forces.
3 no licence production,costly spares and support.
These two are my favorite rifles for 7.62x51mm. Ideally army should have called vendors from all over the world ,carried out trials for 8-12 months.Shortlist the best rifles among them , then finalize the rifle which offers the "most value for money" (*not cheap or L1) deal, for mass production with complete TOT.
My top 3 preference for 7.62x51mm rifle are (in numerical order)
1 SCAR-H
When it comes to 7.62x51mm battle rifle ,this is "the" holy grail.Without a doubt one of the best out there.
- Is it the most accurate ?Certainly not ,many AR based rifles are more accurate than this ,but the SCAR- H is very accurate rifle in itself.It is certainly above average when it comes to accuracy.
- Extremely reliable rifle
- For a 7.62x51mm battle rifles it is very lightweight at 3.9 kg ,compared to insas at 4.15.
- Even though it is a FAT rifle ,it is very ergonomic to shoulder and shoot.
- Its biggest advantage is recoil mitigation ,despite a heavy cartridge like 7.62x51mm ,the recoil is very soft. It is certainly more than a 5.56x45mm ar, but still very light compared to other rifles shooting 7.62x51mm .
- I have personally talked to few people who have used it ,and they were all praise for it.
- It was the winner of Pakistani military rifle trials.
- It is not a perfect rifle by any means ,it comes with it own set of disadvantages.Such as the barrel is sensitive to high heat,it failed the cook off test in Pakistani army trials.Plus when trialed in the Thar desert it did showed some problems.
- It is very expensive,I don't know what price FN would have quoted to us ,anything over $1400 would have not make sense,as SIG 716 at $990 offer better value for the money.
- Nonetheless , a very good battle rifle overall and my first choice.
- Do note that FNH did not participated in our rifle trials ,even though they did participated in weapon acquisition of our special forces.
I don't know the exact reason behind it ,but it seems -
Despite of the attractive numbers,our weapon procurement is a mess.We don't have a good image worldwide when it comes to efficient process for big tenders.That's why most of the companies seem to have skipped our trials .FN chose Pakistan over India,this tells you a lot about the mess our arm procurement is.
FN do have a bad blood with India ,when it comes to acquiring rifles.Last time we had selected FAL as our standard issue rifle,but soon MOD realize that the cost of setting up a factory and importing machinery and tooling from FN is turning out too costly for their taste.So ARDE on instruction from the government reverse engineered the British L1A1 SLR ,which resulted in 1A1 slr rifle.This did save us the money but was completely unethical on our part.
2 My second choice is galil ace 7.62x51mm, also know as ACE 52.
- It is a simple and reliable rifle ,being based on long stroke piston.It is known for its ability to feed and shoot ammo of varying quality without any problem.
- It would have been very simple for our troops to operate as the firing and maintenance mechanism is very similar to AK/INSAS.
- Despite being a 7.62x51mm rifle ,with long stroke piston it has a very manageable recoil.Most of the person rate the recoil similar to an AKM ,which is very light for a battle rifle.
- At a weight of 3.6 kg ,I will term it as light weight.
- It has got a great accuracy for a battle rifle,it is certainly not sub MOA rifle but has good enough accuracy for combat.
- Personally I don't like the looks of this rifle.
- IWI quoted $1600 for it,nearly double the quote of SIG SAUER.I feel IWI was trying to fleece us with this price.Have seen civilian in US take this for $1000 during sale,being a large order they should have priced it competitively.
3 Any AR type rifle or Tavor 7.
The rifles which I would avoid are
CZ bren - It is yet to evolve and refine,it faced many glitches during Pakistani army trials,right now it is not a polished product.
ARX 200 - Does not seem to be a reliable rifle,also have many other issues right now.
MSBS - Polish rifle ,in service with Polish armed forces in 5,56x45mm.Not much is known about it outside Poland .It was involved in the rifle trials in France and Estonia,but was not selected in either of the trials,does come in 7.62x51mm.
HK 417 - HK will not sell to non NATO countries ,no point discussing it.However CARCAL 817,SIG SAUER 716 patrol are improved version of HK 417.
G3 - It is outdated in today's time,by outdated I don't mean it can't kill,it definitely can! but it is too long,heavy rifle which will cause ergonomic issue in today's fast moving battlefield.It also has very high recoil ,all this will cause early fatigue and wear out of the solider.Pakistan do realize this and they had carried out trials to replace it.Where the FN scar H was finalized for production.However that deal is struck right now ,as Pakistan is undergoing a severe financial crisis.Their PM is touring all over world to collect enough money to run the country.However somehow they will manage and I believe Pakistan army will find a way to finance the purchase of the new rifle.Pakistan army officers were seen trying out msbs rifles recently,let's see which one they will decide finally.I believe they will go with SCAR H,cost not withstanding they will somehow manage ,or else CZ bren (due to attractive deal/corruption) ,AK 308 have high chance as of now.
Regarding R2 rifle its operating mechanism was simple,much like ace 52 which was a good thing,but beside this not much is known about its reliability and accuracy .Army had rejected it due to heavy recoil and sound.They did come up with a new muzzle brake ,which reminded me of the SLR.It seems that it did not make the cut for the army ,that's why we are importing SIG SAUER 716 .So this project is as good as dead right now,I don't see any future for it.
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Some interesting points
Many people here think that Russians have either bribed or fooled us into buying their AK,but in reality it was our PM Modi who personally requested to Mr PUTIN for this deal during his visit to Russia.It was on his request Putin directed the Kalashnikov to enter into JV with the OFB.
AK 203 cost is $1000 for Russian armed forces ,they plan to sell it at a higher cost to other nations.If this is right then it will turn out to be more expensive than the SIG SAUR 716 we are buying.
http://www.tellerreport.com/news/--...t-rifles-in-the-global-market-.ryNPMYsVV.html
The bidding price of SIG 716 was $990 ,CAR 817 $1200 and Galil ace 52 was $1600
Indian MoD approves procurement of 72,400 SIG Sauer rifles for IA | Jane's 360
The bidding price of CAR 816 was $1150 ,SIG 516 is not known
This means that SIG had outbid its own 5.56x45mm carbine with its SIG 716 Battle rifle(which is inherently more expensive than a 5.56x45mm carbine).It shows that somehow SIG SAUER was convinced that the 7.62x51mm deal will be turn out to be more lucrative in future.(This hint at a possibility of a repeat order of large numbers)
1.Does this have a full length P-rail or standard INSAS type jugaad rail?
2. Which Magazine has this piece been taken, do post the link?
It should have P -rail as it seem to be divided into upper and lower,instead of a hinged dust cover.Although it is hard to confirm from this pic,as the charging handle latch cover the view.
This is taken from Sandeep unnithan column from Mail today.Here is the whole piece.
Here is the link
The rifle is not Sig Sauer 716 Patrol Gen 1 but the Colt 901 :
Here is the Sig Sauer 716 Patrol Gen 1 rifle :
It should have P -rail as it seem to be divided into upper and lower,instead of a hinged dust cover.Although it is hard to confirm from this pic,as the charging handle latch cover the view.
This is taken from Sandeep unnithan column from Mail today.Here is the whole piece.
View attachment 4337
Here is the link
The rifle is not Sig Sauer 716 Patrol Gen 1 but the Colt 901 :
View attachment 4338
Here is the Sig Sauer 716 Patrol Gen 1 rifle :
View attachment 4339
Hmm. Thanks
Isn't the rail under the handguard too small?
Or the handguard is removable like the galil ace?
It should have P -rail as it seem to be divided into upper and lower,instead of a hinged dust cover.Although it is hard to confirm from this pic,as the charging handle latch cover the view.
This is taken from Sandeep unnithan column from Mail today.Here is the whole piece.
View attachment 4337
Here is the link
The rifle is not Sig Sauer 716 Patrol Gen 1 but the Colt 901 :
View attachment 4338
Here is the Sig Sauer 716 Patrol Gen 1 rifle :
View attachment 4339
Yep, it's a Colt. Should've checked and compared the gas block before going with whatever Shatrujeet said.
Can't say just from the pic ,whether it has rail beneath the hand guard or not.However,I have made a detailed post about this carbine ,please go through it.I have mentioned there that much better Hand guard design were available today,and such small rail is an ergonomic issue.
This rail arrangement and handguard do remind me of the mciws ,maybe same designer involved.
When initially there was news of PM inaugurating new OFB/Kalashnikov plant in Amethi,Korwa on 28th of this month,I was confused.How can he inaugurate a plant ,when the agreement for the JV is yet to be signed,or whether he was going to lay the foundation stone.I did my research and found out this :
-Around 2005 Indian army come up with a requirement of nearly 4 lakh carbines.
-In 2006 MOD cleared the proposal of setting up a new carbine producing factory.
- Site selection committee shortlisted two location for the factory ,one a surplus land at OFB field gun factory in kanpur and second a surplus land at the HAL plant in korwa,Amethi.
-At last Korwa,Amethi was finalized for setting up of the new carbine plant in 2007,at an estimated investment of Rs 408.01 crore by October 2010.
-The foundation stone of Indian Ordnance Factory, Korwa in Amethi was laid at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Complex by Rahul Gandhi in 2008.
- New carbines and other small arms were to be produced at this plant annually.
- Around 2014 the Plant was ready but there were no carbines to be manufactured.
- From 2006 MOD had made several unsuccessful attempt to procure the carbines.At first the Amogh and MSMC carbine fielded by the OFB and DRDO were rejected by the army.Many tender for procurement for new carbines were scrapped during this time ,for reason ranging from arrest of OFB chairman for taking bribe from some companies involved in the carbine tender,to cancellation of the tender due to insistence of army to include sight along with the carbines,or because of a single vendor situation because only galil ace had cleared the trials.
- Since the factory was ready ,but there were no carbines to make ,OFB decided to produce hunting and sporting rifles here ,to provide the workload.
- Now,this factory is going to be used for production of AK 203 in JV with Kalashnikov.
Here are some of the photos of OFB korwa ,from 2017.
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-This plant will be headed by a serving Major General from the Army.This is a positive step in right direction and I applaud Modi government for this.More such steps need to be taken ,to ensure quality control,good workmanship and accountability of the OFB employees.Right from hiring,to training and administration of the production.We should aim at making better quality AK than the Russian themselves.When it comes to quality ,the Motto should be second to none.
My dream is to see the rifles made by these factory being sold in US civilian market and building a reputation for quality there.
- Around 50000 AK 203 will be directly procured from Russia,just after signing of this contract.
- Some of it will be assembled here ,with parts sourced from Kalashnikov .
- With time raw materials will be sourced from within the country and whole production will be done here.
-Here is a good video,showing the production facility of Kalashnikov plant producing AK 203.I am impressed by their indoor shooting range,would like to see something similar in Indian Plant as well.
Here is the video Of Rifle factory ishapore.
The contrast is clearly visible ,not only in infrastructure but also in work culture.
P.S There is no use of these rifles,if we will cower down from war.
Here is the official statement from SIG SAUER on the contract :
Interesting point is ,it is now clear that rifle delivered to us will have M-lock handguard,unlike the keymod handguard which used to come in this rifle.The previous photos of this rifle also show the rifle with Keymod Handguard.I can also observe a new muzzle brake in the rifle.
Here is how our new rifle will look with the M-lock handguard ,SIG has updated their official page with this rifle.
SIG716G2 Patrol
This is how it used to look with Keymod handguard Previously :
I am very pleased about the value being offered in this deal,hope Army goes ahead with a new deal for more such rifles.
SIG SAUER Announces Over 72,400 SIG Rifles to be Deployed with Indian Army | Sig Sauer
Interesting point is ,it is now clear that rifle delivered to us will have M-lock handguard,unlike the keymod handguard which used to come in this rifle.The previous photos of this rifle also show the rifle with Keymod Handguard.I can also observe a new muzzle brake in the rifle.
Here is how our new rifle will look with the M-lock handguard ,SIG has updated their official page with this rifle.
SIG716G2 Patrol
This is how it used to look with Keymod handguard Previously :
I am very pleased about the value being offered in this deal,hope Army goes ahead with a new deal for more such rifles.
@Maximus @Milspec @Falcon @randomradio @Ashwin @Ankit Kumar
The General Manager of Rifle Factory Ishapore, DK Mahapatra, has stated that the per-unit price of the 'R2' 7.62x51mm rifle comes to about Rs. 80,000 which is $ 1,121. Statement here: Army orders US assault rifles even as RFI offers its own version at a cheaper rate - Times of India
In the same article, it is said that 'sources' indicate the SIG price was around Rs. 1 lakh per.
Now, we have sources explicitly stating that the SIG 716G2 Patrol was quoted $ 990 per piece (or Rs. 70,618) in the tender for 72,400 rifles (Jane's article posted by Maximus). However we also have sources saying that the total deal value was Rs. 700 crores, which indeed does come to about 96,000 per rifle or $ ~1350.
Some observations:
Although details remain sketchy, it is oft stated by varying sources that the deal also includes "accessories", which might or might not mean:
Forward Vertical Grips
Muzzle Attachments
Extra Magpul PMAG Magazines
Back-Up Iron Sights (BUIS)
and most importantly - optics.
In the civilian market, a typical 20-round PMAG costs $20, BUIS (from Magpul) about $40, a vertical grip also about $20, even if we consider all these were offered at half-price due to bidding, that's still 40 dollars extra - per rifle (1 extra mag per rifle). Those alone add about $3 million to the deal value.
If we assume we are also buying at least a red dot sight per rifle, also from SIG, and assume the same half-price quote, that adds about $11 million, at about $150 per piece.
If we were buying a 3x magnifier instead, and apply same half-price, it would add $17 million. Which would bring us to about $90 million total, or about 640 crores.
If any of those accessories were indeed included, and the quoted prices were above half-price (or a more expensive option chosen rather than what I calculated), then easily that could constitute a $99 million (or 700 crore) deal to include accessories, while keeping the per unit price of the rifles themselves at $ 990. That's if we assume the prices for accessories will be separate from the price of the rifle.
If not anything else, extra magazines and 1 set of BUIS per rifle are an absolute MUST.
This is ofcourse, only if the actual quote itself wasn't 1 lakh per.
NOTES:
It is my sincere belief that if the piss-poor quality & workmanship of OFB is what one gets on a rifle that is supposedly only about 16k cheaper, then I would say NO THANK YOU. On the other hand, if the price for SIG716 was indeed only 70k and OFB is actually asking Rs. 10k MORE than SIG for an assault rifle in the same calibre, I would say that is a PURE AND BLATANT RIP-OFF.
Additional Notes:
Unless the text wasn't later edited by the writer, the TOI article is also the first confirmation from an Indian authority (RFI GM) that the rifle to be manufactured at OFB Korwa will indeed be AK-203, not 103 -
.... "Over time, we have also developed the Ghatak 7.62 x 39 mm assault rifle. This is of the same quality as the AK-203 that the Ministry of Defence is planning to build at Ordnance Factory Korwa in collaboration with Russia. The only difference is the Picatinny Rail (for fitting of accessories) that the Ghaatak doesn't have. That can always be fixed. " The GM added. .....
My comment: You ought to have incorporated such basic things as long-length 12'o clock rail into the design from Day 1 (instead of a handguard rail). It's not like dust covers with P rails were only invented after you started building Ghaatak. Such gross negligence and being utterly unaware of even relatively low-tech advancements made in firearms industry over 20 years ago shows your quality of work and workmanship. Nuff said.
- Edited prices after review, 96k not 98k, and 16k cheaper, not 18k -
The General Manager of Rifle Factory Ishapore, DK Mahapatra, has stated that the per-unit price of the 'R2' 7.62x51mm rifle comes to about Rs. 80,000 which is $ 1,121. Statement here: Army orders US assault rifles even as RFI offers its own version at a cheaper rate - Times of India
In the same article, it is said that 'sources' indicate the SIG price was around Rs. 1 lakh per.
Now, we have sources explicitly stating that the SIG 716G2 Patrol was quoted $ 990 per piece (or Rs. 70,618) in the tender for 72,400 rifles (Jane's article posted by Maximus). However we also have sources saying that the total deal value was Rs. 700 crores, which indeed does come to about 96,000 per rifle or $ ~1350.
Some observations:
Although details remain sketchy, it is oft stated by varying sources that the deal also includes "accessories", which might or might not mean:
Forward Vertical Grips
Muzzle Attachments
Extra Magpul PMAG Magazines
Back-Up Iron Sights (BUIS)
and most importantly - optics.
In the civilian market, a typical 20-round PMAG costs $20, BUIS (from Magpul) about $40, a vertical grip also about $20, even if we consider all these were offered at half-price due to bidding, that's still 40 dollars extra - per rifle (1 extra mag per rifle). Those alone add about $3 million to the deal value.
If we assume we are also buying at least a red dot sight per rifle, also from SIG, and assume the same half-price quote, that adds about $11 million, at about $150 per piece.
If we were buying a 3x magnifier instead, and apply same half-price, it would add $17 million. Which would bring us to about $90 million total, or about 640 crores.
If any of those accessories were indeed included, and the quoted prices were above half-price (or a more expensive option chosen rather than what I calculated), then easily that could constitute a $99 million (or 700 crore) deal to include accessories, while keeping the per unit price of the rifles themselves at $ 990. That's if we assume the prices for accessories will be separate from the price of the rifle.
If not anything else, extra magazines and 1 set of BUIS per rifle are an absolute MUST.
This is ofcourse, only if the actual quote itself wasn't 1 lakh per.
NOTES:
It is my sincere belief that if the piss-poor quality & workmanship of OFB is what one gets on a rifle that is supposedly only about 16k cheaper, then I would say NO THANK YOU. On the other hand, if the price for SIG716 was indeed only 70k and OFB is actually asking Rs. 10k MORE than SIG for an assault rifle in the same calibre, I would say that is a PURE AND BLATANT RIP-OFF.
Additional Notes:
Unless the text wasn't later edited by the writer, the TOI article is also the first confirmation from an Indian authority (RFI GM) that the rifle to be manufactured at OFB Korwa will indeed be AK-203, not 103 -
.... "Over time, we have also developed the Ghatak 7.62 x 39 mm assault rifle. This is of the same quality as the AK-203 that the Ministry of Defence is planning to build at Ordnance Factory Korwa in collaboration with Russia. The only difference is the Picatinny Rail (for fitting of accessories) that the Ghaatak doesn't have. That can always be fixed. " The GM added. .....
My comment: You ought to have incorporated such basic things as long-length 12'o clock rail into the design from Day 1 (instead of a handguard rail). It's not like dust covers with P rails were only invented after you started building Ghaatak. Such gross negligence and being utterly unaware of even relatively low-tech advancements made in firearms industry over 20 years ago shows your quality of work and workmanship. Nuff said.
- Edited prices after review, 96k not 98k, and 16k cheaper, not 18k -
Last edited:
Modi is being fought by the Congress with the last bureaucrat.
Another little update: Last month, in a reply to a question posed in Rajya Sabha, the Minister of State for Defence, Dr. Subhash Bhamre had stated that the first batch of Level III+ BPJs from SMPP Pvt. Ltd., ordered in April last year, are due for delivery in April 2019 - exactly an year after contract signature.
Indian Army’s bulletproof jackets to be delivered from April 2019
The total order quantity consisted of over 186,000 units...indicating they are only intended for the 'frontline' infantry. Me personally, I can't wait to see our troops in these BPJs, with ACH helmets (with cloth covers, mind you), toting modern assault rifles (SIG 716G2s).
Mere 5+ years ki iccha iss saal puri hone wali hai. Though I still despise the fact we're not getting MOLLE on these vests.
Indian Army’s bulletproof jackets to be delivered from April 2019
The total order quantity consisted of over 186,000 units...indicating they are only intended for the 'frontline' infantry. Me personally, I can't wait to see our troops in these BPJs, with ACH helmets (with cloth covers, mind you), toting modern assault rifles (SIG 716G2s).
Mere 5+ years ki iccha iss saal puri hone wali hai. Though I still despise the fact we're not getting MOLLE on these vests.
rofl, I had built my AR10 for 700 bucks, with a SS barrel, and the piss poor Saiga copy is 1200 bucks. What a travesty.@Maximus @Milspec @Falcon @randomradio @Ashwin @Ankit Kumar
The General Manager of Rifle Factory Ishapore, DK Mahapatra, has stated that the per-unit price of the 'R2' 7.62x51mm rifle comes to about Rs. 80,000 which is $ 1,121. Statement here: Army orders US assault rifles even as RFI offers its own version at a cheaper rate - Times of India
In the same article, it is said that 'sources' indicate the SIG price was around Rs. 1 lakh per.
Now, we have sources explicitly stating that the SIG 716G2 Patrol was quoted $ 990 per piece (or Rs. 70,618) in the tender for 72,400 rifles (Jane's article posted by Maximus). However we also have sources saying that the total deal value was Rs. 700 crores, which indeed does come to about 96,000 per rifle or $ ~1350.
Some observations:
Although details remain sketchy, it is oft stated by varying sources that the deal also includes "accessories", which might or might not mean:
Forward Vertical Grips
Muzzle Attachments
Extra Magpul PMAG Magazines
Back-Up Iron Sights (BUIS)
and most importantly - optics.
In the civilian market, a typical 20-round PMAG costs $20, BUIS (from Magpul) about $40, a vertical grip also about $20, even if we consider all these were offered at half-price due to bidding, that's still 40 dollars extra - per rifle (1 extra mag per rifle). Those alone add about $3 million to the deal value.
If we assume we are also buying at least a red dot sight per rifle, also from SIG, and assume the same half-price quote, that adds about $11 million, at about $150 per piece.
If we were buying a 3x magnifier instead, and apply same half-price, it would add $17 million. Which would bring us to about $90 million total, or about 640 crores.
If any of those accessories were indeed included, and the quoted prices were above half-price (or a more expensive option chosen rather than what I calculated), then easily that could constitute a $99 million (or 700 crore) deal to include accessories, while keeping the per unit price of the rifles themselves at $ 990. That's if we assume the prices for accessories will be separate from the price of the rifle.
If not anything else, extra magazines and 1 set of BUIS per rifle are an absolute MUST.
This is ofcourse, only if the actual quote itself wasn't 1 lakh per.
NOTES:
It is my sincere belief that if the piss-poor quality & workmanship of OFB is what one gets on a rifle that is supposedly only about 16k cheaper, then I would say NO THANK YOU. On the other hand, if the price for SIG716 was indeed only 70k and OFB is actually asking Rs. 10k MORE than SIG for an assault rifle in the same calibre, I would say that is a PURE AND BLATANT RIP-OFF.
Additional Notes:
Unless the text wasn't later edited by the writer, the TOI article is also the first confirmation from an Indian authority (RFI GM) that the rifle to be manufactured at OFB Korwa will indeed be AK-203, not 103 -
.... "Over time, we have also developed the Ghatak 7.62 x 39 mm assault rifle. This is of the same quality as the AK-203 that the Ministry of Defence is planning to build at Ordnance Factory Korwa in collaboration with Russia. The only difference is the Picatinny Rail (for fitting of accessories) that the Ghaatak doesn't have. That can always be fixed. " The GM added. .....
My comment: You ought to have incorporated such basic things as long-length 12'o clock rail into the design from Day 1 (instead of a handguard rail). It's not like dust covers with P rails were only invented after you started building Ghaatak. Such gross negligence and being utterly unaware of even relatively low-tech advancements made in firearms industry over 20 years ago shows your quality of work and workmanship. Nuff said.
- Edited prices after review, 96k not 98k, and 16k cheaper, not 18k -
@Maximus @Milspec @Falcon @randomradio @Ashwin @Ankit Kumar
The General Manager of Rifle Factory Ishapore, DK Mahapatra, has stated that the per-unit price of the 'R2' 7.62x51mm rifle comes to about Rs. 80,000 which is $ 1,121. Statement here: Army orders US assault rifles even as RFI offers its own version at a cheaper rate - Times of India
In the same article, it is said that 'sources' indicate the SIG price was around Rs. 1 lakh per.
Now, we have sources explicitly stating that the SIG 716G2 Patrol was quoted $ 990 per piece (or Rs. 70,618) in the tender for 72,400 rifles (Jane's article posted by Maximus). However we also have sources saying that the total deal value was Rs. 700 crores, which indeed does come to about 96,000 per rifle or $ ~1350.
Some observations:
Although details remain sketchy, it is oft stated by varying sources that the deal also includes "accessories", which might or might not mean:
Forward Vertical Grips
Muzzle Attachments
Extra Magpul PMAG Magazines
Back-Up Iron Sights (BUIS)
and most importantly - optics.
In the civilian market, a typical 20-round PMAG costs $20, BUIS (from Magpul) about $40, a vertical grip also about $20, even if we consider all these were offered at half-price due to bidding, that's still 40 dollars extra - per rifle (1 extra mag per rifle). Those alone add about $3 million to the deal value.
If we assume we are also buying at least a red dot sight per rifle, also from SIG, and assume the same half-price quote, that adds about $11 million, at about $150 per piece.
If we were buying a 3x magnifier instead, and apply same half-price, it would add $17 million. Which would bring us to about $90 million total, or about 640 crores.
If any of those accessories were indeed included, and the quoted prices were above half-price (or a more expensive option chosen rather than what I calculated), then easily that could constitute a $99 million (or 700 crore) deal to include accessories, while keeping the per unit price of the rifles themselves at $ 990. That's if we assume the prices for accessories will be separate from the price of the rifle.
If not anything else, extra magazines and 1 set of BUIS per rifle are an absolute MUST.
This is ofcourse, only if the actual quote itself wasn't 1 lakh per.
NOTES:
It is my sincere belief that if the piss-poor quality & workmanship of OFB is what one gets on a rifle that is supposedly only about 16k cheaper, then I would say NO THANK YOU. On the other hand, if the price for SIG716 was indeed only 70k and OFB is actually asking Rs. 10k MORE than SIG for an assault rifle in the same calibre, I would say that is a PURE AND BLATANT RIP-OFF.
Additional Notes:
Unless the text wasn't later edited by the writer, the TOI article is also the first confirmation from an Indian authority (RFI GM) that the rifle to be manufactured at OFB Korwa will indeed be AK-203, not 103 -
.... "Over time, we have also developed the Ghatak 7.62 x 39 mm assault rifle. This is of the same quality as the AK-203 that the Ministry of Defence is planning to build at Ordnance Factory Korwa in collaboration with Russia. The only difference is the Picatinny Rail (for fitting of accessories) that the Ghaatak doesn't have. That can always be fixed. " The GM added. .....
My comment: You ought to have incorporated such basic things as long-length 12'o clock rail into the design from Day 1 (instead of a handguard rail). It's not like dust covers with P rails were only invented after you started building Ghaatak. Such gross negligence and being utterly unaware of even relatively low-tech advancements made in firearms industry over 20 years ago shows your quality of work and workmanship. Nuff said.
- Edited prices after review, 96k not 98k, and 16k cheaper, not 18k -
The figure of 700 crore does not represent the cost of the rifles alone ,but the cost of whole package.Though I am not aware of what else is included in this package,but generally it should include the training in handling,shooting(instructors) and maintenance and repair(armorer),a lot of spare magazines,some additional accessories, spare parts,cost of shipping etc .The price of $990 would have been for bare bone rifle ,along with a mag.Since the SIG had turned out to be the lowest bidder after opening of the bids,more negotiations would have been done regarding the cost of complete package,I am sure here SIG would have tried to hike the cost of other services,but overall both the side seem to have settled for 700 crores.
As far as I know there was no compulsion for the rifle manufactures to include a optic along with the rifle,still would not be surprised if this deal include the optics also,as SIG do manufacture optics and I am sure they would have offered their optics in the package.The lack of any additional tender for optics also point to this.
So basically the figure of 700 crore ,should not be mistook as cost per rifle.
Talking of optics ,I feel a simple red dot sight will be a great injustice to a 7.62x51mm ar 10 rifle.To fully exploit its capabilities, you need a scope with some magnification for medium range and a micro red dot for CQB :
Sometimes I hate OFB ,but then there are times when I feel sorry for them and want them to succeed. Even though government sector has a reputation of incompetence and lazy workforce but it is also true that it does have some passionate,hardworking and motivated people.When we question the failure of small arm development in our country ,we can't shrug off all the responsibilities to the OFB alone.I will deal with this in a separate post.
When I see OFB people standing up for their product ,I do feel good about it.I stand for giving OFB products equal chance along with other products.However, I wonder! whether it's their believe about the quality and ability of their product speaking or the fear of no workload .I am also reminded of the fact that OFB had so many years to work on and improve insas,but they failed to do that.
These kind of statement doesn't present the GM in a good light,question should be asked to him ,why was this not included when they were designing the rifle,why it took something like AK 203 to make them realize about it.Ghatak is a copy of basic layout of akm,what about thinking out of the box,improvements,their R&d take on a modern akm ? none!They could have introduced a more effective muzzle brake,better stock,better iron sights,better receiver design ,better ergonomics while developing Ghatak.
Original layout of AKM
OFB take on AKM
SS-lMT take on AKM
modern Israeli take on AKM
The lack of vision, passion,innovation and R&D in the OFB product is clearly visible.
Frankly ,forget about the metallurgy,reliability ,accuracy of the OFB products .Even the basic design philosophy of their products doesn't inspire much ,instead of being revolutionary or futuristic they appear to be struck in a time warp.Be it ghatak,r2,their new carbine,anamika SMG,sniper rifle,lmg etc.Have you seen a revolutionary design from ARDE/OFB with regard to stock,receiver,sights,muzzle brake,flash hider,barrel ?All they do is pick whatever they can pick ,from wherever they can pick and amalgamate it together.
I see many people here bash army for shifting goal post and thereby dumping indigenous products from time to time ,let's see -
1 Insas 1c - Best rifle ,there is no rifle in competition ,apparently it has passed all the army trials where so called "superior" assault rifles had to beat the dust.Right!
So,why is OFB/drdo not offering it for the carbine trials? Why !!!!
2 Let's talk about MCIWS - In theory Multi caliber concept is excellent.A multi caliber rifle in 7.62x51mm and 7.62x39mm is an ideal solution.Where 7.62x51mm will be great for long distance in plains of punjab,dessert of rajasthan and mountains ,whereas 7.62x39mm will be ideal for CQB in buildup areas like lahore,karachi.But the problem with the mciws is the ability and skill of a soldier to change his barrel and breech block ,which to me is questionable .A barrel is an important part of a rifle and a slight misalignment will have a great impact on the rifle performance ,there is not much room for error, therefore mciws is not practical.
Coming back to the topic in hand ,as per some people MCIWS is an excellent weapon ,which was not able to see the light of the day; just because Indian Army change the goalpost to 7.62 nato.Fair enough!but, as far as I know MCIWS is capable of 7.62x39m,5.56x45mm and 6.8 ,this does not mean that after every 10 rounds you will have to change the barrel or breech block to switch to another caliber. It simply means that the rifle is capable of firing any of these three caliber ,right?Then why is drdo not fielding 5.56x45mm mciws for the carbine tender and 7.62x39mm mciws for the other tender of the army?Why!!!!
3 Ghatak - Many people over here need to understand that building an assault rifle is one thing ,building an accurate,reliable,robust assault rifle is another .Most of the world will be able to make an AK,which will replicate an ak right from the outward appearance to the internal mechanism but the similarity will end there. Replicating will not result in the same metallurgy,engineering,fit and finish of an quality ak.They may appear like an ak but will not be able to replicate the ability of an quality ak.
As far as I am concerned Finnish,Russian and Bulgarian are among the top quality AK out there.America with so much of manufacturing prowess and Industrial base still cannot make an AK comparable to these.Even though Chinese AK are deemed to be good still they are not good enough to match these,it was evident in the recent trials of Pakistani army where the Russian AK had repeatably out shined its Chinese competition and was eventually the winner.So, in short to make AK is simple but to make an high quality AK is not that simple.
I have no idea how GHATAK fairs in comparison to a high quality Russian or Finnish AK ,but if it is good enough then why don't it compete for the 7.62x39mm RFI?why!!!
So where is the question of army shifting its goalpost and leaving the various platform developed by OFB stranded. There is a tender for 7.62x39mm and 5.56x45mm respectively .As per people over here OFB has already got excellent weapon system in these calibers ,then why don't it compete in trials?
Yes,they should have incorporated molle throughout the vest,back and side included,so that solider could customize their load out as per their need.
Maybe the final product might have molle ,this BP vest of CRPF is similar to the vest meant for army and it does have molle.
Beside molle ,I would have liked to see bigger side pouches instead of small grenade pouches present in this.Right now you can carry only two grenade in these two small pouches ,whereas with bigger pouches you can easily carry four grenades in one and IFAK kit in another,or anything else.I am also a strong advocate of making side arm standard for the infantry,so would have liked to see pistol pouches at top.Beside this they should have provided molle at the back also ,it would have given soldier the option to utilize additional attachments as per his requirements.
Of course these shortcoming can be overcome with a good battle belt.Which our soldiers will get in future as army has already issued RFI for it.
However do note that this bullet proof vest will be issued as per the area of deployment and threat perception ,the standard issue vest for our army will be quite similar to a modular plate carrier (RFI already issued).
Meanwhile this is what Russian will be fielding for their infantry
This is what Russian SSO are using in Syria :
This is what will be the standard issue vest of US army :
Which means OFB R2 indeed costs 10,000 rupees or $~140 MORE than SIG 716G2.
The Ishapore GM will excuse me while I go over to the side and have a hearty laugh.
Yes...which means the BRAVO series optics from SIG may have been included (any magnifier is really expensive piece of kit, and a 4x SIG magnifier retails for almost $1200 MSRP!) -
By the way, the exact configuration you showed above (Trijicon ACOG with RMR) is used by the Special Protection Group's Counter Assault Teams on their new SCAR-Hs....
Nowadays not hard to find a lot of US Marines toting this combination.
Yes,they should have incorporated molle throughout the vest,back and side included,so that solider could customize their load out as per their need.
Maybe the final product might have molle ,this BP vest of CRPF is similar to the vest meant for army and it does have molle.
Beside molle ,I would have liked to see bigger side pouches instead of small grenade pouches present in this.Right now you can carry only two grenade in these two small pouches ,whereas with bigger pouches you can easily carry four grenades in one and IFAK kit in another,or anything else.I am also a strong advocate of making side arm standard for the infantry,so would have liked to see pistol pouches at top.Beside this they should have provided molle at the back also ,it would have given soldier the option to utilize additional attachments as per his requirements.
View attachment 4398
Of course these shortcoming can be overcome with a good battle belt.Which our soldiers will get in future as army has already issued RFI for it.
View attachment 4399
However do note that this bullet proof vest will be issued as per the area of deployment and threat perception ,the standard issue vest for our army will be quite similar to a modular plate carrier (RFI already issued).
Meanwhile this is what Russian will be fielding for their infantry
This is what Russian SSO are using in Syria :
This is what will be the standard issue vest of US army :
I viewed our SMPP vest as more or less an analogue to the US Army's Improved Outer Tactical Vest (IOTV), standard issue as of today, the ergonomics & design of both seem somewhat similar, and the all-up weight of approx ~10kgs (to include the neck & groin SAP panels) is similar as well.
Ofcourse our's lacks shoulder panels (hope we add them later, as per need).
Hope we incorporate Molle in later production batches of the SMPP vest at least - still not happy though, it should've been there from the start. If regular Molle is presenting any problems with regard to unwanted snagging or otherwise, then go with the more modern laser-cut Molle, already on offer by MKU -
All the same advantages of Molle, but inverse. Slightly reduces weight and material usage as well (same principle as P-rail vs M-LOK/KeyMod).
It's been a boring evening, thought I'll keep myself busy with my firearm fantasies ...so I think it's high time the Special Forces units of the country (like Para SFs) adopt a new gas piston AR-15 to replace their existing direct impingement M4A1s. Despite the Tavor being available, it's never hard to see many Paras resort to using the M4 in many situations. I can understand some shooters' preference for a traditional rifle layout as opposed to bullpups like Tavor (or the relative bulkiness of rifles like SCAR-L) -
.....and shooters with this preference should have a rifle better than the M4A1 to fall back on in this day and age I feel....some possible choices among piston-driven AR-15s with free-floated barrels & full-length rails -
Barrett Firearms REC7 Gen 2
Lewis Machine & Tool (LMT) Monolithic Rail Platform (MRP) Piston rifle (local manufacturing with Bengaluru-based SS Pvt. Ltd. tie-up already offered)
SIG Sauer 516 G2 Patrol
SIG Sauer MCX Virtus (made with SF needs & inputs in mind)
LWRC International M6 series
...just some of the options, the list would be endless. Unless we'd rather choose the SCAR-L...
The HK416A5 would have been the ideal gun if not for HK's export bans.
I would also love to see SF units deployed for ops in arid regions (like 10 Para, Desert Scorpions) to use rifles painted in Flat Dark Earth (FDE) or Coyote Tan colors instead of standard black. I think once or twice I had see a Para with FDE TAR-21 but they are anything but widespread...
...so I think it's high time the Special Forces units of the country (like Para SFs) adopt a new gas piston AR-15 to replace their existing direct impingement M4A1s. Despite the Tavor being available, it's never hard to see many Paras resort to using the M4 in many situations. I can understand some shooters' preference for a traditional rifle layout as opposed to bullpups like Tavor (or the relative bulkiness of rifles like SCAR-L) -.....and shooters with this preference should have a rifle better than the M4A1 to fall back on in this day and age I feel....some possible choices among piston-driven AR-15s with free-floated barrels & full-length rails -
Barrett Firearms REC7 Gen 2
Lewis Machine & Tool (LMT) Monolithic Rail Platform (MRP) Piston rifle (local manufacturing with Bengaluru-based SS Pvt. Ltd. tie-up already offered)
SIG Sauer 516 G2 Patrol
SIG Sauer MCX Virtus (made with SF needs & inputs in mind)
LWRC International M6 series
...just some of the options, the list would be endless. Unless we'd rather choose the SCAR-L...
The HK416A5 would have been the ideal gun if not for HK's export bans.
I would also love to see SF units deployed for ops in arid regions (like 10 Para, Desert Scorpions) to use rifles painted in Flat Dark Earth (FDE) or Coyote Tan colors instead of standard black. I think once or twice I had see a Para with FDE TAR-21 but they are anything but widespread...
Didn't pay much attention to these guys when they first appeared on the internet but browsing through old pics on my hard drive, I just realized that Scotland Yard's CTSFOs were toting the MCX.....guess the Virtus has someone impressed....
@Milspec @Maximus @Falcon
Some new tech I've been watching;
Intelligent Rail ............ I see a lot of potential for this in future. As weapons (especially Special Forces-operated ones) get more and more electronic items on board (which would no doubt include shot-counter inventory management chips, biometric sensors, course-correction software, integrated ballistics computers etc. in foreseeable future), I think it might be a good idea to provide an integrated battery pack in the stock, and use of the rails as a power-delivery system.
Adopting of such a technology (which is already being studied by the US military) might lead to the creation of electronic accessories like lasers, flashlights, illuminated optics (and futuristic stuff of the type mentioned above) that are lighter & much more compact (as they'd no longer be needed to carry their own batteries).
This could also be a step toward adopting of a single, universally compatible power pack to be carried on the person of a future infantryman/SF operator...
Check out the company involved (T-WORX) here: Intelligent Rail® – Tworx
++++
Radetec SmartSlide (aftermarket component for Glock pistols)
This is more of a novelty right now than a truly sought-after game changer....but for some reason, I foresee things like this becoming stuff that would be required by law to be present on the weapon, especially in civilian markets in the West in the not too distant future. And in the distant future, things like this would probably be integral to firearms in all walks of life. But till then, it remains a piece of cool engineering -
Some new tech I've been watching;
Intelligent Rail ............ I see a lot of potential for this in future. As weapons (especially Special Forces-operated ones) get more and more electronic items on board (which would no doubt include shot-counter inventory management chips, biometric sensors, course-correction software, integrated ballistics computers etc. in foreseeable future), I think it might be a good idea to provide an integrated battery pack in the stock, and use of the rails as a power-delivery system.
Adopting of such a technology (which is already being studied by the US military) might lead to the creation of electronic accessories like lasers, flashlights, illuminated optics (and futuristic stuff of the type mentioned above) that are lighter & much more compact (as they'd no longer be needed to carry their own batteries).
This could also be a step toward adopting of a single, universally compatible power pack to be carried on the person of a future infantryman/SF operator...
Check out the company involved (T-WORX) here: Intelligent Rail® – Tworx
++++
Radetec SmartSlide (aftermarket component for Glock pistols)
This is more of a novelty right now than a truly sought-after game changer....but for some reason, I foresee things like this becoming stuff that would be required by law to be present on the weapon, especially in civilian markets in the West in the not too distant future. And in the distant future, things like this would probably be integral to firearms in all walks of life. But till then, it remains a piece of cool engineering -