Possibly for export. Since it's a JV, the Russians also have a stake in the company. So some markets will open up for the Russians through India.
Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
- Thread starter Parthu
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Possibly for export. Since it's a JV, the Russians also have a stake in the company. So some markets will open up for the Russians through India.
First of all the gun in the pic is not an AK-203. The pic is very old (I posted it before on this very thread when discussing the ADTL scope) and the rifle appears to be a Bulgarian/Romanian AK with FAB kit which are widespread in RR usage.
Not likely to be any. But it's possible we may modify something after our forces actually get to put in some time with the weapon.
All the AK-related stuff that we put up a requirement for will be made here.
Not sure - but would make sense if they do. However, there are several other OFs across India that produce the 7.62x39mm rounds.
As far as buying is concerned, I'm aware of a procurement of VSS rifles for SFs. But there is no local production involved for it, just a small off the shelf batch.
Regarding OF Korwa, the 'other small arms' are likely to include the extended AK family (like the AK-201/202 variant in 5.56, which the russians might want to pitch for IA's carbine requirement). However, I don't think there's any solid plan yet for other weapon types except AK-203 from this plant as of yet. They're just throwing the doors open is all.
It just appears to be a rehash of the previous planned SF weapons deal (which came up till DAC table but wasn't cleared at that time). Check post #477 for a breakdown of what's likely to be involved. @Maximus also made a post regarding the same.
In short - SCAR rifles (or HK416, but unlikely), Mk.48 MGs, undisclosed 9mm Beretta handgun (M9A3, Px4 Storm & APX are possibilities), a Finnish Sako sniper rifle (could also be from Tikka which is a Sako subsidiary), and some other non-firearm stuff like NVGs.
But there were no details regarding the non-firearm equipment.
It just boggles my mind that tiny nations like Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Poland, Finland, Sweeden, Switzerland, Slovakia, Israel even Turkey have such fine small arms Industry, while India's struggle bus is stuck in the ditch for decades.
Above purchase was supposed to happen during previous govt term. However there was a rift between mod officials and army officials.However now it has been cleared 715 Mk 48 Light Machine Guns (LMGs), 1,050 FN Scar (H) 7.62x51 assault rifles, 1,400 FN Scar (L) , 110 .50 Cal Browning heavy machine guns (HMG), 400 helmet-mounted night vision systems, 600 combat free fall parachutes, 100 Barret M107 A1 heavy sniping rifles and 20 million rounds of ammunition for all of these small arms...
Some days back I was googling about various ballistic plate carriers available to the Indian military through domestic or foreign manufacturers. Came across this :
Honeywell Launches Advanced Light-Weight Centurion Composite Fabric – India Strategic
Apparently Honeywell used their patented lightweight fibre called "Spectra" to make a very lightweight ballistic plate carrier called "Centurion" that they are touting as next gen infantry protection gear. They have managed to secure some orders from some American units as well. They showcased it in India in DefExpo 2018 and soon the matter died down.
It seems now they have re-appeared again.
Rs 1,200cr Honeywell plant to make defence fabric in Butibori | Nagpur News - Times of India
The company probably wants to use India as a manufacturing base for global customers. In that context here are some photos of the then(DefExpo 2018) showcased plate carrier :
If one can recall the Obama visit to India where a lot of DTTI initiatives were announced, a lightweight ballistic PC was one of them. I am not suggesting the DTTI's hand here, but if they manage to make a sale it would be the only successful completion of a DTTI target that Obama set wayback.
Honeywell Launches Advanced Light-Weight Centurion Composite Fabric – India Strategic
Apparently Honeywell used their patented lightweight fibre called "Spectra" to make a very lightweight ballistic plate carrier called "Centurion" that they are touting as next gen infantry protection gear. They have managed to secure some orders from some American units as well. They showcased it in India in DefExpo 2018 and soon the matter died down.
It seems now they have re-appeared again.
Rs 1,200cr Honeywell plant to make defence fabric in Butibori | Nagpur News - Times of India
The company probably wants to use India as a manufacturing base for global customers. In that context here are some photos of the then(DefExpo 2018) showcased plate carrier :
If one can recall the Obama visit to India where a lot of DTTI initiatives were announced, a lightweight ballistic PC was one of them. I am not suggesting the DTTI's hand here, but if they manage to make a sale it would be the only successful completion of a DTTI target that Obama set wayback.
...and it's going to continue being stuck in the ditch for decades to come, rest assured.
OFB obviously has no intention or incentive to correct itself, they won't let any Private player get a hold in the industry (we can see them trying to grab deals like the 5.56 carbine which were understood to be earmarked to cultivate private industry), and thanks to their MoD clout, their position is secure - as in, if not the locally-designed rifles, OFB still gets to build the Russian rifles as GoI gave them the license on a platter.
Meanwhile...Punj Lloyd and their IWI JV (which had potential to stir up a small arms production and R&D hub in India) sits gathering dust, with the only orders coming in being mostly from 3rd party countries for components or continuation of previous IWI Tavor deals with forces.
I've been thinking and it seems the AK expansion plan for the Russians might not stop at offering the AK-201/202.....they might offer the AK-308 for the Army's bulk requirement for 7.62x51mm rifles (on top of the 72k SIGs bought off shelf) as well, produced via the Korwa plant.
I'll say I'm not a fan of .308 AK rifles...from what I've heard they're kinda off. I still expect the AK-308 to be better than VEPRs or Saiga 308s though (maybe @Milspec can offer insight). If we're going for a foreign 308, the best option IMO would be a piston AR-10. Just buy more SIG-716s FFS. No need to operate a dozen types of rifles.
But we know it ain't gonna work that way. There will be a new tender, new bids etc. etc.
But I'll say I would definitely prefer the AK-308 over the OFB's R-2 rifle though. Plus it'll give us at least a bit of commonality with the rest of the Army's AK-203s with regard to peripheral equipment & furniture (grips, stocks, triggers etc).
Why don't we produced licensed weapons in OFBs. This would solve the problem of quality as well as OFB roadblocks. We will get quality weapons whiel OFBs guys are satisfied with orders , isnt it??
Indian Army to test AK-203 in carbine role also against terrorists
The assault rife would be provided to troops for carrying out anti-terrorist operations. A separate tender is being floated to buy 93,000 carbines under fast track procedure.
ANI | Updated: Apr 09, 2019, 08.50 AM IST
Photo : AK-203 with Russian Red Dot PO1x20 PM and GP-34 UGBL
The Indian Army is planning to use a modified version of the AK-203 assault rifle in carbine role for its troops deployed during counter-insurgency operations in Jammu and Kashmir.
The AK-203 assault rifle would be manufactured at Uttar Pradesh's Amethi facility in a joint venture between the Ordnance Factory Board and Russia.
The assault rife would be provided to troops for carrying out anti-terrorist operations. A separate tender is being floated to buy 93,000 carbines under fast track procedure.
"We want to try out the AK-203 in the carbine role. We can remove the rifle's butt completely to reduce its size and then it can be hidden easily under clothes to be used in close quarter combat operations against terrorists," top Army sources told ANI.
"If needed, more modifications can be done in the AK-203 to suit the carbine role requirement," they said.
"The carbines are also useful in close quarter combat and can be highly effective during operations like room interventions."
"Efforts are under process to acquire 93,000 carbines and the Defence Ministry has formed an oversight committee to look into the case."
A senior Lieutenant General-rank officer has been appointed as the member of the committee including other members from the Defence Ministry and the DRDO.
The Defence Ministry is expected to take a call once the oversight committee submits its report.
The Central government has already finalised contracts for buying two types of modern assault rifles for the Army.
The government is also thinking to meet the requirement of carbines through foreign vendors initially and then through 'Make in India' program under which more than three lakh carbines would be manufactured at an Indian facility.
Indian Army to test AK-203 in carbine role also against terrorists
What happened to the Caracal CAR-817 @Parthu ? That deal still happening ?
The assault rife would be provided to troops for carrying out anti-terrorist operations. A separate tender is being floated to buy 93,000 carbines under fast track procedure.
ANI | Updated: Apr 09, 2019, 08.50 AM IST
Photo : AK-203 with Russian Red Dot PO1x20 PM and GP-34 UGBL
The Indian Army is planning to use a modified version of the AK-203 assault rifle in carbine role for its troops deployed during counter-insurgency operations in Jammu and Kashmir.
The AK-203 assault rifle would be manufactured at Uttar Pradesh's Amethi facility in a joint venture between the Ordnance Factory Board and Russia.
The assault rife would be provided to troops for carrying out anti-terrorist operations. A separate tender is being floated to buy 93,000 carbines under fast track procedure.
"We want to try out the AK-203 in the carbine role. We can remove the rifle's butt completely to reduce its size and then it can be hidden easily under clothes to be used in close quarter combat operations against terrorists," top Army sources told ANI.
"If needed, more modifications can be done in the AK-203 to suit the carbine role requirement," they said.
"The carbines are also useful in close quarter combat and can be highly effective during operations like room interventions."
"Efforts are under process to acquire 93,000 carbines and the Defence Ministry has formed an oversight committee to look into the case."
A senior Lieutenant General-rank officer has been appointed as the member of the committee including other members from the Defence Ministry and the DRDO.
The Defence Ministry is expected to take a call once the oversight committee submits its report.
The Central government has already finalised contracts for buying two types of modern assault rifles for the Army.
The government is also thinking to meet the requirement of carbines through foreign vendors initially and then through 'Make in India' program under which more than three lakh carbines would be manufactured at an Indian facility.
Indian Army to test AK-203 in carbine role also against terrorists
What happened to the Caracal CAR-817 @Parthu ? That deal still happening ?
Incidentally, that's what we're doing now with the AK-203. And to be frank it's what OFB had been doing for the vast majority of its time serving the requirements of the military. The SLR, Lee-Enfield, Browning HP, Sterling, AK copies, etc. which formed the bulk of IA arsenal at one point (some items like the HP pistol still do) were all foreign designs build under license (and some built unlawfully, like the SLR).
However that won't stop OFB from trying to increase their income by pushing their own designs so they can get all the money without any royalty cut to the foreign OEM.
As I also tweeted a reply, its the Scorpio MilLe and not TGT/TCT.
Old news, already discussed in the thread.
The 816 you mean. 817 is a 7.62 rifle.
It's back to square one. I expect a fresh RFI is the only way to progress now. High time the procurement dept learns this axiom:
" Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. "
It's quite clear that the success rate (especially when timeframes are taken into account) of the current procurement system is quite appalling. Continuing with it is not only harmful for the military but also hints at a total disregarded to fix or amend the broken system on part of both the military brass and the MoD. The only 'solution' to this that has shown up so far is a knee-jerk emergency purchase of equipment. Which is obviously nothing but a very temporary resolution on a case-by-case basis.
Whats the difference? - Also whats the Advantage of the Foregrip design as seen in this ?
Broadly they are very similar. Only minor peripheral differences here & there like a different stock design for example. Frankly seems the models are segregated for marketing purposes rather than anything else. And what the marketing would like to indicate to the prospective buyer (even though their own spec sheets speak otherwise) is that the Minerva MilLe line-up is aimed more toward the military-law enforcement part of the spectrum whereas the Minerva Tactical line-up (which TGT/TCT fall under) is aimed more toward the law enforcement-civilian shooter spectrum.
The MilLe variants come out of the box with a M-LOK fore end (which is arguably the best interface system at the moment):
Whereas the Tactical line-up lacks this, instead offering only screwholes on which you then have to install a full-length aftermarket interface system of your choice (if you're not happy with the small P-rail section offered toward the muzzle):
NSG with arguably the best looking PC in use by any unit in India. Looks like somebody tried to hide the NVD for some reason, botched that one up though. Also they seem to have hands free comms.
Sig MPX and FN P90. This is the first time I am seeing NSG with P90s. The Sig MPX is starting to become a more common occurrence, wonder if those were selected over the Vector.
KUMAON REGIMENT GHATAK PLATOON
Sig MPX and FN P90. This is the first time I am seeing NSG with P90s. The Sig MPX is starting to become a more common occurrence, wonder if those were selected over the Vector.
KUMAON REGIMENT GHATAK PLATOON
More or less the same, Saiga, Vepr, Izhmash. Other than the buttstock and magwell difference there is not much. All fire controls, barrels, reciever are made in izveshk plant. Tula plant barely makes any firearms anymore.
I'll say I'm not a fan of .308 AK rifles...from what I've heard they're kinda off. I still expect the AK-308 to be better than VEPRs or Saiga 308s though (maybe @Milspec can offer insight). If we're going for a foreign 308, the best option IMO would be a piston AR-10. Just buy more SIG-716s FFS. No need to operate a dozen types of rifles.
I don't even care for a piston AR10,
Even DI AR10's are fine.