Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

Parthu said:
The biggest deficiency with the SVD is it's scope though. But this is a first solid step toward fixing that. Though I'm not sure in exactly what level of trials/acceptance this kit is wrt IA SVDs as yet.
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Vehemently Disagree, PSO-1 is an amazing scope. It may be dated, but a fixed 4 power scope, is probably the best tactical DM scope for support fire, today most prism scopes are trying to mimic what PSO did 5 decades ago. Also little known fact, that a lot Car Zeiss ZF4 went into the PSO-1 and that reticle is one of the fastest BDC reticles to date. That reticle will get you to 600-yard target faster than a mildot ever could.
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Milspec said:
Infantry squad formations have designated marksmen, Spec ops team have designated snipers.
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Pretty sure there isn't any DM in an IA infantry Section.

From what I recall, an IA section has (correct me if I'm wrong):

6 x dedicated Riflemen (including Section Commander)
2 x LMG Gunners
2 x Carl Gustaf (RCL) operators (one has the RCL, other one supports with reloads )

Milspec said:
Vehemently Disagree, PSO-1 is an amazing scope. It may be dated, but a fixed 4 power scope, is probably the best tactical DM scope for support fire, today most prism scopes are trying to mimic what PSO did 5 decades ago. Also little known fact, that a lot Car Zeiss ZF4 went into the PSO-1 and that reticle is one of the fastest BDC reticles to date. That reticle will get you to 600-yard target faster than a mildot ever could.
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You sure a much better, more flexible solution cannot be found in a 1-6x LPVO scope like the ones US SOFs tote on their DMRs nowadays?

Russians ditched the POS-1 on the more recent Dragunov iterations such as SVDS & SVDM.

Either way, a rail cannot hurt - let the shooters go with whichever one they like.
 
Killbot said:
What sniper rifle do spec ops snipers use?
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Sniper: a large variety is on the table...SSG 69, Barrett M107s, etc. Not sure if the SP-66 Mauser is still in use or not.
Marksmen: Galatz (Galil Sniper) mostly

Have those SAKO guns been inducted yet?
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If you're talking about the new ones, no. But MARCOS have an older batch ordered few years ago that are in use.
 
A lot of helmets with NVG mounts and side rails. Most likely the new MKU helmets that were ordered by the Army. The guys wearing the helmets are regular troops. So will this become the standard issue helmet for IA ? The initial lot of MKU helmets didn't hve NVG mounts or side rails, maybe they were later added or the order was modified.

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Gautam said:
A lot of helmets with NVG mounts and side rails. Most likely the new MKU helmets that were ordered by the Army. The guys wearing the helmets are regular troops. So will this become the standard issue helmet for IA ? The initial lot of MKU helmets didn't hve NVG mounts or side rails, maybe they were later added or the order was modified.

View attachment 9396View attachment 9397
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Probably these helmets will be distributed amongst COIN infantry at first starting with rashtriya rifles,followed by others.Good to see focus on optics.
 
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Parthu said:
Pretty sure there isn't any DM in an IA infantry Section.

From what I recall, an IA section has (correct me if I'm wrong):

6 x dedicated Riflemen (including Section Commander)
2 x LMG Gunners
2 x Carl Gustaf (RCL) operators (one has the RCL, other one supports with reloads )



You sure a much better, more flexible solution cannot be found in a 1-6x LPVO scope like the ones US SOFs tote on their DMRs nowadays?

Russians ditched the POS-1 on the more recent Dragunov iterations such as SVDS & SVDM.

Either way, a rail cannot hurt - let the shooters go with whichever one they like.
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You sure there are 2 LMGs per section? Or one?
Also doubt all squads have carl gustavs.Maybe 1 per platoon.
 
GASOLINE_ON_FIRE said:
Saw some photographs of NATO militaries. Their infantry/non spec guys had pants with sewed knee pads. Honestly, thats a brilliant idea.
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Most of what NATO is using is supplied by Norway's NFM Group under the GARM line of tactical clothing (THOR plate carries and Skjold plates are also commonly supplied by NFM to NATO, including a recent order by the French armed forces of 31600 ballistic vests and plates).

Home - NFM Group - Enhanced Combat Performance

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I've seen plenty of soldiers that opt for hard strap-on knee pads over sewed in ones, tbh. Just a preference thing. I didn't like the added bulk of sewn in knee pads.

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Just goes to shows that despite our low profile, Norway is one of the top-end suppliers of military equipment in Europe and beyond.
 
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Okay...so apparently, the Kerala Police is purchasing 500 INSAS rifles (I'm assuming they're the 1B folding-stock variant) and about 1.51 lakhs of associated ammo (I'm assuming 5.56x45mm Ball aka FMJ) from beloved Ordnance Factories:

Kerala Police to purchase 500 guns, 1.5 lakh bullets

Now, the appalling thing here is the pricing of these items. The 500 INSAS are reportedly coming in for a total value of Rs. 3.84 crores, while the 151,000 rounds are for an additional Rs. 76.13 lakhs. Which means...

3.84 crores = $535,276

meaning a per unit price of $1,070 (Rs. 77,000) for each of the 500 rifles. Now this is stunning in of itself, till now I was under the impression that the maximum price demanded for INSAS was around $700 (Rs. 50,000) for the newer 1B1 variants for Army though I did not have the data to prove it. The amount being charged by OFB here is more than TWICE the price the US Army pays for its new M4A1s manufactured by FN which are bought for about $473 a piece (thanks to bulk order, otherwise they cost over $1k).

A decent Palmetto State DI AR-15 can be had in RETAIL for $450-500 or thereabouts, even a $200 tax stamp for conversion (not that INSAS has full-auto mode) doesn't bring it to close $1k.

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Now, INSAS has been in mass production for long time, so the argument that 500 order was too small doesn't make sense - we know this isn't the first order for INSAS rifles in country, not even for this particular variant.

The second shocker is the price of the ammo...

76.13 lakhs = $106,269

Which comes to about 70 cents per round of 5.56 Ball...another blatant rip-off. The price of this ammo should be ideally in the region of about 35 cents per round in retail (@Milspec may confirm/deny), with possibility of going down to between 20-25 cents for bulk orders like these. What makes OFB ammo so costly is beyond me (OFB ammo, which according to many is notorious for often being overgassed -quantity of powder above spec- and having poor purity of the powder on top of it).

I don't know for how much longer OFB will be allowed to openly fleece its customers this way, everyone from Army, CAPFs to State Police Depts are spending way too much of their Capital expenditures to procure what is at its core a not-so-great rifle, with little to no modern features whatsoever (no rails, no adjustable length stock, crappy 20-round magazine, excessive length & weight etc. etc.).

I guess for as long as we have no other viable alternative to produce arms & ammunition in the country - part of the reason why I always advocate private sector participation and Govt support for those ventures in this industry.

@randomradio @Falcon @vstol Jockey

Killbot said:
Can we afford it?
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Depends on how many we're buying. Planning to equip whole infantry? Then probably no, but for those engaged in CI/CT or Security roles in insurgency-hit areas? Should be reasonable.

I'm sure MKU or TATA can come up with cheaper indigenous alternatives if asked.

Killbot said:
Can we use ADTL on Dragunov?
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First the Dragunov will need a railed dust cover for that.

But the bigger question is, is the ADTL scope really what you want to need to replace the PSO-1? Answer is no. You need a 1-6x LPVO, and the ADTL one certainly doesn't appear to be a variable power scope.
 
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Parthu said:
Okay...so apparently, the Kerala Police is purchasing 500 INSAS rifles (I'm assuming they're the 1B folding-stock variant) and about 1.51 lakhs of associated ammo (I'm assuming 5.56x45mm Ball aka FMJ) from beloved Ordnance Factories:

Kerala Police to purchase 500 guns, 1.5 lakh bullets

Now, the appalling thing here is the pricing of these items. The 500 INSAS are reportedly coming in for a total value of Rs. 3.84 crores, while the 151,000 rounds are for an additional Rs. 76.13 lakhs. Which means...

3.84 crores = $535,276

meaning a per unit price of $1,070 (Rs. 77,000) for each of the 500 rifles. Now this is stunning in of itself, till now I was under the impression that the maximum price demanded for INSAS was around $700 (Rs. 50,000) for the newer 1B1 variants for Army though I did not have the data to prove it. The amount being charged by OFB here is more than TWICE the price the US Army pays for its new M4A1s manufactured by FN which are bought for about $473 a piece (thanks to bulk order, otherwise they cost over $1k).

A decent Palmetto State DI AR-15 can be had in RETAIL for $450-500 or thereabouts, even a $200 tax stamp for conversion (not that INSAS has full-auto mode) doesn't bring it to close $1k.

516447306.jpg


Now, INSAS has been in mass production for long time, so the argument that 500 order was too small doesn't make sense - we know this isn't the first order for INSAS rifles in country, not even for this particular variant.

The second shocker is the price of the ammo...

76.13 lakhs = $106,269

Which comes to about 70 cents per round of 5.56 Ball...another blatant rip-off. The price of this ammo should be ideally in the region of about 35 cents per round in retail (@Milspec may confirm/deny), with possibility of going down to between 20-25 cents for bulk orders like these. What makes OFB ammo so costly is beyond me (OFB ammo, which according to many is notorious for often being overgassed -quantity of powder above spec- and having poor purity of the powder on top of it).

I don't know for how much longer OFB will be allowed to openly fleece its customers this way, everyone from Army, CAPFs to State Police Depts are spending way too much of their Capital expenditures to procure what is at its core a not-so-great rifle, with little to no modern features whatsoever (no rails, no adjustable length stock, crappy 20-round magazine, excessive length & weight etc. etc.).

I guess for as long as we have no other viable alternative to produce arms & ammunition in the country - part of the reason why I always advocate private sector participation and Govt support for those ventures in this industry.

@randomradio @Falcon @vstol Jockey
Click to expand...

That big word that starts with the letter "C".
 
Parthu said:
Which comes to about 70 cents per round of 5.56 Ball...another blatant rip-off. The price of this ammo should be ideally in the region of about 35 cents per round in retail (@Milspec may confirm/deny), with possibility of going down to between 20-25 cents for bulk orders like these. What makes OFB ammo so costly is beyond me (OFB ammo, which according to many is notorious for often being overgassed -quantity of powder above spec- and having poor purity of the powder on top of it).
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5.56 nato ball ammo 62 grain, 0.22c/r that's what I paid last time for 2000 rounds.

Insas for $1000 bucks is purely stupid.
PSA AR15 routinely builds for $350
So does BCA, radical arms.

For 1000 bucks you are looking at AR15, with a good drop in trigger as well as high end BCG.
no need to bring in tax stamp, its a government thing about it, for the manufacturer it doesn't take a dollar more to build a select-fire vs semi auto product.


Parthu said:
First the Dragunov will need a railed dust cover for that.

But the bigger question is, is the ADTL scope really what you want to need to replace the PSO-1? Answer is no. You need a 1-6x LPVO, and the ADTL one certainly doesn't appear to be a variable power scope.
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You can mount any scope to the SVD, if the scope's tube size is the same as the pso-1 you can use the same side mount, if the tube size is different, any armorer can change the mounting rings and install the scope on new ring mounts.

What is this ADTL?
 
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