Sukhoi Su-30MKI

randomradio said:
How so? 3600Km versus 3000Km.
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Jaguar does just about 300NM combat radius at low levels with full load which includes 3 DTs. It has even lower throw weight than much touted Rafale. Add to that its low thrust engines which wont let it take off at full load in hot summer conditions from majority of western Indian air bases.
 
Jaguar's combat radius is given as 908km. It carries the 2 drop tanks in this configuration. Su-30MKI's without external fuel has a CR of 1350km as per the old Lockheed source.

Jaguar CR is in the low flight profile. In low altitude flight, MKI's range dips from 3000km to a measly 1270km. Of course Jaguar is optimized for low-flight while MKI for high. Flying low might not be a smart strategy anyway given the proliferation of shoulder fired SAM's and AAA.

MKI also does not fly with external fuel because well, it can't. How much munition can Jaguar carry in this config? Note MKI range is for high altitude A2A mission with 8 missiles which together with rails shouldn't cost more than 2 tons.

This is all the data we have from wiki.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
That combat radius is for British conditions. Even in Sea Harriers we could do multiple vertical take off and landings in Sea Harrier in UK but in India, the fuel load was restricted to 2200 litres for vertical take off and zero load for vertical landing. That too when BA modified them with a 50 gallon water tank to enhance the thrust. We had to do vertical landing on shore with water injection ON.
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So what does that say for Su-30's range in Indian conditions in stead of cold wintery Siberia?
 
vstol Jockey said:
Jaguar does just about 300NM combat radius at low levels with full load which includes 3 DTs. It has even lower throw weight than much touted Rafale. Add to that its low thrust engines which wont let it take off at full load in hot summer conditions from majority of western Indian air bases.
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That combat radius is too low compared to its actual fuel load. On internal fuel alone, the MKI's and Jaguar's fuel fractions are similar. So adding 2 DTs are bound to increase the Jaguar's range.

The engine is a problem now, but not for very long.
 
randomradio said:
That combat radius is too low compared to its actual fuel load. On internal fuel alone, the MKI's and Jaguar's fuel fractions are similar. So adding 2 DTs are bound to increase the Jaguar's range.

The engine is a problem now, but not for very long.
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the engine is so underpowered that during kargil, we cud not use Jags for strike and it can't go over himalayas for strike in Tibet. The engine is nearly and max continuous power with full load and burning fuel like hell.
 
vstol Jockey said:
the engine is so underpowered that during kargil, we cud not use Jags for strike and it can't go over himalayas for strike in Tibet. The engine is nearly and max continuous power with full load and burning fuel like hell.
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I was little surprised to see such low thrust numbers for Jaguar engines. Any specific reasons why they chose such under powered engines?
 
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Bali78 said:
I was little surprised to see such low thrust numbers for Jaguar engines. Any specific reasons why they chose such under powered designs?
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It was underpowered when it was bought and subsequent increase in weight due to additional equipment made it worse. Remember the son of late Jagjivan Ram and Surya magazine expose about the bribes in this deal?
 
vstol Jockey said:
It was underpowered when it was bought and subsequent increase in weight due to additional equipment made it worse. Remember the son of late Jagjivan Ram and Surya magazine expose about the bribes in this deal?
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I recently came to know about his photos in Surya magazine ?. Didn't know abt his roll in this deal though. Apparently he was given a Mercedes by some arms dealer.
 
Bali78 said:
I was little surprised to see such low thrust numbers for Jaguar engines. Any specific reasons why they chose such under powered engines?
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It was made for low level flight and cruise flight at medium altitude. And the engine was suited for the colder weather in Europe.

In India, it was fine in the beginning. But we slowly started adding a lot of new avionics to it and made it heavier. The new Jaguars have to have a new engine if they are to carry AESA radars.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
It was underpowered when it was bought and subsequent increase in weight due to additional equipment made it worse. Remember the son of late Jagjivan Ram and Surya magazine expose about the bribes in this deal?
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Wait what? Corruption in IAF dealings, no way!!
 
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Milspec said:
Wait what? Corruption in IAF dealings, no way!!
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Sanjay Gandhi was involved in the Jaguar Fighter deal. He personally pushed shoved jaguars to IAF. This deal also killed our own home grown hf-24 Marut Fighters forever. And alongwith it our capabilities to make one.

IAF accepted underpowered jaguars but Marut was not acceptable......

Other Gandu RaGa was peddling Saab viggen which was opposed by uncle Sam as it had US made parts....,.
 
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lcafanboy said:
Sanjay Gandhi was involved in the Jaguar Fighter deal. He personally pushed shoved jaguars to IAF. This deal also killed our own home grown hf-24 Marut Fighters forever. And alongwith it our capabilities to make one.

IAF accepted underpowered jaguars but Marut was not acceptable......

Other Gandu RaGa was peddling Saab viggen which was opposed by uncle Sam as it had US made parts....,.
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The opposite there. Sanjay Gandhi thought the IAF wanted Viggen and were instead having the Jaguar pushed on them until the IAF convinced him otherwise. At the time, the Jaguars were our only real option. It was the only twin engine jet and was also nuclear capable. All other jets, F1 and Viggen, were not.

As for HF-24, it had a good run, but the engines did not have afterburners and the aircraft was subsonic only. There was a plan for HF-24 Mk2 which did not materialize because the engine available was too expensive. The actual Jaguar competitor was the HF-24 Mk3, or HF-73, which failed after the Germans backed out.
 
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randomradio said:
That combat radius is too low compared to its actual fuel load. On internal fuel alone, the MKI's and Jaguar's fuel fractions are similar. So adding 2 DTs are bound to increase the Jaguar's range.

The engine is a problem now, but not for very long.
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What according to you should be a typical munitions load for strike mission say across the western border, with no Himalayas in between. straight shot at a distance of your choice from the point of take off?



jagmki.JPG


Also take a look at the specs and let me know if they are close to valid for the discussion.
 
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randomradio said:
The opposite there. Sanjay Gandhi thought the IAF wanted Viggen and were instead having the Jaguar pushed on them until the IAF convinced him otherwise. At the time, the Jaguars were our only real option. It was the only twin engine jet and was also nuclear capable. All other jets, F1 and Viggen, were not.

As for HF-24, it had a good run, but the engines did not have afterburners and the aircraft was subsonic only. There was a plan for HF-24 Mk2 which did not materialize because the engine available was too expensive. The actual Jaguar competitor was the HF-24 Mk3, or HF-73, which failed after the Germans backed out.
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Engine was actually blocked by the brits (BTW)
 
Milspec said:
What according to you should be a typical munitions load for strike mission say across the western border, with no Himalayas in between. straight shot at a distance of your choice from the point of take off?



View attachment 1989

Also take a look at the specs and let me know if they are close to valid for the discussion.
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Isn't the internal and max fuel numbers for Jaguar quite high with respect to MTOW? The numbers just don't add up.
 
Bali78 said:
Isn't the internal and max fuel numbers for Jaguar quite high with respect to MTOW? The numbers just don't add up.
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Fuel Capacity internal/ Max (Jag)
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/jaguar.htm

MTOW/Clean (Jag)
SEPECAT Jaguar Specifications
and Wiki

SU Fuel Reserve
Su-30 Specifications
rest Wiki

isn't the internal and max fuel numbers for Jaguar quite high with respect to MTOW? - That was the selling pt of the Jag, Small A/c with a big belly.
The SEPECAT Jaguar Ground Attack Aircraft - Elite Military Forces
 
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