Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[randomradio]

Please tell me the flexural rigidity needed for a hardpoint, especially the one that can carry a KAB1500L (1500KG=3300lb ) but cannot qualify for a air delivered nuke.
Specially when Jag is known for the 1000lb AN52 Nuke.

Why are we talking about hardpoints?

I was referring to hardening electronics for nuclear strike. You want your equipment functioning after you've dropped a nuke. Not all aircraft are hardened. The MKI also doesn't come with hardened electronics for nuclear strike.

 

[Milspec]

France and the UK were building new aircraft to replace them. The Mirage 2000D and the Rafale replaced the Jaguar in French service while the Tornado and the Typhoon replaced it in British service.

Ecuador is a poor country. The Jaguars weren't replaced; the squadron that flew them was simply dissolved. They're still operating the Cheetah and Kfir, two bootleg variants of the Mirage III, so it's not like they've replaced their Jaguars with more modern aircraft.

Oman on the other hand was rich enough to replace them with Typhoons and F-16.

India is in a different situation: unlike France and the UK, it had no indigenous replacement ready to replace the Jaguars, unlike Oman it was too poor to purchase replacements from abroad, and unlike Ecuador it still had enough money to upgrade them and keep operating them.



Them's fighting words. The Jaguar was a very good aircraft in the 1970s and 1980s.

Given the claim for our friend here that jaguars cant even be replaced by F15's or MKI, the only replacement can be Rafales, how would a f16 , a tornado or a m2k replace this platform?

 

[randomradio]

Now I have Seen It ALL

5th gen is way too disruptive.

 

[Milspec]

Why are we talking about hardpoints?

I was referring to hardening electronics for nuclear strike. You want your equipment functioning after you've dropped a nuke. Not all aircraft are hardened. The MKI also doesn't come with hardened electronics for nuclear strike.

Hardened electronics? Please elaborate specifics.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

5th gen is way too disruptive.

So you mean to say that IAF is full of chumps who DO NOT understand Technology

These people Eat ; live and Breathe technology and tactics 24/7 basis

If J 20 was such a threat ; we would have simply bought PAK FA immediately
and Not waited so long for Rafale

 

[randomradio]

So you mean to say that IAF is full of chumps who DO NOT understand Technology

These people Eat ; live and Breathe technology and tactics 24/7 basis

If J 20 was such a threat ; we would have simply bought PAK FA immediately
and Not waited so long for Rafale

Your conclusions are wrong. The 36 Rafales are good enough to counter the current version of the J-20 for some time, so the IAF does not have to deal with the paralysis of meeting an opponent that cannot be handled. But the announcement that the J-20 is now in service is a shocker.

PAK FA is not ready for induction and the F-35 is not a capable counter to the J-20.

The IAF has been desperately awaiting the induction of the Rafale for a decade now.

 

[randomradio]

Hardened electronics? Please elaborate specifics.

Radiation hardening - Wikipedia

 

[A Person]

Given the claim for our friend here that jaguars cant even be replaced by F15's or MKI, the only replacement can be Rafales, how would a f16 , a tornado or a m2k replace this platform?

Jaguars are strike aircraft, meant for ground attack. The Tornado is likewise a strike aircraft. F-16 and Mirage 2000D are multirole aircraft -- keep in mind that the 2000D is based on the 2000N which is a nuclear strike aircraft. Rafale is omnirole and designed to replace every other fighter aircraft in French inventory.

For F-15, it depends on the model (like for the F-16). The Strike Eagle would replace the Jaguar easily, but the plain old Eagle was designed for air superiority and doesn't have much to offer in air-to-ground roles.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

F-35 is not a capable counter to the J-20.

Mate you are simply Going way over the line ; this is beyond crazy

 

[Milspec]

Radiation hardening - Wikipedia

Refer to value engineering. All aspects for MKI Avionics and Harness wentt through DFMEA in Gate I.

 

[randomradio]

Refer to value engineering. All aspects for MKI Avionics and Harness wentt through DFMEA in Gate I.

The MKIs are not nuke hardened. Apart from that, all military grade avionics do go through some levels of hardening, but not at the level the French do it. That's why all our nuke capable aircraft are French.

 

[Milspec]

Your conclusions are wrong. The 36 Rafales are good enough to counter the current version of the J-20 for some time, so the IAF does not have to deal with the paralysis of meeting an opponent that cannot be handled. But the announcement that the J-20 is now in service is a shocker.

PAK FA is not ready for induction and the F-35 is not a capable counter to the J-20.

The IAF has been desperately awaiting the induction of the Rafale for a decade now.

To summarize:
Jaguars are good till 2040,
MKI are useless beyond 2025
MKI numbers, capability, modularity, scalability, > Unplanned by IAF.
Rafale(/Sliced Bread) on the other hand > Well planned.
Jaguar F125 honewell engine and Elta 2052 radar's game changer for Jaguars.
MKI upgrades just good enough for 10 years.
China will field J20 at a rate of 50-75/year
And 36 Rafales will be good to counter it.

Am I missing anything else?

 

[The enlightened]

thats not what you claimed though, In modern history there has been not a single platform that has seen 75 units being commissioned in a year.

66 F-35's delivered last year. 90 this year. And this is still 'Low Rate Initial Production'. 160 will be delivered in FRP annually. You think the Chinese can't do half of that?

Meanwhile USA despite of having F-35 and F-22 rushes ahead with PCA to counter J-20 while our jabaaz qalandars think ancient MKI are enough.

 

[Milspec]

Why do you want to generalize?

All aircraft are mission specific. Jaguar cannot be used for SEAD/DEAD, but it can perform strike. So it depends on the target. The Jaguar's job is to deliver a payload in a permissible environment, even if it's localized and temporary. So it doesn't matter even if it's 2060, the Jaguar will continue to remain relevant to the end of its time. It's the AS's job to create a permissible environment, which the MKI most definitely can no longer do.

Now a MKI can easily conduct SEAD/DEAD, FAS, CAP, and the dreaded "Deep strike"/Air Interdiction with the same exact efficiency with more payload and faster cruising speed that the venerable aircraft can which will endure till the end of times.
I am quite curious to know this innate desire tho sh1t on the MKI?

When your new home is missing furniture, you don't go out and buy a new home. No matter how expensive the furniture is, we have no choice but to buy it.

The same with Rafale. Rafale remains a viable option.

hmm but if you want to weld a steel railing for your terrace so your kids don't fall off, you don't hold off till you can afford to buy a Laser welder, when you can go out a get a Mig welder to do the job. IAF has had a dubious record of acquisitions, faulty projection and acquisitions (by your own accord of excess MKI) there is no saying thier projection for need for Rafales are accurate.

The F-15E cannot create a permissible environment, it's only a strike aircraft.

You sure > its again an all weather Multirole Fighter.

The IAF isn't to blame for it. Do you recall the IAF actually expected the FGFA's IOC to be in 2019? They have even argued for a 6-year induction timescale for the FGFA.

I am sure Iaf is not be blammed for anything.

 

[The enlightened]

I am not referring to injection molding and assembling semiconductors or smelting pig iron. The emphasis is on ground up system level product development, where China is no where close to US. And When it does catch up I would be the first one to recognize it. It will one day, but its not now and from the indicators that we see from innovation that comes from china in the sphere defense related developments it doesn't seem that in the next 5 years china will be producing 75 fifth gen fighters in a year (also the fact that russia may not give em 150 Al31 in a calendar year which might throw a wrench in the scenario). But yes I do believe that China cannot build 75 J20's ina calendar year and it's not about intentionally trying to malign chinese capability but my opinion of the state of defense innovation.

What exactly are you trying to say? Where is the bottleneck? China has already developed the J20 from ground up ( MiG drawings or not).

They already have indigenous engines. Perhaps not as mature but that won't take a very long time. Al31 is just a stop-gap. Nobody ever accused it of being a fifth gen engine (no supercruise or IR reduction). China already showed its ability to mass produce Mig-21 clones (@120/year IIRC). I have already informed you that it is indeed possible to mass produce aircrafts which you clearly didn't know. F-16's at its peak were made at the rate of 1 per day!

The only bottleneck to mass J-20 production is the number they eventually want and its resultant production schedule. @randomradio is correct about those numbers.

 

[randomradio]

Now a MKI can easily conduct SEAD/DEAD, FAS, CAP, and the dreaded "Deep strike"/Air Interdiction with the same exact with more payload and faster cruising speed that the venerable aircraft which will endure till the end of times.
I am quite curious to know this innate desire tho sh1t on the MKI?

The MKI's roles will be relegated to simple stuff once FGFAs arrive.

Anyway, the MKI cannot perform SEAD/DEAD except shoot missiles from far away.

hmm but if you want to weld a steel railing for your terrace so your kids don't fall off, you don't hold off till you can afford to buy a Laser welded, when you can go out a get a Mig welder to do the job. IAF has had a dubious record of acquisitions, faulty projection and acquisitions (by your own accord of excess MKI) there is no saying thier projection for need for Rafales are accurate.

IAF was forced to buy more MKIs. It wasn't a choice, it was compulsion. They chose your Mig welder at the time. Now even that is passe. Even the Mig welder no longer cuts it.

You sure > its again an all weather Multirole Fighter.

The F-15 can fire air to air missiles, that's about it. It doesn't do air superiority.

I am sure Iaf is not be blammed for anything.

Yes. Because they don't negotiate tenders.

 

[Milspec]

The MKI's roles will be relegated to simple stuff once FGFAs arrive.

Anyway, the MKI cannot perform SEAD/DEAD except shoot missiles from far away.

Sorry but I call BS on that too.

IAF was forced to buy more MKIs. It wasn't a choice, it was compulsion. They chose your Mig welder at the time. Now even that is passe. Even the Mig welder no longer cuts it.

Mighty IAF being forced?

The F-15 can fire air to air missiles, that's about it. It doesn't do air superiority.

Say that to USAF, may be all the brains were just granted to IAF.

Yes. Because they don't negotiate tenders.

Oh yes they do. They are always the part negotiation. Or else how would the ACM tyagi get millions for his bro?

 

[Milspec]

What exactly are you trying to say? Where is the bottleneck? China has already developed the J20 from ground up ( MiG drawings or not).

They already have indigenous engines. Perhaps not as mature but that won't take a very long time. Al31 is just a stop-gap. Nobody ever accused it of being a fifth gen engine (no supercruise or IR reduction). China already showed its ability to mass produce Mig-21 clones (@120/year IIRC). I have already informed you that it is indeed possible to mass produce aircrafts which you clearly didn't know. F-16's at its peak were made at the rate of 1 per day!

The only bottleneck to mass J-20 production is the number they eventually want and its resultant production schedule. @randomradio is correct about those numbers.

What I am trying to say?
China cannot achieve a production rate of 75 J20 Fifth Gen Aircrafts In a Calendar year in my opinion in the next five years. Hope that clarifies it. Chinese aerospace might be mighty but still pale to the F16 program, when an article mentions a production rate of 1 /day, it refers to takt time and not necessarily a turnkey of cranking out 260 aircrafts in a year. Such tuning of Production line takes a significant number of years for endless vsa and lean transformations to achieve that state in a production line. The Fortworth line that you are tomtom-ing actually was producing the aircraft since 75 and only achieved three shift takt in June of 87. Can China achieve a 75 J20's in a year, sure it can. Can that happen in the next 5 years as our friend suggest- I dont think so.

If I am proven wrong I will apologize. And I assure I will still be here in that time frame. That's about it.

 

[vstol Jockey]

@vstol Jockey
What do you think of the Jaguars range versus the MKI?

I will take your claim with a lot of salt.

 

[randomradio]

I will take your claim with a lot of salt.

How so? 3600Km versus 3000Km.