Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Milspec]

MKI can be used for strike roles, that doesn't mean it's been designed for strike roles.

MKI isn't a panacea for all our problems. I will again have to take you back to how maintenance intensive, time consuming and expensive the MKI really is. The fact is the IAF doesn't need more than 200 MKI. But we have 270 only because we haven't properly replaced our older jets with other cheaper and easier to operate alternatives.
.

Again :
MKI from Day one > Air Superiority + Air Interdiction (In most IAF Brochures classified as Air Dominance)

Jaguar> Deep Penetration Strike

Deep Penetration Strike = Also called Deep Air Support = Another name for Air Interdiction.

MKI = Air Superiority + Air Interdiction.

Last batch of MKI's still in production in 2019, trust me they are not toast by 2025. Especially when IAF does not have wit to conduct a single acquisition with the slightest bit of professionalism.

Also surprised why would SFC float a proposal for Nuclear "strike" role for such a poor performing aircraft.

MKI isn't a panacea for all our problems. I will again have to take you back to how maintenance intensive, time consuming and expensive the MKI really is. The fact is the IAF doesn't need more than 200 MKI. But we have 270 only because we haven't properly replaced our older jets with other cheaper and easier to operate alternatives.
.

And Did I force IAF to buy 270, original order was just for 140.
It was IAF that was incredibly impressed by the platform and ballooned the order, at that time was the Air staff HQ was sleeping and kept ordering MKI like they were patialas in the mess ?
and FYI most of serviceability issues of MKI and Mig 29 lie with incompetent imbeciles of IAF BRD's. I have seen them in action not one is even fit for a mechanics position in HAL, and most of the times when they retire from service, cannot make in HAL in the entrance tests.

 

[dadeechi]

HAL fully backs the FGFA.

Congress-HAL-Russia need to be seen as one single group.

Congress favors Russia while BJP favors West.

PSUs like HAL have always been Russia's preferred partners while West prefers private Indian partners.

IAF's first preference is French (RAFALEs/Mirage) and second preference is non-Russian (SU-30/35, MIG-29/35, PAK-FA/FGFA) and non-Indian (Marut/LCA/MCA).

IAF wants to avoid the repeat of M2K scenario for RALALEs. They were forced by MOD/GoI then to go for MIGs curtailing the M2K numbers.

IAF would only agree to go for F-16s after enough number of Rafales have been procured. They will stone wall the F-16 deal being pushed by Modi by showing their superfluous love for LCA MK1A or LCA MK2 to buy time.

 

[randomradio]

So IAF acquired 300 odd aircrafts with one foot in the grave? hmm interesting.

All fighter aircraft have a 20 year period of relevance. MKI is approaching that. The MKI was good back in the 2000s, not so much now.

Now they require MLU to stay relevant.

 

[randomradio]

Lets see, Every chance to earn kick backs, IAF has capitalized. PC7 from day stank in the dealings, with the ACM going to lengths that they dont need a home grow trainer. The erstwhile ACM even going down the road to earn kick backs on Augusta Westland. And if you have anydoubts try talking to contractor of a BRD how honest the Garrison engineers are when comes to any MES contracts. there is a 20% cut even for local purchases thats how deep the rot is set in IAF.

RfI's sent out in 2008 still could not be completed till date, if that not a bungled up acquisition, then what exactly is dear?

There's no illegal money to be made in GTG.

 

[randomradio]

Again :
MKI from Day one > Air Superiority + Air Interdiction (In most IAF Brochures classified as Air Dominance)

Jaguar> Deep Penetration Strike

Deep Penetration Strike = Also called Deep Air Support = Another name for Air Interdiction.

MKI = Air Superiority + Air Interdiction.

Last batch of MKI's still in production in 2019, trust me they are not toast by 2025. Especially when IAF does not have wit to conduct a single acquisition with the slightest bit of professionalism.

Speak to any air force officer, he will tell you the MKI is obsolete compared to all the stuff coming out elsewhere. The aircraft requires upgrades now.

Also surprised why would SFC float a proposal for Nuclear "strike" role for such a poor performing aircraft.

No MKIs have been earmarked for the SFC.

And Did I force IAF to buy 270, original order was just for 140.
It was IAF that was incredibly impressed by the platform and ballooned the order, at that time was the Air staff HQ was sleeping and kept ordering MKI like they were patialas in the mess ?
and FYI most of serviceability issues of MKI and Mig 29 lie with incompetent imbeciles of IAF BRD's. I have seen them in action not one is even fit for a mechanics position in HAL, and most of the times when they retire from service, cannot make in HAL in the entrance tests.

The MKI's serviceability is fine. It requires a better flow of spares and they are working on that now.

Don't forget that we had 450 Mig-21s and 110 Mig-23s at the time. The MKI fleet reaching 270 was a quirk of fate, not a deliberate attempt at gainfully raising fleet numbers. We should have been inducting the LCA Tejas before the MKI reached 230.

 

[Milspec]

You didn't understand. All these are single role aircraft for each mission. Okay, you want to use MKI as strike, then that MKI will stay as a striker from take off to landing. It's only very recently that the MKI has achieved some levels of swing role capability.

Lets agree to disagree, I have worked with the engineers who were part of the team that worked on transitioning of Mig29's to MKI for trombay high CAP. During the process multiple sorties of maritime strike loadout of KH35 and K31 along the R27 ER/ET, and R73 were tested to validate maritime strike and Air Sup roles. Similarly there are multiple instances of full strike configs that would still carry R27/R73 along not to join the fight , but for contingencies.

France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills
Dassault describes its Rafale as being an "omnirole" fighter, a tag that it says denotes the type's ability to perform multiple mission types simultaneously. This differs from the widely adopted multi-role description used by its rivals largely as a result of the aircraft's ability to provide its pilot with data fused from onboard sensors, it says.

A bit gimmicky, as the disadvantage of sticking a light weight Air to air missile comes at the cost of reducing a PGM or a ground attack bomb, for the strike role, but getting 2 additional aam in air superiority is not that big of an advantage. And that is why you have dedicated air sup escorts for strike packages.

Yes, because it's all mission specific. As long as the MKI does its job in protecting the Jaguar, the Jaguar can deliver its payload. That's its purpose. But if the MKI fails, the Jaguar will fail obviously. And the failure rate of the MKI will keep increasing as time passes. This is what we call obsolescence.

Ohh now thats complete BS. MKI's fail in air combat is the worst propagated lie I have heard. In indian context MKI's can still hold its own against anything the chinese or the Pakistanis can throw against it.

But that isn't the point I am making. We already have too many MKIs. Even if you buy 500 MKIs, the IAF will still insist on the Rafales.

Sure IAF has delivered such gems like the Mig23's and Mig27's along with Jaguars to the fleet. We should be a little more inquisitive about the rationale behind its numbers.

 

[Milspec]

Yes, because it's all mission specific. As long as the MKI does its job in protecting the Jaguar, the Jaguar can deliver its payload. That's its purpose. But if the MKI fails, the Jaguar will fail obviously. And the failure rate of the MKI will keep increasing as time passes. This is what we call obsolescence.

Actually obsolescence refers to being outdated , no longer in use, not needed in service - Very Much like your beloved Jaguars, which are retired by every known decent flying force around the world, not supported by its manufacturere. MKI on the other hand being the very system on which Su30Sm and Su30 MKM which were ordered by Russia and Malaysia are far from being obsolete.

 

[randomradio]

Lets agree to disagree, I have worked with the engineers who were part of the team that worked on transitioning of Mig29's to MKI for trombay high CAP. During the process multiple sorties of maritime strike loadout of KH35 and K31 along the R27 ER/ET, and R73 were tested to validate maritime strike and Air Sup roles. Similarly there are multiple instances of full strike configs that would still carry R27/R73 along not to join the fight , but for contingencies.

You haven't understood my point though. The MKI is a mission specific multirole.

A bit gimmicky, as the disadvantage of sticking a light weight Air to air missile comes at the cost of reducing a PGM or a ground attack bomb, for the strike role, but getting 2 additional aam in air superiority is not that big of an advantage. And that is why you have dedicated air sup escorts for strike packages.

It's not gimmicky, it's a real capability.

https://fightersweep.com/3818/typhoon-swing-role-part-1/
“Swing-role describes the capability to switch between different roles within a sortie, whereas multi-role and multi-mission implies the ability to reconfigure air platforms for different roles and missions between sorties.”

Ohh now thats complete BS. MKI's fail in air combat is the worst propagated lie I have heard. In indian context MKI's can still hold its own against anything the chinese or the Pakistanis can throw against it.

I have already mentioned the years after which the MKI will fail.

With the J-20 in operation service, even the incomplete one will dominate the MKI. In less than 10 years, the PAF will be operating the J-31 as well. The introduction of both spells doom to the MKI.

 

[randomradio]

Actually obsolescence refers to being outdated , no longer in use, not needed in service - Very Much like your beloved Jaguars, which are retired by every known decent flying force around the world, not supported by its manufacturere. MKI on the other hand being the very system on which Su30Sm and Su30 MKM which were ordered by Russia and Malaysia are far from being obsolete.

The Su-30SM has relevance against an air force like the PAF but not against first tier air forces. Even the Russians are currently using the Su-35 as their primary AS fighter, it's a whole step ahead compared to the MKI.

The Jaguar's standard for obsolescence is much higher. It is only as obsolete as the AS aircraft that support it. As a dedicated strike aircraft, an upgraded Jaguar will always remain relevant. That's why we are now adding an AESA radar, a new integrated EW suite, a new engine etc. Plus, the Jaguar outranges the MKI, which is a massive advantage.

The standard for obsolescence for air dominance aircraft is much lower.

Obsolescence and outdated are not the same.

 

[Milspec]

I have already mentioned the years after which the MKI will fail.

With the J-20 in operation service, even the incomplete one will dominate the MKI. In less than 10 years, the PAF will be operating the J-31 as well. The introduction of both spells doom to the MKI.

Yes you do at one hand you say MKI are toast post 2025 and in the same breath you tout Jaguars serving for another 20 years. I really cannot follow that rationale. Whether you like it or not MKI's will remain the back bone of the Indian Air Force. With its future upgrades with its sensor suite and revamped weapons profile it will remain relevant till 2050.

 

[Milspec]

The Su-30SM has relevance against an air force like the PAF but not against first tier air forces. Even the Russians are currently using the Su-35 as their primary AS fighter, it's a whole step ahead compared to the MKI.

The Jaguar's standard for obsolescence is much higher. It is only as obsolete as the AS aircraft that support it. As a dedicated strike aircraft, an upgraded Jaguar will always remain relevant. That's why we are now adding an AESA radar, a new integrated EW suite, a new engine etc. Plus, the Jaguar outranges the MKI, which is a massive advantage.

The standard for obsolescence for air dominance aircraft is much lower.

Obsolescence and outdated are not the same.

Wait what, Jaguar out-ranges MKI? In which world?

 

[Milspec]

The Su-30SM has relevance against an air force like the PAF but not against first tier air forces. Even the Russians are currently using the Su-35 as their primary AS fighter, it's a whole step ahead compared to the MKI.

The Jaguar's standard for obsolescence is much higher. It is only as obsolete as the AS aircraft that support it. As a dedicated strike aircraft, an upgraded Jaguar will always remain relevant. That's why we are now adding an AESA radar, a new integrated EW suite, a new engine etc. Plus, the Jaguar outranges the MKI, which is a massive advantage.

The standard for obsolescence for air dominance aircraft is much lower.

Obsolescence and outdated are not the same.

Read again in entirety>" obsolescence refers to being outdated , no longer in use, not needed in service" not just being outdated as you conveniently cherry pick.

And we are adding upgrades because btw becuase breguet now absorbed into Dassualt and BAE flatly refused to support any upgrades on the Jaguar. When the Aircraft was bought it had the worst navigational and targeting system, even worse than the ones one mig27M.

Next wonder why the french and english decommissioned its Jaguars if it was indeed that relevant? Even oman and Ecuador retired theirs. It has always been a POS aircraft that IAF never needed but somehow now is relevant till 2040.

 

[randomradio]

Yes you do at one hand you say MKI are toast post 2025 and in the same breath you tout Jaguars serving for another 20 years. I really cannot follow that rationale. Whether you like it or not MKI's will remain the back bone of the Indian Air Force. With its future upgrades with its sensor suite and revamped weapons profile it will remain relevant till 2050.

I already told you. Strike aircraft are held to different standards.

And I know the MKI will remain the backbone of the IAF, but that doesn't mean it's not going to be useless pretty soon. MKI will be an AS fighter that cannot fight the J-20.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

@randomradio Are you sure your Account has not been hacked by some one

 

[Bali78]

Wait what, Jaguar out-ranges MKI? In which world?

He is probably referring to low altitude range. For Su-30 MKI it's 1270 kms without in flight refueling. For Jaguar it's ~2000km with external fuel. Don't know the low altitude range of Jaguar without external fuel though.

 

[Milspec]

You haven't understood my point though. The MKI is a mission specific multirole.

And Rafales are not mission specific, it will conjure Hammers, Exocets and Meteors out of thin air onto its hard points ? Every load out is mission specific. If you load out rafales wit two Matra Magics ad rest Hammers, it wont be swinging into hunting F16's in BVR at 100km magically.

 

[randomradio]

Wait what, Jaguar out-ranges MKI? In which world?

In all worlds. The Jaguar has more range and comes with DTs. Its range is 3600Km and will improve further with the new engines.

 

[randomradio]

Read again in entirety>" obsolescence refers to being outdated , no longer in use, not needed in service" not just being outdated as you conveniently cherry pick.

And we are adding upgrades because btw becuase breguet now absorbed into Dassualt and BAE flatly refused to support any upgrades on the Jaguar. When the Aircraft was bought it had the worst navigational and targeting system, even worse than the ones one mig27M.

Next wonder why the french and english decommissioned its Jaguars if it was indeed that relevant? Even oman and Ecuador retired theirs. It has always been a POS aircraft that IAF never needed but somehow now is relevant till 2040.

The Jaguar is one of our most important aircraft around, that's why it has the nuclear missions as well.

Jaguars were phased out in other air forces due to compulsion, not choice. But if we are to replace it, we will need the Rafale, not the MKI.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

MKI will be an AS fighter that cannot fight the J-20.

J 20 will not be fully Operational for Ten years

Even PAK FA is struggling right now

So how can J 20 which has Only an external stealthy shape can be called a stealth aircraft

 

[Milspec]

In all worlds. The Jaguar has more range and comes with DTs. Its range is 3600Km and will improve further with the new engines.

In all honesty, Please go to any pilot in IAF and confirm your ranges.