Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[LX1111]

Sorry bro, but my knowledge of Mandarin is as good as big fat zero. Kindly summarize what's written here. I would also like to know if PL-15E also has an AESA seeker like the Chinese domestic version? Yes or no?

The core seeker technology of PL-15 is not AESA but started to be used in active-passive composite guidance. When using passive guidance mode, it uses two-way data connection to receiver radar information,
In this case, it can be more concealed and will not trigger a missile warning. At the same time, the two-way data link can also use A to shoot B.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The core seeker technology of PL-15 is not AESA

Looks like @Ashwin was correct regarding this matter

but started to be used in active-passive composite guidance. When using passive guidance mode, it uses two-way data connection to receiver radar information,
In this case, it can be more concealed and will not trigger a missile warning. At the same time, the two-way data link can also use A to shoot B.

If PL-15 doesn't have AESA seeker then I wonder why everyone claims so? Also, R-77M has gone into full scale production late last year and it definitely has a Ku-band AESA seeker and twin-pulse rocket motor. Our own Astra 2 also has the aforementioned qualities.

So looks like R-77M/Astra2>> PL-15(if it hasn't got AESA seeker!) @randomradio

 

[LX1111]

Looks like @Ashwin was correct regarding this matter

If PL-15 doesn't have AESA seeker then I wonder why everyone claims so? Also, R-77M has gone into full scale production late last year and it definitely has a Ku-band AESA seeker and twin-pulse rocket motor. Our own Astra 2 also has the aforementioned qualities.

So looks like R-77M/Astra2>> PL-15(if it hasn't got AESA seeker!) @randomradio

I did not say that PL-15 does not have AESA seeker, AESA is very simple, I am just talking about the role of two-way data link and composite seeker,
This is a different concept and way of fighting, this is where it is ahead of India and Russia
As for the R77M, although it uses AESA, according to public data, its performance is not even as good as the Japanese AA4M guide head more than ten years ago.
Indian data is unknown,

 

[randomradio]

composite seeker,

You seem to be referring to a digital antenna, which can function with active and passive modes simultaneously.

It's a standard feature for an AESA seeker, which is why it has taken this long to put it on missiles globally.

 

[LX1111]

You seem to be referring to a digital antenna, which can function with active and passive modes simultaneously.

It's a standard feature for an AESA seeker, which is why it has taken this long to put it on missiles globally.

No, passive guidance is to unilaterally accept the opponent's radar signal for guidance,
According to a common active-passive compound guidance,
Before launch, the on-board computer presets the passive antenna pointing to ensure that the wide beam covers the attack target at a long distance.
After launching, the passive mode works first, and the signal sorting is preloaded with information (time-frequency pulse, etc.) according to the target radar signal, sorting and searching for and locking the target from a large number of pulses entering the passive antenna, extracting the angle information of the target, and implementing angle tracking.
In passive mode angular tracking, the active antenna is linked to point to the target. When the target enters the detection range of the active head, the main wave is turned on to detect and identify the target, and the distance, speed and line-of-sight angular velocity are measured to complete the active tracking closed loop. Under this process, the passive mode plays the role of target search, medium guidance and active terminal guidance.

 

[Rajput Lion]

No, passive guidance is to unilaterally accept the opponent's radar signal for guidance,
According to a common active-passive compound guidance,
Before launch, the on-board computer presets the passive antenna pointing to ensure that the wide beam covers the attack target at a long distance.
After launching, the passive mode works first, and the signal sorting is preloaded with information (time-frequency pulse, etc.) according to the target radar signal, sorting and searching for and locking the target from a large number of pulses entering the passive antenna, extracting the angle information of the target, and implementing angle tracking.
In passive mode angular tracking, the active antenna is linked to point to the target. When the target enters the detection range of the active head, the main wave is turned on to detect and identify the target, and the distance, speed and line-of-sight angular velocity are measured to complete the active tracking closed loop. Under this process, the passive mode plays the role of target search, medium guidance and active terminal guidance.

Does the Pakistani version also have this same "composite seeker!!" and you still haven't answered why PL-15E exported to Pak has only 145kms range vs 200kms for the Chinese version??!!

You seem to be referring to a digital antenna, which can function with active and passive modes simultaneously.

It's a standard feature for an AESA seeker, which is why it has taken this long to put it on missiles globally.

I think he is confused between missiles active seeker and passive LOAL engagement through the usage of 2-way data link.

Our Chinese friend must understand that our Astra 1 also has this same 2-way data-link tech that he is harping about.

 

[randomradio]

No, passive guidance is to unilaterally accept the opponent's radar signal for guidance,
According to a common active-passive compound guidance,
Before launch, the on-board computer presets the passive antenna pointing to ensure that the wide beam covers the attack target at a long distance.
After launching, the passive mode works first, and the signal sorting is preloaded with information (time-frequency pulse, etc.) according to the target radar signal, sorting and searching for and locking the target from a large number of pulses entering the passive antenna, extracting the angle information of the target, and implementing angle tracking.
In passive mode angular tracking, the active antenna is linked to point to the target. When the target enters the detection range of the active head, the main wave is turned on to detect and identify the target, and the distance, speed and line-of-sight angular velocity are measured to complete the active tracking closed loop. Under this process, the passive mode plays the role of target search, medium guidance and active terminal guidance.

All that is done by seekers even normally. It's just a function of software and battery power, which is not a lot when the seeker functions as a receiver. In fact, home on jam can work from the get-go.

 

[LX1111]

All that is done by seekers even normally. It's just a function of software and battery power, which is not a lot when the seeker functions as a receiver. In fact, home on jam can work from the get-go.

These two underlying logics are different. How can they be a function? The deployment of these two systems on a servo mechanism itself is a test of the electronics industry.

 

[LX1111]

I think he is confused between missiles active seeker and passive LOAL engagement through the usage of 2-way data link.

Our Chinese friend must understand that our Astra 1 also has this same 2-way data-link tech that he is harping about.

I have not seen any public data showing that India has a two-way data link. Now Indian missiles are still using Russian seekers. Even the United States has only started to use two-way data links on AIM120D, while India’s Pride Meteor missiles only have one-way data links.

 

[LX1111]

Does the Pakistani version also have this same "composite seeker!!" and you still haven't answered why PL-15E exported to Pak has only 145kms range vs 200kms for the Chinese version??!!

The dual-pulse missile itself can use different pulse intervals to achieve different ranges and energy management. According to public data, when the pulse interval is 30s, the range can reach 180KM. As for Pakistan, no one knows which model he uses

I think he is confused between missiles active seeker and passive LOAL engagement through the usage of 2-way data link.

The two-way data link and the composite seeker are two different things in themselves, both of which are new technologies applied by PL15.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I have not seen any public data showing that India has a two-way data link. Now Indian missiles are still using Russian seekers. Even the United States has only started to use two-way data links on AIM120D, while India’s Pride Meteor missiles only have one-way data links.

Lol, you've no idea about the latest Indian advancements in BVR missile tech. Read this:

Being smoke-free and equipped with a two-way data link, the Astra Mk1’s stealth capabilities are also more than the US-made BVRAAM

Link: Why The ‘Astra’ Missile Is More Than Just Another Weapon For India – Defence View

Russian seeker is already replaced with indigenous one. And very soon that will be replaced by an AESA seeker. Astra 2 will have that Ku-band AESA seeker and dual pulse rocket motor from the start. Astra 2 will match and exceed your PL-15 in performance.

 

[randomradio]

These two underlying logics are different. How can they be a function? The deployment of these two systems on a servo mechanism itself is a test of the electronics industry.

I'm referring to AESA seekers. AESAs allow double antenna compounding through array choreography. Even triple compounding is possible. As many as you want depending on the size of the array. Non-AESA designs can use independent antennas, but that's quite unrealistic for missile seekers, it's instead used on radars, like X band antennas with L band IFF.

It's a system that's been used by cellphone companies for decades.

How else do you think cellphones allow both transmission and reception at the same time? You've been holding such an antenna every day in your own hands. It's what they call full duplex communication.

Older seekers were simplex, and now AESA seekers provide full duplex communication. Analog AESAs are half duplex, digital AESAs are full duplex.

Anyway, the Astra missile has a two-way datalink. Meteor also has a two-way link, but the Rafale's radar only allows transmission (there's an option to upgrade), so it's a problem with the radar. As per the French, a two-way link is not necessary because the Rafale's sensors can make up for it. The only realistic purpose of the link is to inform the fighter that the seeker has locked on. Since the flight time between the seeker locking on and impact is just 10 seconds, it has no real alternative uses. Typhoon and Gripen have the two-way link operational.

 

[LX1111]

Lol, you've no idea about the latest Indian advancements in BVR missile tech. Read this:



Link: Why The ‘Astra’ Missile Is More Than Just Another Weapon For India – Defence View

Russian seeker is already replaced with indigenous one. And very soon that will be replaced by an AESA seeker. Astra 2 will have that Ku-band AESA seeker and dual pulse rocket motor from the start. Astra 2 will match and exceed your PL-15 in performance.

According to the public reports I can find, India will start experimenting with domestically produced boot heads in December 2022. As for the two-way data link, I haven’t found any official reports from India. The article you quoted is not very credible.

 

[randomradio]

I think he is confused between missiles active seeker and passive LOAL engagement through the usage of 2-way data link.

He's referring to simultaneous operation of both the active seeker and home-on-jam functions using the same seeker. Older seekers couldn't do it together. Nothing to do with datalinks. These are fire and forget missiles after all.

 

[LX1111]

I'm referring to AESA seekers. AESAs allow double antenna compounding through array choreography. Even triple compounding is possible. As many as you want depending on the size of the array. Non-AESA designs can use independent antennas, but that's quite unrealistic for missile seekers, it's instead used on radars, like X band antennas with L band IFF.

It's a system that's been used by cellphone companies for decades.
View attachment 27428

How else do you think cellphones allow both transmission and reception at the same time? You've been holding such an antenna every day in your own hands. It's what they call full duplex communication.

Older seekers were simplex, and now AESA seekers provide full duplex communication. Analog AESAs are half duplex, digital AESAs are full duplex.

Anyway, the Astra missile has a two-way datalink. Meteor also has a two-way link, but the Rafale's radar only allows transmission (there's an option to upgrade), so it's a problem with the radar. As per the French, a two-way link is not necessary because the Rafale's sensors can make up for it. The only realistic purpose of the link is to inform the fighter that the seeker has locked on. Since the flight time between the seeker locking on and impact is just 10 seconds, it has no real alternative uses. Typhoon and Gripen have the two-way link operational.

I mean passive detection, detecting electromagnetic signals from the target (passive guidance) I think we are talking about different things, also, the difference between digital radar and analog radar is mainly the back-end processing, as for the two-way data link, the most important What is CEC cooperative operations, has nothing to do with the sensor

 

[LX1111]

I'm referring to AESA seekers. AESAs allow double antenna compounding through array choreography. Even triple compounding is possible. As many as you want depending on the size of the array. Non-AESA designs can use independent antennas, but that's quite unrealistic for missile seekers, it's instead used on radars, like X band antennas with L band IFF.

It's a system that's been used by cellphone companies for decades.
View attachment 27428

How else do you think cellphones allow both transmission and reception at the same time? You've been holding such an antenna every day in your own hands. It's what they call full duplex communication.

Older seekers were simplex, and now AESA seekers provide full duplex communication. Analog AESAs are half duplex, digital AESAs are full duplex.

Anyway, the Astra missile has a two-way datalink. Meteor also has a two-way link, but the Rafale's radar only allows transmission (there's an option to upgrade), so it's a problem with the radar. As per the French, a two-way link is not necessary because the Rafale's sensors can make up for it. The only realistic purpose of the link is to inform the fighter that the seeker has locked on. Since the flight time between the seeker locking on and impact is just 10 seconds, it has no real alternative uses. Typhoon and Gripen have the two-way link operational.

Can I understand that you use the radar receiver to detect the electromagnetic signal of the target? What are you kidding?

 

[Ashwin]

According to the public reports I can find, India will start experimenting with domestically produced boot heads in December 2022. As for the two-way data link, I haven’t found any official reports from India. The article you quoted is not very credible.

That wiki is wrong. We first tested Ku-band seeker 3-4 years ago and its now in production with latest order. We are totally self sufficient on seeker front that includes regular SAMs and BMD missiles.

Astra always had Lock-on After Launch capability.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Anyway, the Astra missile has a two-way datalink. Meteor also has a two-way link, but the Rafale's radar only allows transmission (there's an option to upgrade), so it's a problem with the radar. As per the French, a two-way link is not necessary because the Rafale's sensors can make up for it. The only realistic purpose of the link is to inform the fighter that the seeker has locked on. Since the flight time between the seeker locking on and impact is just 10 seconds, it has no real alternative uses. Typhoon and Gripen have the two-way link operational.

Nope. A 2 way data-link is absolutely mandatory for 3rd party targeting. The shooter doesn't need to emit or track the target whatsoever. Just fire the missile and turn away allowing AWACS or some other fighter to guide it till it goes Active.

Not having 2 way data link on our Rafale for Meteor is a big miss. 2-way data link is now integral to network-centric warfare.

According to the public reports I can find, India will start experimenting with domestically produced boot heads in December 2022. As for the two-way data link, I haven’t found any official reports from India. The article you quoted is not very credible.

Your info is outdated. Very soon all our BVR missiles are going to come with AESA seeker and that too using GaN chips. Good luck evading that.

 

[Ashwin]

Your info is outdated. Very soon all our BVR missiles are going to come with AESA seeker and that too using GaN chips. Good luck evading that.

You need to calm down with your unnecessary boasting. It's very immature and unnecessary.

We don't even have 100 Astra operational. Total order is 250 !. We have 15 times more operational Ukranian BVRs.

If airforce had one third of your confidence they would have placed additional orders, isn't?

 

[LX1111]

Not having 2 way data link on our Rafale for Meteor is a big miss. 2-way data link is now integral to network-centric warfare.

The Mika missile data link on the Rafale conflicts with the Meteor data link, only one-way data link