Sukhoi Su-30MKI

randomradio said:
The emitters in the roots and someday the ones on the inlets will take care of that.

Plus the Rafale also uses low altitude for survivability, so the Rafale's aspect is different when theradar is looking down at it.
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Yes, F5 upgrade will totally transform Rafale as it will have conformal radars and emitters all across its skin.

MRFA is a direct shoot between Rafale F5 and F-35 Block-4 for us. However, as per latest reports Indian Government and French Gov./Dassault are discussing local production of at least 100 Rafales in India for both IAF and IN. If that goes through then MRFA will be dead.
 
randomradio said:
EA is the least important. Where EA is used primarily in air combat is when defeating missiles. Meaning you are getting shot in the first place.
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EA is for basically attacking ground based emitters to create gaps to go through for strike missions.
randomradio said:
EW doesn't really hide aircraft. It just drowns out aircraft in clutter, you are still getting shot at first.
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As per SAAB, the latest GaN based EW suite(very similar to MKI UPG's)turns Gripen-E into a ghost. They believe it can hide it.
randomradio said:
All that's in very general terms. The F-15EX can't defeat the F-22 no matter what it does. But it will fare better against the S-400, because that's really ultimately what the F-15EX will use its EW against.
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Without AWACS, formation of 5 upgraded MKIs vs 5 Raptors. MKI is defeating Raptor in BVR as crazy as it sounds.

But Raptors guided by E-7s with full USAF gambit and MKI is going to be toast. That's why I said, we need to destroy KJ-500 to give MKI upg. a fighting chance against J-20. With S-400 and our long range ADS like ERADS coming online, we can definitely push Chinese AWACS 500/600 kms away from action zone. MKI will also use Himalayas to its aid to hide early detection.

MKI is a formidable fighter in IAF's hands. Post upgrade, it will further its prowess.
randomradio said:
It's extremely difficult to use EW in air combat.
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You may not believe it. But SAAB think that with a combo of smart data-links and EW, Gripen-E can even counter Su-57.

I am not saying that MKI will dominate J-20. I know it's not possible. But with smart data-links where MKI is feeding info from our space, ground and land(even water) borne sensors, plus its own active/passive seeker, it will definitely hold its own at least inside our own territory. Only Su-57M is capable of dominating J-20. We need it.
 
Hydra said:
Says everything about su57
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They are talking about countering in a defensive manner and not dominating. You can't dominate a 5th gen plane with a 4th gen, no matter how evolved. Stealth will invariably more often than not guarantee first shot. That itself makes you defensive. Either retreat or die.

Only way to fight LO is to combine all your land, air and space base assets and create a complete picture of battlespace to try to thwart their attack. And even that is extremely hard to do.

And SAAB believe that Gripen-E is better than F-35 too, so...:p
 
Rajput Lion said:
. You can't dominate a 5th gen plane with a 4th gen, no matter how evolved. Stealth will invariably more often than not guarantee first shot. That itself makes you defensive. Either retreat or die.
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Agreed, no gen4 can counter a fifth generation aircraft. But, thats for fifth generation. Not applicable for su57.
 
Rajput Lion said:
Yes, F5 upgrade will totally transform Rafale as it will have conformal radars and emitters all across its skin.

MRFA is a direct shoot between Rafale F5 and F-35 Block-4 for us. However, as per latest reports Indian Government and French Gov./Dassault are discussing local production of at least 100 Rafales in India for both IAF and IN. If that goes through then MRFA will be dead.
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Best case, we get a deal done fast. It's cool if MRFA is killed in exchange for a Rafale production deal, the tender will only delay it further.
Rajput Lion said:
EA is for basically attacking ground based emitters to create gaps to go through for strike missions.

As per SAAB, the latest GaN based EW suite(very similar to MKI UPG's)turns Gripen-E into a ghost. They believe it can hide it.

Without AWACS, formation of 5 upgraded MKIs vs 5 Raptors. MKI is defeating Raptor in BVR as crazy as it sounds.

But Raptors guided by E-7s with full USAF gambit and MKI is going to be toast. That's why I said, we need to destroy KJ-500 to give MKI upg. a fighting chance against J-20. With S-400 and our long range ADS like ERADS coming online, we can definitely push Chinese AWACS 500/600 kms away from action zone. MKI will also use Himalayas to its aid to hide early detection.

MKI is a formidable fighter in IAF's hands. Post upgrade, it will further its prowess.

You may not believe it. But SAAB think that with a combo of smart data-links and EW, Gripen-E can even counter Su-57.

I am not saying that MKI will dominate J-20. I know it's not possible. But with smart data-links where MKI is feeding info from our space, ground and land(even water) borne sensors, plus its own active/passive seeker, it will definitely hold its own at least inside our own territory. Only Su-57M is capable of dominating J-20. We need it.
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Saab's claims are only for Saab to believe. The Gripen is a very good jet, as are the other Eurocanards, but next gen jets have way too much of a performance gap.
 
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randomradio said:
Best case, we get a deal done fast. It's cool if MRFA is killed in exchange for a Rafale production deal, the tender will only delay it further.
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Is there any chance that IAF going for Rafale(114 examples ) and rest 80-90 F3s as direct import or local assembly
 
Hydra said:
Is there any chance that IAF going for Rafale(114 examples ) and rest 80-90 F3s as direct import or local assembly
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With MRFA we can have parallel imports on the side for 2-3 squadrons, like we did with the MKI via exercising options. IAF likes the tender route because they can ask for more jets than what was signed in parallel. So one set will come in via DRAL through the regular production process and another set will be assembled at an IAF base with most of the production happening in France. So what you said is what could happen, just with more advanced versions.
 
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It happens ONLY in India, lol:

Screenshot_20230413-154333_Chrome.jpg


https://twitter.com/x/status/1646139064410849280

@Innominate @_Anonymous_
 
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lcafanboy said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1646461101952081920

So this is the reason why not a single Pakistani Bomb hit the target and not a single AIM 120 could hit SU30mki....😊😊😊
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If this is true it gives a lot credence to the iaf version of the story. And it also show the Russki EW is far more capable. Although jamming gps based munitions isn't particularly hard.

Considering this is the case would the next war will basically be heavy infantry based maneuver warfare under huge EW and Jamming exposure making drones, aircrafts and guided artillery useless. So technically we will be fighting a high tech WW1 with base bleed artillery.
Funny how Russian style warfare always ends up making a mark.
Hydra said:
Says everything about su57
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Su-57 is a 1sqm rcs aircraft. Even a super hornet blk 3 can still pose danger to it.
 
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Lolwa said:
If this is true it gives a lot credence to the iaf version of the story. And it also show the Russki EW is far more capable. Although jamming gps based munitions isn't particularly hard.

Considering this is the case would the next war will basically be heavy infantry based maneuver warfare under huge EW and Jamming exposure making drones, aircrafts and guided artillery useless. So technically we will be fighting a high tech WW1 with base bleed artillery.
Funny how Russian style warfare always ends up making a mark.
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Russians are kings of EW. And what we've developed is much better than their's. Americans are trying to develop AI based EW, whilst our MKI just within few years from now will have AI based GaN AESA radar, AI based QWIP IRST and AI based GaN EW system. AI enabled EW suite can handle unknown threats on the fly without its threat-library recognising that signal. Just think how potent MKI is going to become with all of the above.
Lolwa said:
Su-57 is a 1sqm rcs aircraft. Even a super hornet blk 3 can still pose danger to it.
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No man, just no! Su-57 is full-on VLO(-40dBsm+) from front 45° arc. Hell even clean Su-35S has frontal RCS of 0.7m^2. The modern RAM and RAS is very very effective. Don't underestimate the Russians. They dropped Mig-21's clean frontal RCS from 3m^2 to just 0.3m^2, i.e., 10 times less with use of RAM. Even our MKI has lot more composites in its frame than people think and its clean frontal RCS is NOT that different from Su-35S'(max 20% more).
 
Lolwa said:
Any sources?
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Below 1m2 for Su-35S is common knowledge. 0.7m2 to 1m2 was also discussed early in its development. With modern RAM that can absorb wide-range of frequencies, both MKI and Su-35S are going even lower than that in future.

Su-57S may not be as stealthy as Raptor or Lightning 2 from all angles, but from front, it's as good as it gets. In a head-on BVR combat that's what matters.
 
Lolwa said:
Any sources?
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Did little bit of web-search and found this:

"Su 35 has manged to reduce its RCS better than other Su 27 variants. The improved radar stealth reduces the reflectance of the Su-35 in the X radio waveband and in the angle range of ±60°. Radar-absorbent material is applied to the engine inlets and the front stages of the engine compressor to halve the Su-35's frontal radar cross-section (RCS); the canopy was also modified to deflect radar waves.
Stealth measures:

  • Use of RAM layers throughout the structure.

  • Treatment of the air inlets with a RAM layer with a thickness between 0.7 and 1.4 mm.

  • Treatment of the face of the engine with RAM material

  • Treatment of the canopy with electro conductive materials that prevent reflection of radar waves.
With these measures Su 35 managed to reduce its RCS between 0.7 and 1 m2"

Source: Sukhoi 35 - The Super flanker


However bare in mind that this is clean frontal. With weapons mounted and other angles, RCS would be much more.
 
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Lolwa said:
Any sources?
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Russian Sukhoi Chief himself said that Su-57's RCS is going to be pretty comparable to F-22. As I posted above even Su-35S which is a far cry from being a VLO fighter has below 1m2 frontal RCS. Su-57 will have much much less than Su-35. So -40dBsm from front like Raptor is a given.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
Russian Sukhoi Chief himself said that Su-57's RCS is going to be pretty comparable to F-22. As I posted above even Su-35S which is a far cry from being a VLO fighter has below 1m2 frontal RCS. Su-57 will have much much less than Su-35. So -40dBsm from front like Raptor is a given.
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Impossible thing, the Russians are talking nonsense, 70% of the RCS value of the fighter is determined by the shape, 30% is determined by the material and coating, PLA mentioned in the speech about 2015 J-11 and JAS-39,The RCS value of Su-27 is 10-12m²，Su-35, Su-30 are basically the same number
 
LX1111 said:
Impossible thing, the Russians are talking nonsense, 70% of the RCS value of the fighter is determined by the shape, 30% is determined by the material and coating, PLA mentioned in the speech about 2015 J-11 and JAS-39,The RCS value of Su-27 is 10-12m²，Su-35, Su-30 are basically the same number
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The Russians are perfectly talking sense. The 2011 lecture/speech you're talking about was about old J-11(or baseline Su-27), thus 10m2 was correct.

I have already posted a chart from official Sukhoi presentation in this thread itself where they cut the frontal RCS with weapons from 10m2 to below 4m2. Go and check it out.
 
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