Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[randomradio]

one does not need to intimately "know" a signal to jam it. the idea that jamming capability is completely lost if the enemy is clever enough to come up with novel electronic signals for its SAMs is to court disbelief, especially as such spoofing and tricks is not new but a part of the never ending cat and mouse game

That's a general statement. But specific to the F-35, the aircraft can only jam signals that it intimately knows as of today. That's the purpose of the MDF. And the F-35 is not capable of responding to unknown signals because they have decided to remove the possibility of human intervention. It's been left to specialist aircraft with a human operator to create a jamming signal on the fly. It's not efficient, but it's the best option today.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Fighters can operate in a sensor-shooter loop, so some stay passive.

Radar + IRST against IRST alone, the latter will always lose. The J-20 will see the MKI from 400Km away, but the J-20 will be detected only about 80Km away.

The J-20 will only see MKI from 400kms away if MKI doesn't use its EW/ECM. One or two MKIs stay slightly back and use full-blown noise-jamming using uber powerful twin GaN pods and allow other MKIs or Rafale to close in.

Modern airspace during war is going to be extremely cluttered and dense. Don't think max detection is possible under that scenario.

@Innominate

Bubba J , is the above claim true or are we being taken for a ride once more ? What's your butt buddy M/s. Gen Hostage & Bogdan got to say about this ?

And last I heard that F-35 was to be the 'be all and end all' day 1 strike aircraft and E/A-18G are no more required, lol.

 

[randomradio]

The J-20 will only see MKI from 400kms away if MKI doesn't use its EW/ECM. One or two MKIs stay slightly back and use full-blown noise-jamming using uber powerful twin GaN pods and allow other MKIs or Rafale to close in.

Whether the MKI stays silent or is using EW, the J-20 will see it from 400Km away (it's just a figure of speech, the distance is way more than that). The purpose of EW is to make it harder for the J-20 to track the MKI, or at least provide enough interference that the J-20 cannot cue weapons on it. EW does not provide stealth, it's very noisy.

Meaning as long as the MKI flies, the J-20 knows exactly where it is and there's nothing the MKI can do about it.

So the tactic the MKI will use is, it will stay on the edge of the J-20's assumed missile envelope at a low-medium altitude. For example, a 200Km missile will only do 100Km at 8Km altitude, so the MKI will stay at that altitude. Simply put, the MKI will put itself at a disadvantage for the sake of survival. So the J-20 has to come up to 100Km to engage the MKI. And the IAF will need to create a wall of MKIs so the J-20 doesn't come in from the flanks or breach the center.

Once the flank or center is breached, the entire wall is dead. And during this entire time, the J-20s will be aware of exactly what all the MKIs are doing while the MKIs will only be able to spot the J-20s that are actively emitting radar signals.

Basically, in a football match, the J-20s are playing normally, whereas all the MKIs are blindfolded and can only see the ball and each other. It's not an even contest.

Our objective is to keep the wall alive until the army finishes its job. And the MKI is not up to the task.

Modern airspace during war is going to be extremely cluttered and dense. Don't think max detection is possible under that scenario.

Max detection has become meaningless today. Radar goes beyond the battlespace.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Whether the MKI stays silent or is using EW, the J-20 will see it from 400Km away (it's just a figure of speech, the distance is way more than that). The purpose of EW is to make it harder for the J-20 to track the MKI, or at least provide enough interference that the J-20 cannot cue weapons on it. EW does not provide stealth, it's very noisy.

Meaning as long as the MKI flies, the J-20 knows exactly where it is and there's nothing the MKI can do about it.

So the tactic the MKI will use is, it will stay on the edge of the J-20's assumed missile envelope at a low-medium altitude. For example, a 200Km missile will only do 100Km at 8Km altitude, so the MKI will stay at that altitude. Simply put, the MKI will put itself at a disadvantage for the sake of survival. So the J-20 has to come up to 100Km to engage the MKI. And the IAF will need to create a wall of MKIs so the J-20 doesn't come in from the flanks or breach the center.

Once the flank or center is breached, the entire wall is dead. And during this entire time, the J-20s will be aware of exactly what all the MKIs are doing while the MKIs will only be able to spot the J-20s that are actively emitting radar signals.

Basically, in a football match, the J-20s are playing normally, whereas all the MKIs are blindfolded and can only see the ball and each other. It's not an even contest.

MKI will be data-linked with our S-400, BMD, MRSAM and entire IACCS. We will spot J-20 from far. Recently Chinese found that even their mighty J-20 can't penetrate modern air defence. They got tracked and locked as per "official" Chinese report:

The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Army practiced air defense in a recent joint confrontational exercise with the Air Force, with the Air Force sending a J-20 stealth fighter jet as a mock enemy, in a move experts said on Thursday could simulate attacks by a US F-35, a type of stealth aircraft widely deployed on China's doorsteps that poses threats to China's national defense.

Despite the opposing aircraft unit's immediate change of formation, attempting to take advantage of the mountainous terrain and penetrate defense at a very low altitude, the defending side was able to lock on to the targets.

PLA Army hones air defense against stealth fighter jets using Air Force's J-20 as practice partner - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

@_Anonymous_ kindly read the above link.

Our objective is to keep the wall alive until the army finishes its job. And the MKI is not up to the task.

After upgrade it should, at least in a defensive manner linked with our ground/air/space based assets.

Max detection has become meaningless today. Radar goes beyond the battlespace.

True. But radar can be spoofed, deceived and outright jammed too. I still don't buy that MKI could be seen over 400kms by J-20. Just doesn't sound plausible to me.

 

[Rajput Lion]

@vstol Jockey

Can J-20 detect/track MKI from 400kms away? Is it possible especially under dense EM environment?

 

[Innominate]

The J-20 will only see MKI from 400kms away if MKI doesn't use its EW/ECM. One or two MKIs stay slightly back and use full-blown noise-jamming using uber powerful twin GaN pods and allow other MKIs or Rafale to close in.

Those MKI's behind the other MIK's "full-blown noise-jamming" will also be jamming the front friendly Flankers radar. Russian Flankers in Ukraine don't use their jamming pods (which are good ew pods) for that reason.

When Growlers tag along with a strike package the Growlers become a "modified escort jammers" meaning that they lead the strike package.

Modern airspace during war is going to be extremely cluttered and dense. Don't think max detection is possible under that scenario.

And last I heard that F-35 was to be the 'be all and end all' day 1 strike aircraft and E/A-18G are no more required, lol.

Using Growlers or any jamming aircraft will tell the enemy you're here. Even though they can't track you they can sure start lighting up the sky and sending up fighters to the region of space the noise is coming from which is why F-35's won't have Growlers escorting them anywhere.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Those MKI's behind the other MIK's "full-blown noise-jamming" will also be jamming the front friendly Flankers radar. Russian Flankers in Ukraine don't use their jamming pods (which are good ew pods) for that reason.

When Growlers tag along with a strike package the Growlers become a "modified escort jammers" meaning that they lead the strike package.


Using Growlers or any jamming aircraft will tell the enemy you're here. Even though they can't track you they can sure start lighting up the sky and sending up fighters to the region of space the noise is coming from which is why F-35's won't have Growlers escorting them anywhere.

My scenario is a defensive one where MKI is trying to defend against hostile Chinese VLO fighters. Israeli/DRDO B-Net is suppose to work even during heavy jamming. So, a group of MKI may still be able to communicate with each other/ground assets even during jamming!!

 

[Innominate]

My scenario is a defensive one where MKI is trying to defend against hostile Chinese VLO fighters. Israeli/DRDO B-Net is suppose to work even during heavy jamming. So, a group of MKI may still be able to communicate with each other/ground assets even during jamming!!

I don't think chicom VLO/J-20 has air to ground capability. The only reason I see J-20's penetrating Indian airspace is fighters escort. Clear the skies of fighters that threaten chicom J-16's and other 4th gen strike fighters.

 

[Innominate]

@vstol Jockey

Can J-20 detect/track MKI from 400kms away? Is it possible especially under dense EM environment?

Only way a J-20 will track an MKI 400kms away is through their AWACS.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Only way a J-20 will track an MKI 400kms away is through their AWACS.

Life is strange isn't it!! Never thought I will agree with you against Random, lol.

But if MKI upgrade is employing pure noise jamming with its power Growler like GaN pods, I doubt even AWACS will track or detect it from 400kms. Burn through range would be much less, around 100 kms, my wild guess.

 

[Saaho]

I don't think chicom VLO/J-20 has air to ground capability. The only reason I see J-20's penetrating Indian airspace is fighters escort. Clear the skies of fighters that threaten chicom J-16's and other 4th gen strike fighters.

No, there is one more very major reason.... perhaps the biggest one. ChiComs will never risk their precious J-20s to defeat lowly Tejas and likes.

Its to take out Indian refulers and AWACS. Basically to remove force multipliers. Its no wonder they carry AAMs with massive range -- though less manuverable at those range. It is to penetrate a dense air defence network, avoid intercepters and snipe Refulers and AWACS which operate behind them.

J-20's biggest reason to exist is to reduce enemy airforce effectiveness and allow PLAAF fighters to gain air dominance early.

 

[Rajput Lion]

No, there is one more very major reason.... perhaps the biggest one. ChiComs will never risk their precious J-20s to defeat lowly Tejas and likes.

Its to take out Indian refulers and AWACS. Basically to remove force multipliers. Its no wonder they carry AAMs with massive range -- though less manuverable at those range. It is to penetrate a dense air defence network, avoid intercepters and snipe Refulers and AWACS which operate behind them.

J-20's biggest reason to exist is to reduce enemy airforce effectiveness and allow PLAAF fighters to gain air dominance early.

J-20 with PL-15 is a deadly combo for our fighters too. AWACS and other HVTs are threatened not only by J-20/PL-15 combo but also by J-16/PL-21 combo. PL-21 has supposedly 500kms range and the whole purpose of its existence is to swat enemy Tankers, AWACS, Transport planes etc.!!

 

[Saaho]

J-20 with PL-15 is a deadly combo for our fighters too. AWACS and other HVTs are threatened not only by J-20/PL-15 combo but also by J-16/PL-21 combo. PL-21 has supposedly 500kms range and the whole purpose of its existence is to swat enemy Tankers, AWACS, Transport planes etc.!!

PL-21 is so massive that it can not fit the internal weapons bay of J-20. You cannot make a rocket go further without making it bulkier. PL-21 is like a Mahindra Bolero. Its goes far, carries a lot of fuel and is good enough to dash into a dump truck but it can not turn of a dime like a Pulsar does.

 

[Rajput Lion]

PL-21 is so massive that it can not fit the internal weapons bay of J-20. You cannot make a rocket go further without making it bulkier. PL-21 is like a Mahindra Bolero. Its goes far, carries a lot of fuel and is good enough to dash into a dump truck but it can not turn of a dime like a Pulsar does.

There is only one PLAAF fighter that is cleared for PL-21, i.e., J-16. J-20 will fight with its LO and in future with supercruise.

 

[Panzerjager]

That's a general statement. But specific to the F-35, the aircraft can only jam signals that it intimately knows as of today. That's the purpose of the MDF. And the F-35 is not capable of responding to unknown signals because they have decided to remove the possibility of human intervention. It's been left to specialist aircraft with a human operator to create a jamming signal on the fly. It's not efficient, but it's the best option today.

you don't need to have a perfectly identified signal in order to jam it or attack it for that matter.

not capable of responding to unknown signals because they have decided to remove the possibility of human intervention. It's been left to specialist aircraft with a human operator to create a jamming signal on the fly. It's not efficient, but it's the best option today.

Very funny! so SPECTRA and fully automated active cancelation you tell us about so often would fail to respond to the same unknown signals without human intervention? What a massive paradox

 

[Rajput Lion]

you don't need to have a perfectly identified signal in order to jam it or attack it for that matter.



Very funny! so SPECTRA and fully automated active cancelation you tell us about so often would fail to respond to the same unknown signals without human intervention? What a massive paradox

It is impossible to do 100% active cancellation until you've transmitters embedded across the aircraft's skin. Rafale has only 3 transmitters, two in the canard root and one in the tail. Though the coverage zone for each transmitter is 120°. So all three combined give 360° FOV to SPECTRA.

Rather than cancelling entire signals, SPECTRA is tuned to cancel the spike zones, thus reducing Rafale's overall RCS. I am a Rafale fan, but I fail to see how it will work againsts GaN AESA radars or future's Quantum or Photonics Radar!!

 

[Panzerjager]

It is impossible to do 100% active cancellation until you've transmitters embedded across the aircraft's skin. Rafale has only 3 transmitters, two in the canard root and one in the tail. Though the coverage zone for each transmitter is 120°. So all three combined give 360° FOV to SPECTRA.

Rather than cancelling entire signals, SPECTRA is tuned to cancel the spike zones, thus reducing Rafale's overall RCS. I am a Rafale fan, but I fail to see how it will work againsts GaN AESA radars or future's Quantum or Photonics Radar!!

I agree! And this is why I am curious how the F-35 automatic system can't possibly react without human intervention to unknown signals, and yet anytime this is brought up with SPECTRA I am assured by the same person that the system will automatically and instantly get it correct and maintain active cancelation. At the very least the need for human intervention would point to the need for a Growler style Rafale with a specialist electronic warfare officer in the backseat.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Those MKI's behind the other MIK's "full-blown noise-jamming" will also be jamming the front friendly Flankers radar. Russian Flankers in Ukraine don't use their jamming pods (which are good ew pods) for that reason.

Is that so Bubba J ? In which case the IFF feature is a total waste & failure isn't it . The very fact that you yokels actually tested these FAs for such parameters without securing the other FAs flying in the same formation from the ill effects of these features only realising the effects during those tests & implementing remedial measures subsequently tells us you think the rest of the world is run by the same trailer park type leadership like yours eh !

When Growlers tag along with a strike package the Growlers become a "modified escort jammers" meaning that they lead the strike package.

Aww , you don't say ... I just about came when I read this , Bubba J . HENCE jammer aircraft to the front. I'd love to know how does F-35 perform in such circumstances . Since they're a force of nature & since they're all configured the same , what happens when the first couple of F-35 begin jamming. Do the F-35s flying immediately behind them go "blind?"

Using Growlers or any jamming aircraft will tell the enemy you're here. Even though they can't track you they can sure start lighting up the sky and sending up fighters to the region of space the noise is coming from which is why F-35's won't have Growlers escorting them anywhere.

Which is why die juden - pun unintended , had this to report . ..

The Israeli Air Force was able to successfully argue that in ten years, the F-35 stealth platform, in its current form may be obsolete, despite the F-35 airframe’s thirty to forty year estimated lifespan.

The National Interest: Blog

nationalinterest.org

 

[marich01]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1644577416390508546

https://twitter.com/x/status/1644577359683813376

 

[Lolwa]

I don't think chicom VLO/J-20 has air to ground capability. The only reason I see J-20's penetrating Indian airspace is fighters escort. Clear the skies of fighters that threaten chicom J-16's and other 4th gen strike fighters.

The majority of the fighting is going to be done by Cheeni j-10's,j-11's and su-35's while the j-20"s provide aircover or flank the flankers. The ground strike role will be done by j-16's,jh-7's and their tu-16 copies.