Sukhoi Su-30MKI
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None of that's needed. Based on what @Picdelamirand-oil said, SPECTRA simply makes a copy of the signal and retransmits the signal back with a cancellation signal superimposed. So it doesn't matter how much the carrier frequency hops, it's gonna get cancelled as long as Rafale keeps up with the processing needs and of course the antenna is able to match the fractional bandwidth for transmission. There should be various other modes available because the French have taken a significant lead here. The Rafale's hardware has to be as good or better than OPFOR's, and that's where it's very likely that the J-20 has taken the lead with GaN. GaN on J-20 is still only my assumption, and I hope I'm wrong.
Jamming currently is not advanced as you think. If a new signal is found, it cannot be jammed automatically, it currently requires 2 years to defeat an unknown signal (open source, much, much better in reality). That's the point of the F-35's MDF, it contains a library of signals specific to geography, and the F-35 can only jam known signals. Meaning, if the S-400 starts emitting unknown signals, then the F-35 can do jacksh!t about it.
Here's a clue:
Russian S-300 'Deceiving’ F-35 Fighters As US Stealth Jets ‘Hunt’ For Kremlin's Defense Systems - USAF Commander
Since the early months of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters have been patrolling the airspace over NATO’s eastern flank. These fighters are purportedly required to gather vital intelligence in addition to their stated air policing missions. At the start of...
eurasiantimes.com
I'm guessing it's at best a day or two today, and they are hoping cognitive AI will help make it almost immediate, just like a human operator can.
It's a very small and insignificant advantage. Rafale needs to be better than the J-20, not the MKI. The Rafale has other qualities that make it twice as capable as the MKI even if the MKI gets a more advanced EW suite.
We don't have any ToT or access to SPECTRA's software. We are unlikely to ever get it either, even with MRFA.
ACT on MKI will give it an advantage over other 4th gen, but not the J-20.
But ACT gets more tough if the radar that is illuminating you is not static but very very dynamic. Plus if one Rafale is illuminated by two or more Su-30s then once again ACT goes for a toss. Bear in mind that MKI has 980mm radar and that sized GaN based radar can produce humongous power as well. MKI will have much superior burn through performance against enemy EW or ACT.
As per some reports even the production Byelka on Su-57 utilizes GaN. Chinese are ahead of the Russians in GaN tech. I think J-20 may be using GaN AESA or they must be very close towards fielding it in operational service.
That's why I said that if MKI's AESA radar works on "random" mode, which is not part of Rafale's threat library, it's extremely difficult to fool or mimic it.
Unlike F-35, MKI GaN based twin pods can produce very powerful white noise jamming or barrage jamming. That is effective against even the best of radars. Rafale can't do such brute jamming without external pods nor F-35(though it can use its radar for the same).
MKI also has few advantages that others are never going to have. Biggest size GaN radar, longest range QWIP IRST, powerful twin podded EW suit, TVC, Unbeatable maneuverability, amazing supersonic endurance on internal fuel etc.Here's a clue:
Russian S-300 'Deceiving’ F-35 Fighters As US Stealth Jets ‘Hunt’ For Kremlin's Defense Systems - USAF Commander
Since the early months of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters have been patrolling the airspace over NATO’s eastern flank. These fighters are purportedly required to gather vital intelligence in addition to their stated air policing missions. At the start of...
I'm guessing it's at best a day or two today, and they are hoping cognitive AI will help make it almost immediate, just like a human operator can.
It's a very small and insignificant advantage. Rafale needs to be better than the J-20, not the MKI. The Rafale has other qualities that make it twice as capable as the MKI even if the MKI gets a more advanced EW suite.
That wasn't my point. Our scientists may know how it works in principle just to replicate it. Our EW is no joke. We don't need to dismantle SPECTRA to know how it works!
GaN AESA radar sensor fused with Digital RWR, QWIP Dual Band IRST and GaN based EW. They will enable MKI to successfully counter J-20. J-20 is true LO only in its frontal 45° arc. MKI GaN AESA would spot it from quite far from other angles. Just need to take out KJ-500 using Meteor or Astra 3 and both MKI and Rafale would defeat J-20.
All that doesn't matter if ACT works the way it's said to work. Power is irrelevant, transmitted power for intelligent EA is in watts and milliwatts.
Su-57 is still far away from switching over to GaN, at least a decade. They don't have the numbers to make it affordable. India's orders and money was necessary.
Threat library is not necessary for ACT, but the Rafale needs to know that it's an MKI emitting, which has to come via other sensors and platforms, it's explained in the article I posted.
Andrle said: “We’re looking at a Sa-20 [NATO’s name for the S-300 surface-to-air missile system]. I know it’s a Sa-20. Intel says there’s a Sa-20 there, but now my jet doesn’t ID it as such because that Sa-20 is potentially operating in a war reserve mode that we haven’t seen before.”
After informing soldiers of the object’s presence, the aircraft modified the data for the jet so that NATO pilots could better comprehend what they were viewing.
Then ACT can kick in.
It's not effective against fighters today.
Only the radar is worth talking about, only 'cause we don't have a better jet with a big radar. But the MKI's 400Km is not as good as Rafale's 200Km.
Everybody already knows that. There are even papers on it available publicly.
Plus DRDO doesn't like to copy, they like to do things on their own. Plus, we may have already developed it before the Rafale entered service.
Pretty much everything you mentioned is irrelevant to defeating the J-20 when we are talking about the MKI. All the MKI can do is survive and stay on the defensive with all those avionics, 'cause all it has to do is defeat the missile, which is far easier. What you did is like claiming all we have to do is put F-22 avionics on the F-15 and the F-22 can be defeated, nothing is further from the truth. But guess what? The F-15's avionics are better than what's on the F-22, still nada, nothing. Only stealth can take on stealth. The MKI can't even defeat the F-35, never mind purpose-built stealth.
Let me put it this way. Even with all the upgrades, the MKI will at best get a 1.5-2:1 kill ratio over the F-15EX. Otoh, the F-22 will generate a 15:1 kill ratio against the F-15EX. Never mind the fact that the MKI MLU isn't even getting an engine upgrade, whereas the J-20's upcoming engine is 2 generations ahead, while the current one is a generation ahead.
J-20 is all-aspect RF stealth already, and it's getting the new engine soon that will give it TVC and supercruise. As per the Chinese, the engine is in production, which actually means it's already being delivered or is already operational.
SPECTRA needs to mimic the exact signal at the same speed just half a meter out of phase. I understand the concept. And it is not going to work against AESA radars because practically it is impossible to create so many fake signals at the speed. And if multiple MKIs are targetting a same target, then even ACT goes bust.
F-15EX doesn't have any QWIP based IRST. @vstol Jockey sir categorically said that it is far easy to detect a supercruising target using IRST at high altitudes then otherwise. As for cueing the IRST? Well, our ground based radars, AWACS, MKI's digital ESM or even the radar they all may cue the IRST to look exactly where J-20 is. None of the American fighters possess this ability. Their SNIPER pod based IRST is not as good as dedicated and integrated IRST and even F-35's EOTAS will not be as good as MKI'S Dual Band IRST. It only works in SWIR and MWIR. Only with Block-4, they are looking to use QWIP based LWIR tracking in EOTAS.
Only stealth can counter stealth? SAAB disagree with you. They believe with Gripen-E's GaN based EW they will counter both Su-57 and S-400. MKI's EW and sensor fusion is even going to surpass Gripen-E. You are also underestimating the efficiency of QWIP IRST in hunting stealth fighters. Let's leave it at that.
But to regain superiority over PLAAF(which we had because of MKI circa 2002-17), we need our own heavyweight stealth fighter. That I totally agree with.
Sorry, mate, you gotta brush up on all this.
Supercruise is for transit or getting the first shot out at longer range. EOTS doesn't help as much as you think.
They want to sell jets.
SAAB. The least credible, yet most credible at the same time.
Why would a stealth fighter with GAN radar EW not slap the hell out of a 4.5 gen fighter with GAN radar EW.
That's the thing about stealth, no one is claiming it's the be all end all. However if you don't have it, it's a whole competent that you lack.
Why would a stealth fighter with GAN radar EW not slap the hell out of a 4.5 gen fighter with GAN radar EW.
That's the thing about stealth, no one is claiming it's the be all end all. However if you don't have it, it's a whole competent that you lack.
During an exercise Gripen-C sneaked up inside Raptor's gun range. Never underestimate them and the power of smart EW.
Because it just isnt't as simple as we think it is.
A lot of people do.
Of course, it is important to have stealth. That's why every nation is pursuing Stealth fighters. But there are ways stealth fighters can be defeated. Every nation is developing that tech too.
I am not denying the advantages of ACT. But it is very hard to do destructive interference against AESA radars, especially those which use GaN TRMs.
Once again, I am not talking about any one sensor defeating stealth. It's the combination or synergy of different sensors like digital RWR, QWIP IRST, GaN radar and the GaN ECM system which all fuse their data guided by AI software to detect, track and kill something that is designed to avoid all of that.
Plus, radars can even detect insects from far. But their computer is designed to filter all of these. With modern software, new age GaN radars can be tuned to detect an insect which moves over 200kmph from far. Only matter of time before counter stealth tech is developed.
SAAB EW and data-links are world renowned. They really take the Russian threat real seriously. Gripen-E as per them shall counter Su-57 and S-400. Watch this video:
ACT explained in a simple graph:
As we can see, the duplicate signal in the opposite phase completely cancels the original signal and end result is 0. While this is good on paper and all, and I'm sure our scientists are also trying to develop this elusive system. Am not too sure if this can achieve success against X-Band AESA radars. Passive stealth is still the way to go.
As we can see, the duplicate signal in the opposite phase completely cancels the original signal and end result is 0. While this is good on paper and all, and I'm sure our scientists are also trying to develop this elusive system. Am not too sure if this can achieve success against X-Band AESA radars. Passive stealth is still the way to go.
Theoretically yes. But AI/ML has it’s limitations and in such a scenario there will be so many false positives that practically it becomes useless. Unless the system accurately predicts 99.99% of time, I don’t think it will be adapted. Imagine the situation when Radar gives false positives and pilot fires some/ all it’s A2A missiles.
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If such algorithms are developed where very very small RCS targets like insects etc. are filtered based upon their speed, then it's possible to detect even LO/VLO planes from far.
I think most still don't understand why a GaN based AESA radar with huge TRM count and power and cooling to back it up, is such a game-changer. Everything is going to get detected and from far. Also fighters don't fly alone but always in a formation where triangulation via radar or IRST is always possible.
Without AWACS, they need to emit or come close to IRST range, where detection would be mutual and the best dogfighter wins(and in that scenario, MKI>> 'em all).
That's why I wrote that to disrupt J-20s kill zone, both Rafale(with Meteor) and MKI(with Astra 3) should need to first take out KJ-500. With AWACS support, J-20 is really dangerous no doubt. Even USAF General Kenneth Wilsbach said the same thing:
"The KJ-500 plays a significant role in some of their capability for long-range fires,” says Wilsbach. “Some of their very long-range air-to-air missiles are aided by that KJ-500. Being able to interrupt that kill chain is something that interests me greatly.”
Chinese J-20 Meets US F-35 Stealth Fighter Jet For The First Time; Top US Air Force Official Describes The Encounter
Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighters have had at least one contact with Chinese J-20 jets revealed a top US Air Force General said
eurasiantimes.com
You are focusing on the speed alone. That will work if the Radar signature remains same or in the same vicinity throughout the analysis phase. In reality it will not remain same and correlation algorithms help to corelate among successive radar images. Issue is when the signal level is quite low( for stealth aircraft) , the margin for error is extremely low. That’s the reason developing such algorithm with the expected level of accuracy will be extremely difficult, if not impossible.
I agree with everything you wrote. But Stealth/LO/VLO is not a new concept. It doesn't make you invisible, just hard to spot and track. But with the anvil of now airborne GaN based AESA radars, now fighters will have the power to detect them at a safe distance. The algorithms that we're talking about is a definite engineering challenge, but I'm sure with the J-20 threat lurking over our nation, our scientists are on to it. And I hope they are successful. The new computers also would allow much more faster and complicated processing.
Look, countering stealth fighters with 4+ gen is always going to be defensive. Stealth would always have advantage in surprise attacks. I understand all of this. But I've said this and stick with it that our Rafale are capable of fighting J-20. And post upgrade MKI will be too. However, to dominate PLAAF, we need out own heavy-weight stealth fighters. Period.
one does not need to intimately "know" a signal to jam it. the idea that jamming capability is completely lost if the enemy is clever enough to come up with novel electronic signals for its SAMs is to court disbelief, especially as such spoofing and tricks is not new but a part of the never ending cat and mouse gameJamming currently is not advanced as you think. If a new signal is found, it cannot be jammed automatically, it currently requires 2 years to defeat an unknown signal (open source, much, much better in reality). That's the point of the F-35's MDF, it contains a library of signals specific to geography, and the F-35 can only jam known signals. Meaning, if the S-400 starts emitting unknown signals, then the F-35 can do jacksh!t about it.
Here's a clue:
Russian S-300 'Deceiving’ F-35 Fighters As US Stealth Jets ‘Hunt’ For Kremlin's Defense Systems - USAF Commander
Since the early months of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters have been patrolling the airspace over NATO’s eastern flank. These fighters are purportedly required to gather vital intelligence in addition to their stated air policing missions. At the start of...
Here is a very nice article/analysis by experts regarding Stealth fighters vs AESA radars and IRST. They also argue that sensor fusion is must to take on VLO fighters. All the data they used was just for the analysis, MKI is going to have much more advance and long range sensors.
I request everyone to read this:
I request everyone to read this:
Without AWACS, they need to emit or come close to IRST range, where detection would be mutual and the best dogfighter wins(and in that scenario, MKI>> 'em all).
That's why I wrote that to disrupt J-20s kill zone, both Rafale(with Meteor) and MKI(with Astra 3) should need to first take out KJ-500. With AWACS support, J-20 is really dangerous no doubt. Even USAF General Kenneth Wilsbach said the same thing:
"The KJ-500 plays a significant role in some of their capability for long-range fires,” says Wilsbach. “Some of their very long-range air-to-air missiles are aided by that KJ-500. Being able to interrupt that kill chain is something that interests me greatly.”
Chinese J-20 Meets US F-35 Stealth Fighter Jet For The First Time; Top US Air Force Official Describes The Encounter
Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighters have had at least one contact with Chinese J-20 jets revealed a top US Air Force General said
Fighters can operate in a sensor-shooter loop, so some stay passive.
Radar + IRST against IRST alone, the latter will always lose. The J-20 will see the MKI from 400Km away, but the J-20 will be detected only about 80Km away.