Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[LX1111]

MKI is the ONLY operational plane that has defeated 4/5 AMRAAMs fired towards it. That is unheard of performance both by the pilot and the plane(kinematics + jamming).

You're talking about avoiding AIM120. It's normal. NATO air forces often launch AIM120 at long distances to force the enemy to maneuver and use up energy

 

[LX1111]

J-16 unit wins Golden Helmet of Chinese Air Force for the first time​

• 
  By CNAS
• 2 years Ago

The Western Theater Air Force of China released an article on March 11, reporting that two pilots from a brigade of the theater won the “Golden Helmet”, which is the first news that J-16 fighter jets have won the “Gold Helmet” title in the third and half generation fighter group.
The “Golden Helmet”, along with the “Red Sword”, “Blue Shield” and “Golden Dart”, are known as the four major military training brands of the Chinese Air Force. The core content of the competition is air combat confrontation. At the end of each year, top pilots from the five theaters of the PLA gather in the northwest desert to compete for the single-digit awards of “Golden Helmet”, which is considered the highest honor for fighter pilots in the Chinese Air Force.
The J-16 is a new generation of twin-engine, two-seat multipurpose fighter produced by Shenyang Aviation Company, which is a new type of fighter with “third-and-a-half generation” characteristics based on the J-11 series of fighters, with a substantial increase in combat effectiveness over the J-11 and J-11B/BS."

The same generation of fighter jets is mainly based on the pilot's performance. For example, in a battle revealed last year, the J-10C uses the LPI mode that requires AESA to continuously control the radar power. After several brief contacts, it communicates the target to the IRST without triggering an alarm, and then uses a sneak attack to shoot down the J-16
So in a fighter of the same level, the pilot factor is more important

 

[Rajput Lion]

At least I haven't seen any reports about it. As for su30MKI, after the upgrade, I think it's pretty much the same as J-11BG,

Nope. Su-30MKI upgrade is still WIP. In the meanwhile Russians are coming up with new Su-35SM upgrade. And it will have radar blockers, more powerful engines, same composite skin as Su-57M, AESA radar, QWIP IRST and there is some chatter on external weapons pod. These are all things I proposed for MKI upgrade too. And if Russians are doing to to their Flankers, we may do it to ours as well.

Russians are reacting to the F-35 and NATO threat because they know that Su-57 is still not ready for high intensity battles. They know they will need to upgrade Su-35 and even Su-30SM2 to fight a VLO fighter head-on.

Similarly, the biggest threat for IAF is J-20 today and even tomorrow. Current Su-30MKI is not capable of fighting J-20 head-on. So, only option is to reduce its RCS by using CNT skin and external weapons pod along with new engines with radar blockers. That will reduce its RCS to a level where it will be ONLY detected by J-20 at a range where J-20 is also simultaneously detected by its next-gen QWIP IRST and is under the weapons range of the MKI. That way, even though its RCS would be more than J-20, MKI still would be able to fight it in a head-on battle.

 

[Innominate]

Nope. Su-30MKI upgrade is still WIP. In the meanwhile Russians are coming up with new Su-35SM upgrade. And it will have radar blockers, more powerful engines, same composite skin as Su-57M, AESA radar, QWIP IRST and there is some chatter on external weapons pod. These are all things I proposed for MKI upgrade too. And if Russians are doing to to their Flankers, we may do it to ours as well.

Russians are reacting to the F-35 and NATO threat because they know that Su-57 is still not ready for high intensity battles. They know they will need to upgrade Su-35 and even Su-30SM2 to fight a VLO fighter head-on.

Similarly, the biggest threat for IAF is J-20 today and even tomorrow. Current Su-30MKI is not capable of fighting J-20 head-on. So, only option is to reduce its RCS by using CNT skin and external weapons pod along with new engines with radar blockers. That will reduce its RCS to a level where it will be ONLY detected by J-20 at a range where J-20 is also simultaneously detected by its next-gen QWIP IRST and is under the weapons range of the MKI. That way, even though its RCS would be more than J-20, MKI still would be able to fight it in a head-on battle.

Oy vey. Get this through your head no matter how much lipstick you put on a flanker MKI or any other 4th/4.5/4.5+ gen fighter it's never going to survive against an air force with a stealth fighter fleet. PERIOD!

Only way a 4th gen with all the latest doohickeys comes out on top against an all out offensive/defensive flight of stealth fighters is if it's in a flight of friendly stealth fighters with a lot of training in combined netcentric warfare. Latest F-15E's with all the latest avionics stood no chance against a flight of AG configured F-35's still in block 3i. F-18E's that were built from the ground up to be "LO" and have the latest radars get their butts handed to them by F-22's and F-35's.

F-35's have the capability to make friendly 4th gen fighters in the same flight very difficult to detect without the F-35 giving away its position I highly doubt the chicom J-20 has this capability so their tactics when flying with a flight of friendly 4th gen fighters is going to be much different but still very dangerous against a nation that only flies 4th gen fighters. I see the J-20 as nothing more than an F-117 nighthawk with a radar and IRS-T. F-35 is a flying super computer that can kill another fighter by other means than air to air missile.

 

[LX1111]

Similarly, the biggest threat for IAF is J-20 today and even tomorrow. Current Su-30MKI is not capable of fighting J-20 head-on. So, only option is to reduce its RCS by using CNT skin and external weapons pod along with new engines with radar blockers. That will reduce its RCS to a level where it will be ONLY detected by J-20 at a range where J-20 is also simultaneously detected by its next-gen QWIP IRST and is under the weapons range of the MKI. That way, even though its RCS would be more than J-20, MKI still would be able to fight it in a head-on battle.

For now, the upgrades announced by India are mainly radars and missiles, plus some of India's own RWR and ECM pods. The upgrades are modest, similar to those of the J-11B

I see the J-20 as nothing more than an F-117 nighthawk with a radar an

J-20 is clearly an air fighter, not related to fighter-bombers like F117

I see the J-20 as nothing more than an F-117 nighthawk with a radar an

J-20 is clearly an air fighter, not related to fighter-bombers like F117

 

[Innominate]

For now, the upgrades announced by India are mainly radars and missiles, plus some of India's own RWR and ECM pods. The upgrades are modest, similar to those of the J-11B

J-20 is clearly an air fighter, not related to fighter-bombers like F117

J-20 is clearly an air fighter, not related to fighter-bombers like F117

Stealth wise.

 

[LX1111]

ven if the Chinese are trying to hire French and British pilots to train their AF, they still can't match the real time experience IAF has. This would be an important and decisive factor when SU30MKIs and Rafale would meet J20, J16 & J10 over the Himalayas in the next war, IMO.

I haven't seen the Indian Air Force having military training similar to the Chinese Golden Helmet or the US Red Flag. For example, on February 27th, the Indian Air Force was disrupted by the DA20 in communication, while in PLAAF, electronic warfare is highly valued. There is a saying that goes, "If you don't carry an electronic warfare pod, you don't have to go into the air for combat“

 

[LX1111]

My point still stands though. What Chinese are trying to figure out today, not ONLY our AF has perfected but also evolved based upon NATO tactics merged with our own. The reason why IAF was rated ahead of PLAAF is this exactly since they own lot more heavy weight fighters that too AESA equipped than us.

I don't think the Indian Air Force is very well built, the IAF also lacks dedicated EW aircraft like E/A-18G and outside area EW aircraft like EC-37, the rest of the reconnaissance units, like WZ-7, India is quite short, and the air command aircraft like E-8, in general, the Indian Air Force is similar to Russia, This OOAD loop is imperfect

 

[Rajput Lion]

For now, the upgrades announced by India are mainly radars and missiles, plus some of India's own RWR and ECM pods. The upgrades are modest, similar to those of the J-11B

As I said it's still 'work in progress'. What route they take is still to be decided. But as per ANI, MKI upgrade is going to be comprehensive, which means reducing its RCS et al.

 

[randomradio]

I haven't seen the Indian Air Force having military training similar to the Chinese Golden Helmet or the US Red Flag.

Golden Helmet is just a dogfighting competition, it's worthless from PoV of combat. Red Flag is something else entirely. We don't have the scale that the Americans do, but we have such exercises regularly.

Anyway, what the Golden Helmet symbolises, the IAF has been doing since the 1930s. PLAAF has only recently reformed itself to modern combat techniques.

For example, on February 27th, the Indian Air Force was disrupted by the DA20 in communication, while in PLAAF, electronic warfare is highly valued. There is a saying that goes, "If you don't carry an electronic warfare pod, you don't have to go into the air for combat“

The DA-20 doing anything on 27th was fake news.

Ex-Air Chief BS Dhanoa Refutes Reports Of IAF Going 'Incommunicado' During Balakot Airstrike

Amid reports of Indian Air Force lacking ‘operational-data link and jets going incommunicado' during the Pakistan Air Force retaliation on February 27, former Air Chief BS Dhanoa on Sunday said Indian Air Force is a network enabled force and it has joint air defence centre. Dhanoa said any...

english.newsnationtv.com

BS Dhanoa, who headed Indian Air Force’s Balakot Airstrike told ANI, “To say that Sukhoi 30 went air borne and couldn't talk to anybody is a false statement.”

“Similarly to say that Army and Air Force don't have communication is a wrong statement. We have joint air defence centre. Air Force is a network enabled force”, ex-Air chief added.

Don't trust Pak media, but I would say the same for Chinese media as well. Neither country has a free media. China doesn't even have media.

 

[randomradio]

I don't think the Indian Air Force is very well built, the IAF also lacks dedicated EW aircraft like E/A-18G and outside area EW aircraft like EC-37, the rest of the reconnaissance units, like WZ-7, India is quite short, and the air command aircraft like E-8, in general, the Indian Air Force is similar to Russia, This OOAD loop is imperfect

We've had all those for decades.

In fact, India has some of the best EW technologies available globally, which we do not export. It was amongst the first technologies we indigenised successfully.

We have Israeli and American equivalents of WZ-7. But it's not very important during war.

 

[Hydra]

Golden Helmet is just a dogfighting competition, it's worthless from PoV of combat. Red Flag is something else entirely. We don't have the scale that the Americans do, but we have such exercises regularly.

Anyway, what the Golden Helmet symbolises, the IAF has been doing since the 1930s. PLAAF has only recently reformed itself to modern combat techniques.



The DA-20 doing anything on 27th was fake news.

Ex-Air Chief BS Dhanoa Refutes Reports Of IAF Going 'Incommunicado' During Balakot Airstrike

Amid reports of Indian Air Force lacking ‘operational-data link and jets going incommunicado' during the Pakistan Air Force retaliation on February 27, former Air Chief BS Dhanoa on Sunday said Indian Air Force is a network enabled force and it has joint air defence centre. Dhanoa said any...

english.newsnationtv.com

BS Dhanoa, who headed Indian Air Force’s Balakot Airstrike told ANI, “To say that Sukhoi 30 went air borne and couldn't talk to anybody is a false statement.”

“Similarly to say that Army and Air Force don't have communication is a wrong statement. We have joint air defence centre. Air Force is a network enabled force”, ex-Air chief added.

Don't trust Pak media, but I would say the same for Chinese media as well. Neither country has a free media. China doesn't even have media.

Don't trust indian media also.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Few months back there was a report regarding future Su-30MKI roadmap in official gov. websites like ANI/AIR etc.

Some highlights(proof-reading required):

As a HAL nodal agency, about 150 fighter aircraft will upgrade fifth generation fighter jet as ‘Super Sukhoi’, after which the Indian Air Force’s fighter capacity will increase manifold, reported HS.

‘Super Sukhoi will include a modern cockpit. The major part of the upgrade also includes avionics and sensors, making 150 fighter aircraft technically to be compatible with fifth-generation fifty jets.

HAL will develop Uttam MK3 AESA Fire Control radar in the proposed ‘Super Sukhoi’ program. HAL will begin testing several components to be included in the Super Sukhoi program in 2024. The prototypes to be launched for the Super Sukhoi program will include new systems in the steps and can start with full-scale upgradation 2027-28.

The Air Force hopes that the first Super Sukhoi aircraft will be ready by 2025.

The feathers of this aircraft will be made of carbon fibre. The cockpit and all systems will be improved in the modernsation program. It has been designed in such a way that it will be easy for pilots to shift to fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

Super Sukhoi’ will also have advanced stealth characteristics.

Super Sukhoi will have the same engine as FGFA, which will increase its lifetime.

Source: https://newsonair.com/2023/01/26/ai...or-4-billion-dollar-to-increase-its-capacity/


Bare in mind that this is a report from official gov. based website so we must take this report very seriously.

Everything I wrote earlier from CNT skin to enhanced stealth characteristics is mentioned in the report. So looks like finally we're going in the direction of making MKI UPG. a 5- gen fighter. Russians are looking to do the same to their Su-35S and Su-30SM2. So, we can't just dismiss it as conjecture.

 

[Ashwin]

I haven't seen the Indian Air Force having military training similar to the Chinese Golden Helmet or the US Red Flag. For example, on February 27th, the Indian Air Force was disrupted by the DA20 in communication, while in PLAAF, electronic warfare is highly valued. There is a saying that goes, "If you don't carry an electronic warfare pod, you don't have to go into the air for combat“

No surprise the Chinese believe in the Pakistani fiction without any second thought. This confirmation bias is actually helpful, when the day comes it will all be a surprise. No Chinese fighter can do a CAP with a useful load in the altitude we face. now add this kind of rudimentary miscalculations.

IAF has been operating EL/M-8222 and KNIRTI even before Chinese institutes mastered copying Soviet flanker designs. Golden Helmet is a laughably useless charade where PLAN follows some textbook dog-fighting maneuvers. Comparing it to the Red flag and telling regular participant (IAF) don't know much is too much delusion to deal with.

 

[suryakiran]

I haven't seen the Indian Air Force having military training similar to the Chinese Golden Helmet or the US Red Flag. For example, on February 27th, the Indian Air Force was disrupted by the DA20 in communication, while in PLAAF, electronic warfare is highly valued. There is a saying that goes, "If you don't carry an electronic warfare pod, you don't have to go into the air for combat“

Golden Helmet and US Red Flag comparison. Seriously?????

 

[RASALGHUL]

So you're saying that Astra 1 hasn't got 110 kms range when fired at 15km+ altitude in a lofted trajectory? Astra hit a target drone which is really small very close to 100kms, IIRC. Against AWACS/Tankers etc. 110 looks fully plausible. But since you're now rejecting HVT, so...

Brother, either I am wasting my time replying to you or you are wasting yours replying to my 'hyperbole' posts. Hence no more replies from me to your posts here onwards. Kindly pardon and ignore my 'hyperbole'. Thanks.

In fact, India has some of the best EW technologies available globally, which we do not export. It was amongst the first technologies we indigenised successfully

Want to know more about this @randomradio.

 

[Lolwa]

China only has 100 SU30MKK and J16 has nothing to do with SU30

How?? It's literally a flanker. With Chinese electronics. What redesign did you do. It's literally a su-30mkk with Chinese electronics and composites.

 

[Rajput Lion]

How?? It's literally a flanker. With Chinese electronics. What redesign did you do. It's literally a su-30mkk with Chinese electronics and composites.

Yes, the basic design is of Su-30. Chinese reduced weight and RCS by using CFC. It also has more powerful WS-10 engines, AESA radar, QWIP IRST. These things make it the most advance Flanker derivative till date. But to say that J-16 has nothing to do with Su-30(when the basic planform is the same) is downright laughable.

 

[randomradio]

Want to know more about this @randomradio.

We began various EW programs back in the 80s and most of them delivered from the 90s onwards. Like the Ajanta EW suite on ships.

AJANTA | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

AJANTA is a shipborne Electronic Warfare (EW) system. The system is a single operator, computer controlled Integrated Electronic Support Measure (ESM) & Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) system, designed for installation on frigates.The ESM system covers wide frequency range and has capability...

www.drdo.gov.in

The army had their own programs like Samyukta. The air force naturally had 3-4 programs for fighters, starting with the Mig-23 in the 90s, and an unknown number for specialised jamming aircraft. They had jamming pods too called Tusker, Tempest, Trap etc.

This was used in the Mig-27.

 

[LX1111]

The DA-20 doing anything on 27th was fake news.

Ex-Air Chief BS Dhanoa Refutes Reports Of IAF Going 'Incommunicado' During Balakot Airstrike

Amid reports of Indian Air Force lacking ‘operational-data link and jets going incommunicado' during the Pakistan Air Force retaliation on February 27, former Air Chief BS Dhanoa on Sunday said Indian Air Force is a network enabled force and it has joint air defence centre. Dhanoa said any...

english.newsnationtv.com

BS Dhanoa, who headed Indian Air Force’s Balakot Airstrike told ANI, “To say that Sukhoi 30 went air borne and couldn't talk to anybody is a false statement.”

“Similarly to say that Army and Air Force don't have communication is a wrong statement. We have joint air defence centre. Air Force is a network enabled force”, ex-Air chief added.

Don't trust Pak media, but I would say the same for Chinese media as well. Neither country has a free media. China doesn't even have media

No F16 was shot by IAF- Christine Fair,Balakot Air Chief BS Dhanoa, Pravin Sawhney, MilLit Fest 19

Streamed live from Lake Club Day 2 - No PAF F16 was shot by INdian Air force pilots.- MiLITFest 2019. Christine fair went on to reason out with Indian Air Fo...

www.youtube.com

Let's talk about the DA-20 issue first. I have a public speech from an Indian who admitted that the IAF has received serious electronic interference.

Electronic and information warfare can be game changers

The elephant in the room for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is that its adversary, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is larger, better equipped and competent.

forceindia.net

Which PAF aircraft is the biggest threat for the Indian Air Force?

Answer (1 of 3): The biggest threat for the Indian Air Force are Pakistani Air Force’s support assets In the 1990s, the Indian economy started performing very well, India was suddenly doing much better than Pakistan, this meant that the IAF’s budget increased, India, for the first time, bought h...

www.quora.com

There are public reports from Indian media here, which also provide a detailed description of the situation at that time. However, you only mentioned that Su 30 could communicate without saying whether there was any interference