Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[randomradio]

IAF has decided to not to include any new engine swap upgrade under its ” Super-Sukhoi” modernization program and the focus will remain to upgrade them with AESA Radar which will be a derivative of the one used by the Russians on its Su-57E n come equipped with upgraded Avionics pic.twitter.com/kpZ9acdVwj

— Aerodynamics🇫🇷 (@AeroResearch1) April 2, 2020

+on the Su-30MKI with thrust vectoring controls. The Russian air force has decided to swap engines of its entire Su-30SM fleet which is based on Su-30MKI build with AL-41F-1S which is also used on its Su-35 fleet to maintain commonality of the engine n improve its serviceability

— Aerodynamics🇫🇷 (@AeroResearch1) April 2, 2020

+but India was offered engine swap for a different reason n it ws due to ongoing technical issues with the AL-31FP which largely hv bn fixed bt still, sm issues remain unresolved. HAL hs confirmed that orders for 222 units of Su-30MKI which wr locally produced at its Nashik plant

— Aerodynamics🇫🇷 (@AeroResearch1) April 2, 2020

EW system on MKI MLU will be Indian.



And the new engine is required because the old engine cannot provide enough electricity to power all the new electronics being added in, and not just because it can provide additional thrust. If not for this, then the Russians would have upgraded the Su-30SM with Irbis-E right from the very beginning.

So much nonsense being peddled everywhere.

 

[Lolwa]

EW system on MKI MLU will be Indian.

View attachment 15139

And the new engine is required because the old engine cannot provide enough electricity to power all the new electronics being added in, and not just because it can provide additional thrust. If not for this, then the Russians would have upgraded the Su-30SM with Irbis-E right from the very beginning.

So much nonsense being peddled everywhere.

I doubt they will give the aesa. It most probably is an irbis e upgrade. The su 57 aesa is basically their crown jewel . Higher chances we might end up using the zhuk me aesa variant .

 

[randomradio]

I doubt they will give the aesa. It most probably is an irbis e upgrade. The su 57 aesa is basically their crown jewel . Higher chances we might end up using the zhuk me aesa variant .

Why? They are making an AESA radar exclusively for us. It's actually more advanced than the one on the Su-57.

The Russians are pushing for us to take Irbis-E for the first phase, while the new AESA radar is being developed, but it doesn't look like the IAF is interested in it.

 

[Ashwin]

EW system on MKI MLU will be Indian.

View attachment 15139

And the new engine is required because the old engine cannot provide enough electricity to power all the new electronics being added in, and not just because it can provide additional thrust. If not for this, then the Russians would have upgraded the Su-30SM with Irbis-E right from the very beginning.

So much nonsense being peddled everywhere.

148 MKIs are already receiving 'eagle eye' modifications. Which is 6 channel R118. Alpha design technologies got the contract few years back.

Evolution of Indian RWR.

DARE developed state-of-the-art Radar Warning Receivers, High accuracy direction finding pods and Airborne Jammers are used across a wide variety of Indian Air Force aircrafts. Over the years, several Radar Warners and Electronic Warfare Systems such as TEMPEST, TARANG and RWR-118 have been developed and inducted successfully by the IAF. RWR system got evolved from the 1st generation Dawn, to the 2nd generation Tranquil in 1994, followed by the 3rd generation TARANG in 2003, the 4th generation R118 in 2010, the 6 Antenna R118 in 2012, the RWR-ESM in 2014 and the Digital RWR DR118 in 2016. The TARANG RWR has salient features such as identifying and intercepting airborne and ground radars. It can be integrated with on-board avionics and weapon systems. Further it has the capability to cue SPJ and CMDS while being flight line programmable. TARANG is a standard warner on all IAF aircrafts.

Achievements-DARE

 

[randomradio]

148 MKIs are already receiving 'eagle eye' modifications. Which is 6 channel R118. Alpha design technologies got the contract few years back.

Evolution of Indian RWR.


Achievements-DARE

Yep.

Eagle Eye is an interface actually. It accepts the input from the 2 extra antennas and then combines it with the R-118.

I'm hoping to see the installation of interferometers and internal jammers as the next set of upgrades for the MLU. It can also be entirely replaced by a next gen RWJ, like the D-29 and D-Jag.

As for any Russian option, I find it unlikely because EW suites require constant upgrades, hardware and software, which is difficult on imported equipment, especially those that come from Russia. The dates you provided in that snippet are already a proof of that. Also, the Russians only provide downgraded EW suites for exports, which is a problem. We are also making an indigenous MAWS and IRST for MKI, so integrating those on a foreign EW suite will be extremely challenging. We basically need the entire EW suite to be Indian now.

The new radar seems to be interesting. There are rumours going around that the Russians will be providing deep ToT. I guess it's a marketing ploy in order to prevent the IAF from replacing it with an Indian option in the future. Selling software as part of aftersales service is big business after all.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Since I am not in mood to right long posts I'll simply poke holes in your theory so that we have a better understanding of the threats we face.


We have been hearing about chinese hacking of USA military data including f35 data. But in almost all cases Chinese agents( read Chinese engineer / scientist/ professor) breached the security protocol directly or provided pathway to it. But china lacks similar penetration in India . It won't magically be able to attack air gaped servers unless of course we have Chinese spies within in huge numbers.


Geography of tibet doesn't permit such a mobilization. Too many rivesrs , too many rivers , too much height , too rare air with lack of oxygen and literally nothing to eat. Supply lines will be way to long to protect and sustain. And indians will be he'll bent to take out all the bridges in route.


True they might not! And yet Taiwan might take this opportunity to declare independence . Japan might see Chinese aggression against India as a future threat to itself and might go nuclear. USA even if doesn't interfere directly will wait in wings for a wounded India to join a nato type treaty.
China will have to take all that in consideration.


Our nuclear arsenal is half as big as China and china have to secure credible deterrence against USA too.
Our land back strike is robust. Agni iii , iv and v all are deployed . But the larger question is this will Beijing risk a nuclear war to gain tawang! Cause I don't see a way of us loosing an inch of territory while retaining nukes.


Neither are Chinese ready for any war. Most of their air Force is still old jets even new once like j10 are plagued by reliability and availability issues. Few modern su35 and j11 D will be met with a wall of rafale su30 and mirages. Not to mention s400 complicating things for attacking Chinese.

But even if one considers all your points one has to question how will china hold territory and will have to expand very very long supply line across Himalayas to hold tawang?

If you're not in the mood for long posts, you're not doing justice to your post as well as mine, in which case what you've posted doesn't really matter nor merit a response.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

This Financial.Year 20 -- 21 will be a Bad year for ALL modernisation projects

 

[Ankit Kumar]

With Hypersonic Missiles, Advance Radars, SU-30 MKIs To Remain The Backbone Of The Indian Air Force

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

EW system on MKI MLU will be Indian.

View attachment 15139

And the new engine is required because the old engine cannot provide enough electricity to power all the new electronics being added in, and not just because it can provide additional thrust. If not for this, then the Russians would have upgraded the Su-30SM with Irbis-E right from the very beginning.

So much nonsense being peddled everywhere.

That guys post on engine upgrade seems to stem from this tweet of HAL test pilot Mr. HVT.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245626877575753728

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245416081964945417

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245644910419513346

Well, in short he(HVT) disagrees with you.

 

[randomradio]

That guys post on engine upgrade seems to stem from this tweet of HAL test pilot Mr. HVT.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245626877575753728

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245416081964945417

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245644910419513346

Well, in short he(HVT) disagrees with you.

I would put it in the category of "it's his opinion".

They offered the engine upgrade back in 2017, the same time the RuAF decided on opting for it.
Modernized Su-30MKI to be fitted with Su-35 Engines
“Speaking of the modernization of the Su-30MKI aircraft in terms of the engine, we have developed the engine AL-41F1C, it is being installed on the Su-35. This engine is exhibited at our stand and can be used for the Su-30MKI,” Artyuhov said during press conference at Aero India 2017.

And I don't know what he means by "uneconomical" when the integration of 117S on Su-30SM is already complete and the first of the aircraft will be delivered next year to the RuAF, all paid for by the Russians themselves. The Russians have ordered 36 aircraft with the new engine and radar. So you can say that by the time the first MKI is upgraded, the Su-30SM1 would have already seen years of service and plugged most or all the deficiencies by then.

Wish someone would drop a message to him saying the same about Su-30SM1, with these links.
Russia To Order Improved Su-30 'Flankers'

Поведение с мотором: «Супер Сухие» смогут летать, как вертолеты

The problem with military professionals is, they are not always 100% right. The fact is the AL-31FP does not have the onboard electrical power necessary to power an AESA radar. At worst the engine upgrade may not be part of Phase 1, but I don't believe that to be likely.

 

[randomradio]

That guys post on engine upgrade seems to stem from this tweet of HAL test pilot Mr. HVT.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245626877575753728

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245416081964945417

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245644910419513346

Well, in short he(HVT) disagrees with you.

Not likely. I don't know of any successful re-engine program for mainstream fighters. Not worth it. Uneconomical.

This statement is incorrect. The Mig-29UPG received a brand new engine. The RD-33 Series 3. This is the same engine made for the Mig-29M program. So it's not unlikely to expect the MKI to get an engine upgrade using the same method.

The RuAF upgraded their old Mig-29s to SMT with the Series 3 engines, parallel to the development of Mig-29M. Similarly, the Su-30SM1 is now getting Su-35's engine. So the MKI getting an engine upgrade is actually a bit too logical. It would be out of the ordinary not to expect one.

 

[Indianhawk]

If you're not in the mood for long posts, you're not doing justice to your post as well as mine, in which case what you've posted doesn't really matter nor merit a response.

You sir are right. It was a lazy post afterall. And yet it raised valid questions. But it is also very lazy and insincere to raise Chinese threat bogey without deeply analyzing Chinese strength as well as shortcomings along with geography of the terrain where battle is likely to take place. Which no one seems to be doing ! Everyone just shouts " China is coming we are not ready". Perhaps next time the people who say China is coming must also elaborate "how when and why " too. Otherwise we'll be forever doomed to posts without an iota of merit.

I doubt they will give the aesa. It most probably is an irbis e upgrade. The su 57 aesa is basically their crown jewel . Higher chances we might end up using the zhuk me aesa variant .

They could always build a so called derivative radar.

And I don't know what he means by "uneconomical" when the integration of 117S on Su-30SM is already complete

It makes economic sense for Russia since now all there su30 and su35 have common engine thus saving money on maintainace. Not the case with us.

The fact is the AL-31FP does not have the onboard electrical power necessary to power an AESA radar. At worst the engine upgrade may not be part of Phase 1, but I don't believe that to be likely.

How much power will a su30 sized aesa require ! With aesa it is more about gain and. Cooling then power available , NO? Would like to be corrected here!

Costs may be the reason to avoid engine upgrade or limit the no. of airframes with engine upgrade.

With radar and engine upgrade Along with all the work and tech share and new ew suite we may be looking at very hefty sum for 272 fighters but I suppose earlier once won't be upgraded.

 

[Ashwin]

IMO, IAF should adopt two parallel MLU/upgrade paths for MKI. Super upgrade and basic avionics upgrade. It shouldn't be exclusive.

Mid-Life Update (MLU): New Mission computer, HMD, MAWS, New EW suite, Full range of new weapon integration, airframe life increase to 30+ years.
Super Upgrade: All MLU features + AESA radar, AL-41 engine, New cockpit

MLU can cover ~180 airframes while Super upgrade limited to 3-4 squadrons (60-80 airframes).

Re-engining the entire fleet is just impossible. We have ordered 900+ AL-31 for the entire life cycle of the fleet and we are making it from scratch with all the supply chain in place. Also, airframe life would have mostly consumed by the time you put a new engine to it.

@Milspec

 

[_Anonymous_]

You sir are right. It was a lazy post afterall. And yet it raised valid questions. But it is also very lazy and insincere to raise Chinese threat bogey without deeply analyzing Chinese strength as well as shortcomings along with geography of the terrain where battle is likely to take place. Which no one seems to be doing ! Everyone just shouts " China is coming we are not ready". Perhaps next time the people who say China is coming must also elaborate "how when and why " too. Otherwise we'll be forever doomed to posts without an iota of merit.

Let's get this right. Is it your contention that China would never lauch a war against us? A simple yes or no without qualifying your statement will suffice.

 

[randomradio]

It makes economic sense for Russia since now all there su30 and su35 have common engine thus saving money on maintainace. Not the case with us.

That doesn't make sense since the 117S surpasses the AL-31FP by a massive margin in every parameter.

For example, for a 6000-hour airframe life, the MKI needs 3 sets of AL-31FP. If life is extended to 8000 hours through SLEP, then it needs 4 sets. With 117S, you only need 2 sets. So your engine requirement is effectively half. The savings there can already be imagined.

How much power will a su30 sized aesa require ! With aesa it is more about gain and. Cooling then power available , NO? Would like to be corrected here!

Difficult to say. It could be less than Irbis-E or more than Irbis-E, depending on the tech used, so MKI may end up with a barely acceptable radar or a completely outdated radar. Don't forget we plan to use this radar for the next 15-20 years, so it has to cater to future threats also and has to be as advanced as possible.

Costs may be the reason to avoid engine upgrade or limit the no. of airframes with engine upgrade.

With radar and engine upgrade Along with all the work and tech share and new ew suite we may be looking at very hefty sum for 272 fighters but I suppose earlier once won't be upgraded.

Upgrades are always hefty in terms of price. But you gotta pay a lot to keep your aircraft relevant. Anyway, I don't think HVT is aware of the existence of the Su-30SM1, or else he wouldn't have made such a post.

 

[randomradio]

Mid-Life Update (MLU): New Mission computer, HMD, MAWS, New EW suite, Full range of new weapon integration, airframe life increase to 30+ years.
Super Upgrade: All MLU features + AESA radar, AL-41 engine, New cockpit

You're gonna have to move the AESA radar and new cockpit to the MLU plan, since it has already been done.

You can ask for airframe changes and new engine on the Super upgrade, but it would be cheaper to just buy the Su-30SM1 with the MLU configuration instead. This would become the Super Sukhoi. But more Rafales are a better option for obvious reasons.

MKI's MLU has to be done in phases since the procurement of all 270 happened over a 20-year period. Possibly 4 phases of 50-80 each. So each phase could come with different avionics, just like Jaguar DARIN I, II and III. So, after 15 years, the entire MKI fleet will be a potpourri of different aircraft.

Re-engining the entire fleet is just impossible. We have ordered 900+ AL-31 for the entire life cycle of the fleet and we are making it from scratch with all the supply chain in place. Also, airframe life would have mostly consumed by the time you put a new engine to it.

I don't think this is going to be such a big problem. All the T-90s are going to get new engines after MLU, even though we have the license to produce the current engines.

 

[Ashwin]

You're gonna have to move the AESA radar and new cockpit to the MLU plan, since it has already been done.

I was considering MLU as purely Indian initiative. I don't think a scaled-up UTTAM would outmatch Bars.

You can ask for airframe changes and new engine on the Super upgrade, but it would be cheaper to just buy the Su-30SM1 with the MLU configuration instead. This would become the Super Sukhoi. But more Rafales are a better option for obvious reasons.

Which is not possible.

MKI's MLU has to be done in phases since the procurement of all 270 happened over a 20-year period. Possibly 4 phases of 50-80 each. So each phase could come with different avionics, just like Jaguar DARIN I, II and III. So, after 15 years, the entire MKI fleet will be a potpourri of different aircraft.

Yes can be in phases, First MLU then Super.

I don't think this is going to be such a big problem. All the T-90s are going to get new engines after MLU, even though we have the license to produce the current engines.

Really? You are comparing with a tank? Aero engines are far more complex and expensive to master.

For example, for a 6000-hour airframe life, the MKI needs 3 sets of AL-31FP. If life is extended to 8000 hours through SLEP, then it needs 4 sets. With 117S, you only need 2 sets. So your engine requirement is effectively half. The savings there can already be imagined.

We have already committed for 3 sets and going for engine change halfway the airframe life defeats the purpose.

 

[Milspec]

IMO, IAF should adopt two parallel MLU/upgrade paths for MKI. Super upgrade and basic avionics upgrade. It shouldn't be exclusive.

Mid-Life Update (MLU): New Mission computer, HMD, MAWS, New EW suite, Full range of new weapon integration, airframe life increase to 30+ years.
Super Upgrade: All MLU features + AESA radar, AL-41 engine, New cockpit

MLU can cover ~180 airframes while Super upgrade limited to 3-4 squadrons (60-80 airframes).

Re-engining the entire fleet is just impossible. We have ordered 900+ AL-31 for the entire life cycle of the fleet and we are making it from scratch with all the supply chain in place. Also, airframe life would have mostly consumed by the time you put a new engine to it.

@Milspec

If straight logic worked with the IAF then life would have been much easier.

MLU: Engine upgrade is not necessary, but engine improvement should not be out of scope. The way Airframe life extension works are by analyzing used airframes and a bunch of tests for stress concentration zones and designing its remedial measures. Some designs have better potential to do so than others. MLU definitely needs complete landing gear change, which provides the opportunity to incorporate some changes such as lighter components, better synchronization of LGU and Airframe.

The best MLU program has to be the F16 family's incremental program, And HAL can be a lead integrator for the same for the platform. Instead of having one MLU program, MKI would be ideal to have two to three upgrade program, such as
MLU I1 Export - Base Su30/27 to SU30BM upgrade - IFF/MAWS/TVC Engine/ Russian Weapons package.
MLU I2Super - Base SU30 to SU30MKI-SUper Indian Mission Comps, Israeli/French EW suite, Brahmos/Zircon/3M54/Quad rail Exocet/Twin Brahmos NG, AESA Radar (Indian/Russian/Israeli), Engine- AL31FP,
MLU I3 - BM-MKI/M/A/V TO BM2-MK2I/2M/2A/2V - AL41 series upgrade, Supercruise,Modular Weapons/avionics : Custom Global Weapons, and Avionics package from US/France/India/Israel/Russia.
I4 I5 and so on.

 

[randomradio]

Which is not possible.

More Rafales or Super Sukhoi?

The Super Sukhoi is not going to happen, but the new engine is a drop fit. All the Russian Flankers will get the 117S, even the ones carrying the Al-31FP.

Yes can be in phases, First MLU then Super.

It won't happen in either of the ways you said though. The radar upgrade in particular is the main agenda.

Really? You are comparing with a tank? Aero engines are far more complex and expensive to master. We have already committed for 3 sets and going for engine change halfway the airframe life defeats the purpose.

The complexity doesn't matter. It's a problem for the bureaucracy. Engine can be changed at half the airframe's life. Only the West make engines that last longer.

You haven't done the math either. The MKIs can last at least 8000 to 9000 hours with SLEP, 3 sets of engines simply won't be enough. Also, almost an entire set of the engines is needed as reserve. So there's effectively 2-2.5 sets of operationally available engines that will provide 2000 hours each. Another problem is the engines are not giving their full 2000-hour life, 'cause it's Russian. And then engine life will also decrease depending on how the aircraft is flown. And this is not counting the number of engines that have failed, it's unknown if these engines have been put back into service. You can also expect many engines to be cannibalised for spares.

One more thing, production of the AL-31FP is set to end in 2022. So this will follow the production of new engines, whether it's more AL-31FP or 117S.

 

[Austerlitz]

Big question for me is whether al-31 can power a huge AESA like su-30 nose size one will be.