Anywhere between 2006-07.
Well additional mki and mig 29s have been ordered.
Yes. I support ordering additional 36 Rafales in the meantime until the advent of ORCA.
Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions
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I meant fighter jets..
Yeah Su 30 mki replacement jets may get orders to utilize Hal capacity.
I hope upgrade deal also signed together
Mig 29 , I am doubtful, since our standards don't have aesa, and we are talking about retiring mig 29 earlier than Mirage 2005.
No we haven't signed yet for additional Su 30 mki or Mig 29
No sir. Additional MKIs and Mig 29s are urgently needed for compensating the lost aircrafts due to accidents. We can fairly expect an order to that effect soon even if not in Defexpo 2020(That is just my hunch anyways).
Long ago, when Modi came into office, a commission recommended creating two OEMs within the private sector for each major platform. This was how SPM was created.
So two private OEMs each for helicopters, fighter jets, ships/subs and armoured vehicles.
Su-35 isn't below 30T weight.
Why should we buy Su-35 when MKI is better and even more proven? Why not just buy more MKIs instead?
That doesn't make sense?
Again doesn't make sense. MKI's upgrade will make it far superior to Su-35, including composites.
Nope.
Oof. $45M.
They have only 50 jets there.
Su-35 is not 30T.
If we maically have enough money, even if IAF buys 126 Su-35 due to govt pressure, they still need 200 Rafales. It's not either/or.
We pay more money to Russia for an inferior jet?
That's impossible. ToT takes 10+ years to absorb.
The IAF lives in reality. That's why they rejected the Su-35 long ago, due to duplication of capabilities with MKI.
Lol. Both jets have the same service ceiling.
The Chinese Flankers won't even see Rafale.
That's now how it works. Let's talk about it when an IOC Su-57 is in operational service. Right now it's only in LRIP.
Now where does this debate of weight came from? I don't give a damn on the MTOW of Su 35.
Su 35 with Su 57 electronics is way better than mki. And in the same price of buying more MKIs we will get them.
It perfectly do. The time when WS 15 will go operational will be the time when J20s will go into full production ( they are in limited production even now) and since we will have no counter at that time against them expect some Panic in our defence circle. Buying some su 57 will be the only choice left for us.
Now don't say that because that means we will change the entire airframe in the upgrade. Nothing of that sort is going to happen. And I am not against upgrading our mki fleet. On the contrary buying Su 35 will streamline that process. And it also the question of more numbers.
Yes.
That includes the cost of installation and logistic package. Unit cost is lower.
Present force level of PLAAF is
Su 30 - 76
Su 35 - 24
J 11 - 346
J 16 - 128
Now Chinese aim to fill the gap b/w them and USAF which is couple of thousand
And they are going to fill it through J 20s, J16s and J 31.
Just imagine the no of heavy fighters we will required to face in coming decades.
So what??
No a combo of ORCA and Su 35 will make Rafale needless.
Su 35 is not an inferior jet. Please don't distort the facts.
We will have that time if we sign the deal of Su 35 now.
Yes but older airframe of mki couldn't transform into newer ones. Even after upgradation the mki will serve for two more decades at max far less than required.
Service ceiling of Su 35 - 18km
Rafale - 15 km
I again request you to not distort the facts.
Rhetorics are not going to win us the war. I suggest you to read the opinion of US military strategists on the future of PLA. They are on the opinion that tech gap b/w US and China is going to reduce hugely. Days of overwhelming western tech supremacy are over.
Any order of Su 57 is not going to happen before 2025. So I am ready to wait. But all these facts are true. I don't think Russia or Algeria will order LRIP.
That's the problem. You don't know why the IAF wants the Rafale for at all. You do not realise that even if the IAF buys 500 Su-35, they still need 200 Rafale.
The J-20 is still far, far away from maturing. Even with the new engine. That will also give the Su-57 time to mature, then we can buy a few squadrons at the time, that's only after 2025 or 2030 for us.
Buying Su-35 will do the opposite of what your intentions are. It's a useless jet for us. The problem is you think the MKI and Su-35 are different jets, but they are not.
Unit cost is $45M.
Defence Ministry, Indian Air Force bring down 83 LCA deal cost by over Rs 10,000 crore
Total contract cost will be around 40000 Cr, which puts each jet at $69M.
You can get all this with a simple google search.
You do realise there is only a limited number of jets you can fit inside an airspace right?
Did you forget the PAF had many times more aircraft in the air over the combat area than we did during the Balakot skirmish?
Massive difference. IAF even classifies the jet differently.
Yes, it is. The level of maturity the MKI has reached, the Su-35 is yet to reach. And the MKI is now preparing itself to go to a level higher.
So the upgraded MKI will have all that the Su-35 has and then more. In Russia, the new Su-30SM1 has already achieved the level of the Su-35. The Su-35 has to undergo a modernisation in order to keep up, and the Russians want the IAF as bakras to do that.
So you mean to say we should wait until 2030 to upgrade MKIs?
In all my time on forums, you are the only person who has proposed shelving all the well-thought out plans of the IAF in favour of the most useless aircraft for the IAF.
Lol. Both are the same airframe. Both are called Flanker by NATO. Just because the Russians keep changing the designations doesn't mean anything.
You do not even know what service ceiling means.
Google what's service ceiling first, and then check if aircraft actually have to follow such a standard. Then check why both Rafale and Su-35 have the same service ceiling.
Google won't tell you directly, you have to research and figure it out.
Sure, they say that every time new projects are to begin.
Su-57 is in LRIP. The Russians themselves said the new engine will get IOC in 2025-26.
Algeria ordering Su-57 is just a rumour.
It seems I have failed to make myself clear. I am suggesting to procure the combo of Su35 and ORCA instead of a single Rafale. There is nothing that Rafale could do and this combo can't but there are certainly many things which both of these in combination could do and a single Rafale can't.
No contention on the timeline. We are on the same page on this matter hence no need to further argue it.
Even if they are same the problem is airframe of MKIs are getting older day by day. Present airframes couldn't operate for long. At max till 2045. We need newer airframe ( I am talking about age of the airframe ).
And let us accept the truth. We are overly relied on Russians for the upgradation
( which is urgently needed) of our MKIs. And time is on their side. And they know it perfectly well hence giving us hard time in negotiations. Or why do you think deal is not signed yet. We need a bargaining chip. And what could be better than luring them for a new fighter deal. They are desperate for money afterall.
Well Wikipedia is quoting a price of 39 million. And even with a price of 45 million the combo of MKIA and mk1 is still significantly cheaper than Rafale. Hence no point in further arguing it.
I didn't understand the first part.
As for second that is the very reason we need large no of jets. That is why instead of buying 200 Rafales we should buy 200 Su35 and 200 ORCA in the same price. It will give IAF far more space to conduct operation.
First let us be clear. IAF didn't put any limit on MTOW regarding the participation of jets in MMRCA for a reason.
Second even if there is still the necessity of a 24 tonnes aircraft then in my proposal we are getting it in form of ORCA and also an excellent heavy class fighter for other needs. It is a win win scenario.
Earlier you have said that both are same aircraft and now you yourself backing off from it. Fact is if the mki has attained maturity then Su35 too has attained it given the nearly identical Airframe design with only difference being in constituent material and some slight alteration giving more maneuverable and stealthy design to the latter.
We will simply buy am advance version of Su 35 with electronics of SU 57 and hence we will not required to modernize it.
Never did I said so.
Sir I was referring to the age of Airframe not the difference in design.
I guess you are talking about absolute ceiling.
But that is not the question here. Su 35 do have higher service ceiling hence it could reach heights faster than Rafale making its interception by Rafale fighter nearly impossible.
That maybe half the reason. But other half holds a bitter reality not only for them but for us too.
Let us wait. It will be cleared in couple of months.
ORCA doesn't exist. It's literally a concept.
An airframe is old by looking at the time it was designed, not by how old a factory build airframe is. By design, the Flanker is already 40 years old, never mind it's te Su-27 or the Su-35.
There's no overreliance here. We always go to OEM for upgrades. It's part of the procurement rules.
So your answer is to give them even more money?
That's only unit costs. The fact is I get twice the service life with Rafale than with 1 MKI + 1 Mk1.
You can't fit 100 people in a car that sits 5.
Our border is only 2500Km, not many aircraft can be used at a time. We need large numbers only for attrition warfare, which is no longer possible for anybody at this time.
China has a bigger air force because they have more regions to protect, we do not.
ORCA will cost as much as Rafale. MK1A itself costs $45M. MWF will cost as much as $60M. So you can guess how much ORCA will cost. Nothing is cheap.
MRCA had 20-ton limit and MMRCA had 30-ton limit.
Su 35 have radar cross section of 1 sqm according to some articles while Su 30 is huge. More composites.
Definitely radar and engine spec will be higher.
Russia claims to make it in the same facility of Su 30 mki
Claims more commonality .
Huge internal fuel.
But
Su 30 mki AL31F engines we are making it in India, changing it into Su 35 engines, we can't make it.
We ll have renegotiate.
So most likely we ll upgrade same engines. Albeit with less power increase.
Radar also Russia proposing in stages, to make it pesa first later aesa. So radar capabilities also will be bit lagging than Su 35 radar unless we go for aesa from the beginning.
We cannot change the airframe too much.. .most likely won't be touched.
It's good if they replace air brake and add fuel tank..
We already have more heavy aircrafts with heavy maintenance. So no more su 30 itself.. So no chance for Su 35
We have more air defence and air dominance aircrafts, so again attack aircrafts are needed. Mig 27 & Jaguars are retiring too..
It's just RAM coating for the inlets, also treated canopy. All MKIs can have that done overnight (not literally).
Rumours that they are actually planning to replace metals in the inlets with composites, particularly using radar absorbing structures.
MKI is set to get the same engine.
Radar may be Irbis-E, if not AESA. With the need for sensor fusion, our version may be much more upgraded than Su-35's radar.
HAL plans to make MWF there now.
Same engine.
Su-30SM1 has been created with Irbis-E and 117S in Russia.
Russian Aerospace Forces to receive upgraded Su-30SM1 fighters
There will be some changes. Particularly for lower RCS. Like composites for inlets. There is a chance moving surfaces will also be made of composites, like the canards can be made using materials that have low reflectivity. Canopy has to be changed. I'm hoping the air brake is removed. And so on.
Agree.
Yes and no. We need new technology, particularly non-Russian, that's the idea behind both SE and TE MII. Air dominance is the primary role for these aircraft. But due to infusion of new technology, these jets will come with more robust strike capability than what's on the MKI. Overall, all three types of jets can perform both air dominance and strike quite effectively.
Su35 was tested in actual exercise by IAF the same year when it tested S400.
And it showed that while Su35 definitely has advantages over Su30MKI , it's operational costs are more than double than that of even the Russian Su30SM fleet.
That sounded the death knell for Su35 in IAF. It was thought that after Su30MKI MLU, it will have superior Avionics and Radar along with superior weapons package compared to Su35 while having comparatively less operating costs.
And it showed that while Su35 definitely has advantages over Su30MKI , it's operational costs are more than double than that of even the Russian Su30SM fleet.
That sounded the death knell for Su35 in IAF. It was thought that after Su30MKI MLU, it will have superior Avionics and Radar along with superior weapons package compared to Su35 while having comparatively less operating costs.
That's news to me.
What's impressive is the Russians themselves have purchased 152 Su-30s for themselves, including 36 of the new SM1s. And I'm sure the Russian fleet will easily exceed 200 in the near future, if not more. In comparison, they have bought 98 Su-35s. They are also unable or unwilling to produce more Su-35s every year for some reason.
Is it not possible to introduce DSI intake in MKI, few composite parts such as doors, quatz radome and stealthy canopy etc to reduce RCS.
Uttam is scalable so can be used as aesa.
We can negotiate a deal with Russia to uprate engine using DSM 4 SCB developed in house.
If we are able introduce DSI, quartz radome, canopy with interior ram paint and all doors and moving surfaces with composite material, RCS can be brought down significantly??
Please elobrate. Any knowledgable person.
Uttam is scalable so can be used as aesa.
We can negotiate a deal with Russia to uprate engine using DSM 4 SCB developed in house.
If we are able introduce DSI, quartz radome, canopy with interior ram paint and all doors and moving surfaces with composite material, RCS can be brought down significantly??
Please elobrate. Any knowledgable person.
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DSI does not equal stealth ! (Its a myth perpetuated by JF worshipers). DSI contributes to better air intake characteristics which are dependent on the overall design of the fighter.
For example, DSI is not optimal for supercruise designs like F-22. LM had the technology matured back in the early 90's. They choose not to integrate it with the stealthiest fighter ever designed. But F-35 design is a perfect candidate for DSI because it is subsonically optimized. Even for the AMCA design we chose not to use it.
But it surely will if we provide it proper funding. In form of LCA we have tried and tested airframe. While electronics derive from AMCA program. We already have GE 414 engines to power it. With all things in place I don't see any reason as to why ORCA couldn't exist.
We should always encourage indigenous platforms. We need a 24 tonne aircraft. And if an indigenous option could be available in near future we should pursue it instead of buying a foreign one no matter how ' mature' it is. Foreign option is not much mature anyways in the form of Rafale.
No that was not my point. My point was that you couldn't keep an Airframe forever no matter how much you upgrade it. That is why we need to retire aircrafts after a lifespan. No mki present in our fleet can take upto 2060. But we would be needing them even then. So we should buy newer airframes. Now we have two options 1st to procure more MKIs and second to procure Su35mki. I will go with the latter for obvious reasons.
And who sir, is going to force them to comply on that procurement rule??? And yes there is overreliance because no understanding about the upgradation of mki was made during procurement that is why we are negotiating a new deal from scratch. We have to live in the reality sir. You want a good deal you have to offer something in return. Russia will not provide you it's best tech without getting some more benefit.
And yes selecting su35 in MMRCA will solve this problem forever because we will get full TOT and in future when it will be needed we would be able to upgrade the su 35 with indigenous systems.
Yes to get something you have to give something. Deal is excellent in my point of view. You are getting upgraded MKIs and in addition lots of its upgraded version with full TOT ( which was not the case during procurement of MKIs and that is the reason we are facing so much problem in upgrading them).
Well I was only concerned with unit cost.
Yes but those 100 people can be ferried in batches by the same car.
Leaving that aside we have 15316 or so km land border ( about 7500 of it we share with China and Pakistan.) and 7500 or so km of coastline. In addition to it we have A&N island chain and several bases in foreign countries. So your argument of limited needs doesn't hold ground.
Now from where did you get that number sir. I suggest you to check your facts before posting.
And your second part is even more ridiculous as it attrition warfare for which our forces continuously prepare for and all their procurement plan are also made by keeping that in mind. Spending 15 billion $ for a limited skirmish is not what I perceive is thinking of IAF behind MMRCA.
You have made the sweeping statement about the impossibility of attrition warfare and hence without giving the thought on the fact that it is the conventional capability itself that is ensuring the deterence.
But that doesn't mean they will not field the majority of their assets against us in the case of conflict.
Nope. Rafales are going to be costlier day by day. We have paid nearly 95 million $ for F3R version. It will increase with F4 version, even more in F 4.1 and so on. Mass production may reduce the cost but not much as 114 is not such a big number in itself.
AFAIK there is no limit or Su 35 has been rejected from the outset.
And it will. It just need our support. And we must give it. I have faith in ADA chief and our indigenous capabilities.
Apart from using extensive composite materials and having no canards, not much.
But wasn't it you who said they are essentially same aircraft. Please stick to your statement.
Su 35 has far lower RCS ( which will remain the case even after upgradation of mki ) and more maneuverable design.
But from starting my point was not of superiority of Su 35 vis a vis mki but of purchasing a newer Airframe which can last till 2060 or beyond.
Look sir service ceiling is the altitude where the rate of climb of an aircraft drops below than 100 ft/sec. In case of Rafale it is 15km and in case Su 35 it is 18 km
Hence a flanker can easily attain more help get in the same amount of time in comparison to Rafale. My argument stands rock solid with proof.
Another sweeping statement without taking the pain in going into subtleties.
Chines have fastest supercomputer. Their AI capabilities are second to none. Their cyber warfare skills and space capabilities are headache even for US. They are rapidly advancing in semi conductor technology and stealth tech and made some marks which is not even reached by US. They have shown their level of technology in EW and DEW domain recently. Even US is gaping for an answer to their long range precision missiles.
But the real concern is that they are going to actively field these technologies in their future weapon systems. We need to catch up. We are not US.
Wrong. In su 35 there is extensive use composites in wings and fuselage too. MKIs will never have them.
I am of two opinion on that. While I will welcome use of composites wherever possible in Airframe of mki during upgrade the problem is any change in airframe will increase the time of upgradation manifolds. So IAF may opt against it. Anyways it the RCS still will not come at the level of Su35.
In MMRCA we will get AESA version of Irbis E version ( Chinese too got it) and even Byelka system. Selection of su 35 in MMRCA will not only give us best 4.5 gen but it will also help us in upgrading our MKIs to next level.
Maybe, maybe not. In either case inferior to su 35. Reason already given.
Just a myth. European technology can not come close to US or Russian ones as both of the latter put far more money than the formers in R&D. There is nothing in Rafale F4.1 or 4.2 which will be more advance than Byelka systems.