The Indian Navy's MH-60R & Naval Dhruv UHM Helicopters

[Gautam]

Indian Navy drops HAL, Reliance from its shortlist in the $3 B chopper programme

Foreign OEMs Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky, Airbus and Russian Helicopters receive go-ahead; matter to come up before DAC on Nov. 28

November 22, 2019 By Vishal ThaparPhoto(s): By Airbus Helicopters, Airbus, Russian Helicopters, Lockheed Martin

Pic : AS565 MBe.

The tender for this programme - the first under the Strategic Partnership Model - is likely to be issued in the first half of 2020

The Indian Navy wants the public sector kept out of $3 Billion Make in India programme to build 111 Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) under the Strategic Partnership Model.

Public Sector giant Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and its joint venture with Russian Helicopters, India-Russia Helicopters Limited (IRHL) have been dropped from the final shortlist of Indian Strategic Partnership hopefuls.

From the private sector, Reliance and Laxmi Machine Works have been omitted from the shortlist, according to informed sources.

The Indian companies on the shortlist are Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL), Mahindra Defence, Adani Aerospace & Defence and Bharat Forge.​

The shortlist of both Indian and foreign companies is likely to come up for final approval before India's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) at its meeting scheduled for November 28, it is reliably learnt.

The Indian companies on the shortlist are Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL), Mahindra Defence, Adani Aerospace & Defence and Bharat Forge.

Pic : H145M

All the foreign OEMs which responded to the Expression of Interest (EoI) as technology providers to the Indian Strategic Partner earlier this year have made the shortlist.

These include Airbus Helicopters - which is fielding the AS565 MBe Panther and H145M, Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky for the S-76D and Russian Helicopters for the Ka-226T.

The tender for this programme - the first under the ambitious Strategic Partnership Model - is likely to be issued to the four shortlisted Indian companies in the first half of 2020.

Airbus and Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky have declared partnerships with Mahindra and TASL respectively while Russian Helicopters is learnt to have arrived at a "gentleman's handshake" agreement with Adani. The big question is whether Airbus will field both the AS565 MBe Panther and the H145M. If it does, this could open doors for a tie-up with Bharat Forge, which could complete the line-up.​

Under the SP Model, a shortlisted Indian company can submit only one bid in partnership with a foreign OEM. But a foreign OEM can tie-up with multiple Indian partners.

Pic : Ka-226T

Airbus and Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky have declared partnerships with Mahindra and TASL respectively while Russian Helicopters is learnt to have arrived at a "gentleman's handshake" agreement with Adani.

The big question is whether Airbus will field both the AS565 MBe Panther and the H145M. If it does, this could open doors for a tie-up with Bharat Forge, which could complete the line-up.

The Indian companies have been shortlisted by the Indian Navy with technical advice by SBI Caps on the basis of Financial Gates, Technical Gates and Segment-Specific Gates.

Pic : S-76D

The tender will spell out details on the Make in India plan and the trial methodology. The Indian Navy is learnt to be seeking 40 per cent indigenous content across the programme.

The trials of the shortlisted helicopters will take place in the "green configuration" as per existing features. The finally selected helicopter will require changes as per the requirement of the Indian Navy. For instance, of the four helicopters in the fray, only the Airbus AS565MBe has an existing military variant.

Indian Navy drops HAL, Reliance from its shortlist in the $3 B chopper programme

 

[_Anonymous_]

Indian Navy drops HAL, Reliance from its shortlist in the $3 B chopper programme

Foreign OEMs Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky, Airbus and Russian Helicopters receive go-ahead; matter to come up before DAC on Nov. 28

November 22, 2019 By Vishal ThaparPhoto(s): By Airbus Helicopters, Airbus, Russian Helicopters, Lockheed Martin
View attachment 11500
Pic : AS565 MBe.

The tender for this programme - the first under the Strategic Partnership Model - is likely to be issued in the first half of 2020

The Indian Navy wants the public sector kept out of $3 Billion Make in India programme to build 111 Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) under the Strategic Partnership Model.

Public Sector giant Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and its joint venture with Russian Helicopters, India-Russia Helicopters Limited (IRHL) have been dropped from the final shortlist of Indian Strategic Partnership hopefuls.

From the private sector, Reliance and Laxmi Machine Works have been omitted from the shortlist, according to informed sources.

The Indian companies on the shortlist are Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL), Mahindra Defence, Adani Aerospace & Defence and Bharat Forge.​

The shortlist of both Indian and foreign companies is likely to come up for final approval before India's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) at its meeting scheduled for November 28, it is reliably learnt.

The Indian companies on the shortlist are Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL), Mahindra Defence, Adani Aerospace & Defence and Bharat Forge.

View attachment 11501
Pic : H145M

All the foreign OEMs which responded to the Expression of Interest (EoI) as technology providers to the Indian Strategic Partner earlier this year have made the shortlist.

These include Airbus Helicopters - which is fielding the AS565 MBe Panther and H145M, Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky for the S-76D and Russian Helicopters for the Ka-226T.

The tender for this programme - the first under the ambitious Strategic Partnership Model - is likely to be issued to the four shortlisted Indian companies in the first half of 2020.

Airbus and Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky have declared partnerships with Mahindra and TASL respectively while Russian Helicopters is learnt to have arrived at a "gentleman's handshake" agreement with Adani. The big question is whether Airbus will field both the AS565 MBe Panther and the H145M. If it does, this could open doors for a tie-up with Bharat Forge, which could complete the line-up.​

Under the SP Model, a shortlisted Indian company can submit only one bid in partnership with a foreign OEM. But a foreign OEM can tie-up with multiple Indian partners.

View attachment 11502
Pic : Ka-226T

Airbus and Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky have declared partnerships with Mahindra and TASL respectively while Russian Helicopters is learnt to have arrived at a "gentleman's handshake" agreement with Adani.

The big question is whether Airbus will field both the AS565 MBe Panther and the H145M. If it does, this could open doors for a tie-up with Bharat Forge, which could complete the line-up.

The Indian companies have been shortlisted by the Indian Navy with technical advice by SBI Caps on the basis of Financial Gates, Technical Gates and Segment-Specific Gates.

View attachment 11503
Pic : S-76D

The tender will spell out details on the Make in India plan and the trial methodology. The Indian Navy is learnt to be seeking 40 per cent indigenous content across the programme.

The trials of the shortlisted helicopters will take place in the "green configuration" as per existing features. The finally selected helicopter will require changes as per the requirement of the Indian Navy. For instance, of the four helicopters in the fray, only the Airbus AS565MBe has an existing military variant.

Indian Navy drops HAL, Reliance from its shortlist in the $3 B chopper programme

Any reason why HAL LUH can't participate in this tender? Besides haven't the Russians already tied up with HAL for co manufacturing of the Ka 226T ? Or is it the case as the article states, foreign OEMs are at liberty to tie up with more than one Indian partner for such programs?

 

[Gautam]

Any reason why HAL LUH can't participate in this tender?

The timelines for signing the deal given here is first half of 2020. So like seven months from now. The HAL LUH won't get IOC by then. HAL knows it, which is why they partnered with the Russians.

Besides haven't the Russians already tied up with HAL for co manufacturing of the Ka 226T ? Or is it the case as the article states, foreign OEMs are at liberty to tie up with more than one Indian partner for such programs?

I am still quite confused about it myself. We have the Russians tying up with HAL and Adani, the Airbus fielding 2 choppers with 2 partners. I am not sure what's going on here.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The timelines for signing the deal given here is first half of 2020. So like seven months from now. The HAL LUH won't get IOC by then. HAL knows it, which is why they partnered with the Russians.

Doesn't make sense. Especially when the LUH is projected to supply up to 200 such nos (?) to the IA & IAF. Unless I'm mixing up LCH requirements with LUH. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Besides, even if the LUH receives the IOC next year, can't they go ahead with LSP catering to IA, IAF & IN requirements, assuming FOC isn't too far ahead? According to you, Isn't that the reasoning behind why the MoD is dragging it's feet on signing the contract & releasing the order for Ka-226 T.

PKS is of the opinion that the original SQRs were not even for twin engined Helos for the Utility Helicopters required for all the services. Besides I'm not sure whether I read it in PKS's blog or @randomradio writings, that the cumulative requirements for Utility helos of all the services along with the paramilitaries like BSF, ICG & other requirements exceed 1000 nos.

 

[Gautam]

Doesn't make sense. Especially when the LUH is projected to supply up to 200 such nos (?) to the IA & IAF. Unless I'm mixing up LCH requirements with LUH. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Besides I'm not sure whether I read it in PKS's blog or @randomradio writings, that the cumulative requirements for Utility helos of all the services along with the paramilitaries like BSF, ICG & other requirements exceed 1000 nos.

I am not aware of the projected numbers. However it shouldn't be surprising that the combined projected need of the lightest weight utility transporter of a military as large as India runs in to 1000 units. The upcoming IBGs will require additional transporters(both land and air) and the smallest transporter will be mass ordered. Or at least I hope it does.

Besides, even if the LUH receives the IOC next year, can't they go ahead with LSP catering to IA, IAF & IN requirements, assuming FOC isn't too far ahead? According to you, Isn't that the reasoning behind why the MoD is dragging it's feet on signing the contract & releasing the order for Ka-226 T.

The requirements of the Navy are quite unique, I am afraid. Reason why the ALH Dhruv, despite being used by the Army, Air force, BSF and even Coast Guards, finds very limited usage in the Navy. Even if the rest find the LUH perfectly usabe, the Navy might not. Besides HAL knows more about the LUH then you and me. Why do you think they aren't fielding it ?

PKS is of the opinion that the original SQRs were not even for twin engined Helos for the Utility Helicopters required for all the services.

They are keeping their options open to avoid a single vendor situation. I'll be damned if the Navy goes for a single engined helo.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The requirements of the Navy are quite unique, I am afraid. Reason why the ALH Dhruv, despite being used by the Army, Air force, BSF and even Coast Guards, finds very limited usage in the Navy. Even if the rest find the LUH perfectly usabe, the Navy might not. Besides HAL knows more about the LUH then you and me. Why do you think they aren't fielding it ?

Is it a case of HAL not fielding this helo Or the IN not inviting this particular product by HAL for consideration? Any idea on what the SQR's are?

Besides if the final nos are going to be around 1000 nos then there's space for both LUH & Ka-226. But then with the IN having specific requirements , what happens if another 3rd party gets in. We'd have another logistical nightmare with 3 players for the 2 we now field. Besides, any idea on the nos requirements of IN for the NUH?

 

[Gautam]

Is it a case of HAL not fielding this helo Or the IN not inviting this particular product by HAL for consideration?

The Navy doesn't choose which helo a manufacturer will bring. That's up to the manufacturer. This is how Airbus is fielding two helos. Besides HAL-Russian helicopters' offer of the Ka-226T just got rejected. HAL still has an option of fielding the LUH or even the ALH. Let's see what they do.

Any idea on what the SQR's are?

To the best of my knowledge they were never made public. I could be wrong.

Besides if the final nos are going to be around 1000 nos then there's space for both LUH & Ka-226. But then with the IN having specific requirements , what happens if another 3rd party gets in.

The Ka-226 will, if purchased, remain in limited quantities. Possibly in smaller quantities than the projected number NUH to be used by the Navy. Most of that pie will be taken up by the LUH. As long as the spares and services of the LUH are sorted it should be fine.

Let's look at the current scenario : Army uses the Cheetah/Cheetal combo for light transport nad Dhruv for medium transport, AF uses Mi-17 for medium, Navy uses Cheetah for light transport and the Sea King for medium transport(sometimes the Dhruv too). Think the logistical problems we face today. If we can change the current scenerio to where there is only 2 types of light transporter and 2 types of medium transporter that would improve the situation.

Ideally I'd have preferred having just one light transporter. But that is not practical today. Which is why I do hope we cancel the Ka-226 deal.

Besides, any idea on the nos requirements of IN for the NUH?

111 for now. Subject to change as always.

 

[randomradio]

Doesn't make sense. Especially when the LUH is projected to supply up to 200 such nos (?) to the IA & IAF. Unless I'm mixing up LCH requirements with LUH. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Besides, even if the LUH receives the IOC next year, can't they go ahead with LSP catering to IA, IAF & IN requirements, assuming FOC isn't too far ahead? According to you, Isn't that the reasoning behind why the MoD is dragging it's feet on signing the contract & releasing the order for Ka-226 T.

LUH can't be used by the navy, it's single engine.

HAL will make 187 LUH for air force and army though.

PKS is of the opinion that the original SQRs were not even for twin engined Helos for the Utility Helicopters required for all the services. Besides I'm not sure whether I read it in PKS's blog or @randomradio writings, that the cumulative requirements for Utility helos of all the services along with the paramilitaries like BSF, ICG & other requirements exceed 1000 nos.

Yeah, 1000+.

 

[_Anonymous_]

LUH can't be used by the navy, it's single engine.

HAL will make 187 LUH for air force and army though.



Yeah, 1000+.

Isn't the IN using the Cheetah now? So, why can't they use the LUH in the same capacity?

 

[Ashwin]

Any reason why HAL LUH can't participate in this tender? Besides haven't the Russians already tied up with HAL for co manufacturing of the Ka 226T ? Or is it the case as the article states, foreign OEMs are at liberty to tie up with more than one Indian partner for such programs?

HAL never submitted LUH but ALH Dhruv. Tender is for twin-engine heli to start with.

The timelines for signing the deal given here is first half of 2020. So like seven months from now. The HAL LUH won't get IOC by then. HAL knows it, which is why they partnered with the Russians.

I am still quite confused about it myself. We have the Russians tying up with HAL and Adani, the Airbus fielding 2 choppers with 2 partners. I am not sure what's going on here.

SP model is not the usual DPP style tender process. Here choosing the Indian and foreign OEM are two parallel processes after RFI. Which is now over. The model was formulated to build up the capacity of the private industry. IN is just following it by rejecting HAL as the Indian partner. Russian helicopter expected it thus as a backup they have Adani (Enough causation for the next Rafale scam fiasco? ).

Mahindra-Airbus = AS565 Panther
TATA-Sikorsky = S-76D
Adani-Russian Helicopters = Ka-226T
Bharat Forge-Airbus = H135M (If airbus wants to make a second bid)

 

[_Anonymous_]

HAL never submitted LUH but ALH Dhruv. Tender is for twin-engine heli to start with.


SP model is not the usual DPP style tender process. Here choosing the Indian and foreign OEM are two parallel processes after RFI. Which is now over. The model was formulated to build up the capacity of the private industry. IN is just following it by rejecting HAL as the Indian partner. Russian helicopter expected it thus as a backup they have Adani (Enough causation for the next Rafale scam fiasco? ).

Mahindra-Airbus = AS565 Panther
TATA-Sikorsky = S-76D
Adani-Russian Helicopters = Ka-226T
Bharat Forge-Airbus = H135M (If airbus wants to field a second bid)

Hence given that there's going to be a total requirement of 1000 nos in the next decade for all the services & para militaries combined ( which will be an urgent need) & given IN needs twin engined helos, balancing this with the need to develop capacities in the pvt sector, I won't be in the least surprised if we end up with 3 different helos in varying quantities - LUH, Ka-226T & possibly a third one for the IN. So much for ending the logistical nightmare we currently face.

 

[randomradio]

Isn't the IN using the Cheetah now? So, why can't they use the LUH in the same capacity?

Requirements change.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Requirements change.

I'm asking for the justification. These are light utility helos operating at sea level not at 5000 mtrs above it, unless the IN thinks every second helo it operates, light medium or heavy needs redundancies in engines.

 

[randomradio]

Hence given that there's going to be a total requirement of 1000 nos in the next decade for all the services & para militaries combined ( which will be an urgent need) & given IN needs twin engined helos, balancing this with the need to develop capacities in the pvt sector, I won't be in the least surprised if we end up with 3 different helos in varying quantities - LUH, Ka-226T & possibly a third one for the IN. So much for ending the logistical nightmare we currently face.

It's just light helicopters. There is no need to buy the same thing. Especially considering the numbers being ordered.

It's a problem only when you are going for a few of the expensive stuff. Like just buying 10 Herons and 10 Predators and 20 Rustoms etc.

I'm asking for the justification. These are light utility helos operating at sea level not at 5000 mtrs above it, unless the IN thinks every second helo it operates, light medium or heavy needs redundancies in engines.

IN shouldn't be operting the Chetaks.

 

[Gautam]

HAL bids again for chopper project ‘reserved’ for private companies

By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Updated: Nov 27, 2019, 11.24 AM IST

NEW DELHI: In a last-ditch effort to make an entry into a Rs 21,000 crore project to manufacture naval helicopters, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has written to the defence ministry requesting that its bid also be considered.

The mega project under the strategic partnership (SP) model had been ‘reserved’ for the private sector, with the navy already having shortlisted four companies that would be eligible to tie up with a foreign vendor to manufacture 111 Naval Utility Helicopters domestically.

While TATA, Mahindra, Adani and Bharat Forge have been identified as companies that meet the financial and technical criteria required, HAL has been rejected as the bid documents had clearly mentioned that only private sector companies are eligible.

Sources said as the shortlist is yet to be approved by the apex Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC), HAL has requested a reconsideration, stating that it is the most qualified company to build choppers given its history in the aviation sector.

However, the HAL bid is likely to be strongly opposed by the navy that does not want any delays to impact the critical plan. The helicopter bid is also the pilot project under the SP model and would impact the fate of all other plans, including fighter jets and submarine construction. Sources said the matter could come up for discussion during the next meeting of the DAC scheduled on Thursday.

As reported by ET, the pilot project kicked off earlier this year after the ministry sent out a public request for bids. The bid—termed an expression of interest (EoI)—clearly specified that the applicant company needs to be a ‘private sector company’.

Not deterred by this clause, HAL put in two bids for the project—one through the parent PSU and another through its joint venture company with Russian Helicopters. Sources told ET that both the bids have been found to be invalid by the evaluating team that has drawn up the shortlist.

A final call on the matter has to be taken by defence minister Rajnath Singh-led DAC. Private sector companies that have invested in setting up teams and infrastructure for defence manufacturing are closely watching the next moves. A common refrain within the private sector has been that PSUs get an unfair advantage given the large amount of government investments that have gone into them for decades, which makes them difficult to compete with.

The naval helicopter contract, which is expected to be concluded within two years, has now matured into a three-way contest, with foreign companies already tying up with Indian partners. European player Airbus, which has offered two separate choppers for the contract has announced that it will be tying up with Mahindra Defence. US firm Sikorsky, which is now part of the Lockheed Martin group, had formed up an alliance with Tata Aerospace and Defence, and Russian manufacturer Kamov, which is offering its KA 226 chopper for the contract, has an agreement with Bharat Forge to manufacture the helicopters.

Other Indian players who applied for shortlisting but got rejected include Reliance Defence and Laxmi Machine Works. While Adani Defence has been qualified to participate, the company has not managed to forge any partnership for the project yet.

While HAL is unlikely to be selected as a strategic partner, the state-owned company will still get a big share of work and is likely to be a primary tier 1 supplier for the contract given its existing production facilities.

HAL bids again for chopper project ‘reserved’ for private companies

 

[Gautam]

So more ALH Dhruvs and Chetaks incoming @_Anonymous_ @Ashwin @randomradio

https://twitter.com/x/status/1201767399529168896

They will buy more Chetaks but not LUH. Or maybe the LUH will replace the Chetaks in the future.

 

[Ashwin]

So more ALH Dhruvs and Chetaks incoming @_Anonymous_ @Ashwin @randomradio

https://twitter.com/x/status/1201767399529168896

They will buy more Chetaks but not LUH. Or maybe the LUH will replace the Chetaks in the future.

No, those are already ordered stuff. MH-60 24 Romeos will be ordered soon.

But i do not recall Seaking upgrade order.

The UK-made Seaking choppers, inducted into Indian Navy around 40 years ago for purposes of anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface vessel warfare, are ageing, besides the fact that they never underwent upgrades after induction.

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/71608656.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[Gautam]

No, those are already ordered stuff. MH-60 24 Romeos will be ordered soon.

I know, I meant they are about to join services soon. How many ALH does the Navy/Coast Guards use in total ?

 

[Ashwin]

I know, I meant they are about to join services soon. How many ALH does the Navy/Coast Guards use in total ?

Chetaks are stopgap till NUH comes. Each service has 32+ on order/use.

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1202479794845208576