Trump Offers F-35 Jet to India in Push for More Defense Deals
- Thread starter Ginvincible
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Literally nothing to do with 1553.
It's difficult to use T/R simultaneously on a single array due to the limited number of antennas carried by an EW suite. You need receive anntenas on constant receive-only mode without a transmitter nearby interfering with it, 'cause you can't control what you are receiving and that can always interfere with the transmission.
I think you are pretty confident the Israelis will sell their computer and hardware, when it's much more likely they will develop a new one, a more advanced one more relevant to the time period we are gonna get any F-35, and that tech will be a generation ahead.
In fact, they will make our jet more advanced than theirs, and then use the money we spent to develop an even more advanced derivative for themselves.
They do that a lot. The F-15 was designed because the West incorrectly feared the Mig-25.
You do realize that since we can't operate two-seats out of carriers, we gotta buy more single-seat jets.
And it seems you are pushing for local production of the Rafale anyway.
So there's no relevance between Tejas' radar and AMCA's radar, both will be different. Same with EW suite. Same with other sensors. Same with the engine.
Nope. New system.
Even if we change the TEDBF design now, it will take until 2050 to deliver, and we will still need 150 Rafale Ms by then.
Yes, hence the timeline for the next jet will meet IAC-3's. That's what the IN is going for.
Oof.
The IAF has been asking for AoN since 2019. They don't make procurement decisions.
Air Force chief outlines plan to solve shortage of fighter squadrons
You overestimate this type of design.
Watch what our ACM has to say about it.
Needs all-round stealth.
Here he says the Rafale is superior to the J-20.
In another interview I couldn't find, he says aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 are not stealthy.
It is still within the window of what's necessary.
You want 80-150 Rafales instead of 150 TEDBF. So it's obvious you are fine with 4th gen too.
Lol.
That's definitely proof.
Yes, that's why it wasn't introduced in the F-22 and F-35.
It matters. It means you cannot upgrade it beyond that. But NGAD will come with internal transmitters.
No. They wanted a programmable EW suite because the American system is not fast enough to respond.
For stand-off jamming, the F-35 has a programmable multi mission pod already.
Farnborough 2012: Close up view of the mysterious F-35's multimission pod.
Interesting new pod for the F-35 on display at FIA12. I was visiting the booth of Terma, a Danish firm, at Farnborough International Airshow 2012 last
theaviationist.com
No, standoff jamming is something else. They do this outside the enemy's boundary.
What you see the F-35s do in this exercise is called penetrative escort jamming.
Why would they advertise it so soon? It needs to become outdated first.
Why would poor Airbus get itself involved in offsets? Anyway, the MoD has stopped pursuing offsets.
If the Americans don't want a tender, then the F-35 will have to go through an internal non-competitive process. They will have to expose its capabilities to the IAF, and the IAF can run a sort of non-transparent process to decide if it will make do, while doing the same with other offerings. The IAF is not gonna decide without actually testing the jet first.
Any new F-35 purchase will play out in the 2040s in terms of squadron arrangement. So the ones impacted are most likely to be the first 2 LCA squadrons with their 25-year service lives or the early MKI squadrons nearing retirement.
It does - because these arrays have to talk with each other & with the radar on a high throughput channel in order to not interfere.
Why do you think simultaneous jamming capability wasn't possible on early 4th gen jets?
That problem has been addressed through use of TSAs aka Vivaldi arrays. You can have multiple Tx & Rx within the same aperture now. Basically like a radar. And each of their operation is scheduled & managed by the same computer. Unless you want to say that ADA/DRDO are idiots that don't know what they're doing:
And if you observe closely, you'll see that the ASQ-239 apertures in the wings of F-35 are actually Vivaldi antennas as well, just encased in a housing:
So they're very unlikely to be receive-only.
Your problem is that you think Rafale is THE technical standard in military aviation and that the whole world revolves around it.
That still proves my point - that we'll be fine with letting the Israelis handle the computer on our F-35s.
We didn't put an Indian MC on the Rafale even after we spent all that time & money on gold-plating it with ISEs. So saying that we'll insist on our own MC for a stop-gap, one-time purchase of F35 makes no sense.
You're not reading this deal right.
There's been a whole revolution in military affairs since that type of force build-up was the norm. Today, their actions are knowledge-based due to the information-gathering capabilities of the FVEY. Proven as factual as the French are now in a pickle because they made the wrong assessment in choosing to not invest in development of a 5th gen immediately after Rafale. Now Germany is worried about their relations with the US going forward and France has nothing to offer that can replace the F-35 till 2045 minimum.
And why'd they make a wrong assessment? Cuz they guesstimated that the world will not move on to bigger & better things instead of actually gathering intel on Russian/Chinese programs AND properly analyzing them. Even the US bungled this to some extent, but at least not as bad the Europeans did.
And no, just having satellites isn't enough. If the Chinese put out a different plastic mock-up on tarmac each day to confuse watchers, will you end up sanctioning development of 30 different fighter types to counter each of them? It doesn't work like that. IMINT is useless without analysis capability & corroborative intelligence...while most of our bandwidth is taken up in countering the ISI.
That's taken into account. Even the 26 we're buying now have 4 shore-based twin seaters. Only 22 are actual Rafale-Ms. But these two seaters are only meant to support the operations of the carrier-based fleet (through training or otherwise), so they're included.
The IN's original plan for 36 Ms for 1 carrier (which they must have considered a healthy number given our ops tempo from STOBAR) also must have included twin-seaters for shore-based ops.
Tbh, I'd prefer we went with F-35C and used the Navy order to make the IAF's buy cheaper per plane.
But like I said before, I don't think we want to antagonize the French completely like the Aussies have done. Because a Democrat govt by 2029 might reverse anything that Trump signed off on. So it's wise to keep our options open.
Unfortunately, I don't think the Navy's orders will meet Dassault's criteria for a local production line. Because we're unlikely to order all of these planes at once. We're set to go through with 26 right now...which means only 82 more are needed in the best case, and only 46 more in the worst (considering I don't think we'll buy any more for IAF). And we might buy them in 2 or 3 batches.
We need a 100+ jets order at one go in order to get the full production line...otherwise piecemeal assembly of parts is all we'll get. Unless Dassault is ready to compromise given the way Trump is shaking up Europe. But that's for the French to decide.
In that case, 70-75% overall commonality is not possible.
The Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A reportedly have 80% commonality - and that's when we didn't even change the airframe & mechanicals! Just the new radar & DFCC (and some rearranged LRUs) brought it down to only 80% on what is essentially just a block upgrade of Mk-1.
If you think all the avionics & sensors of AMCA are different from Tejas Mk2, besides having a totally new airframe & internal layout, and the commonality only goes down another 5-10%, you're smoking some strong stuff.
So why do we need a new 4.5G naval jet before then? It's one thing if our only option was a foreign jet with lots of strings attached, but we don't have that problem with the French.
Rafale is fine for the medium-term. It won't be able to address the Navy's long-term requirement, but then neither can TEDBF in its current form. Even procuring one of them is only a compulsion brought on by our problems with 29K fleet, Procuring both would be the height of stupidity.
The IAF has been asking for AoN since 2019. They don't make procurement decisions.
“The [vendors’ responses] have already been received for the 114 MRFA case. We have started the process for obtaining AoN (Acceptance of Necessity) now,” said Bhadauria. The AoN, which the defence ministry accords, is the first step in a procurement and is followed by the issuance of an RFP (request for proposals) – the basic tender document.Air Force chief outlines plan to solve shortage of fighter squadrons
www.ajaishukla.com
They've been kicking that ball between each other for half a decade now (or over two decades if you include the original tenders in 2000s). If you still believe they're showing intent, well good luck with that.
I don't think they are.
If they really needed something, GOI would be willing to go GtG even. Like with S400 (or now F35).
What he said literally supports my argument.
If you think you're going to penetrate airspace controlled by J-20B with MKI & LCA, you're asking for us to get slaughtered. Just because the enemy doesn't have all-aspect stealth doesn't mean that suddenly your previous-gen fighters are able to dominate him. In fact in most cases, it's unlikely for the J-20's non-stealthy aspect angles (rear mostly) to be in play. They even have a new mechanism that rolls out the missile from the side bays without needing to keep the door open, so even the RCS penalty of opening the bays is much lower on J-20 than on Western jets.
China's new stealth fighter's missile launch rails prove Beijing can improve U.S. technology
In order to preserve their stealthiness and keep the RCS (Radar Cross Section) as low as possible, radar-evading planes rely on weapons bay: bombs and
theaviationist.com
J-20B is gonna have 9 chances out of 10 to kill our 4th/4.5 gens from BVR while you sit around waiting for the 1 out of 10 chance that he presents a good return angle AND you happen to be in position at the right time to take advantage of it.
That's not a practical strategy.
F-35 in its current form or AMCA Mk-1, even if you dismiss them as not having all-aspect stealth, will be able to fulfill these penetration missions at least till 2045 if support is provided by other assets like CCAs & Rocket Forces. Maybe 1 or 2 planes in the strike package won't survive in the worst case scenario.
But with MKIs & LCAs, you're almost guaranteed to lose the whole package in every sortie. It's gonna be a one way trip...against an enemy that's also likely to have the numerical advantage. You're not talking winning formulas here.
The J-20B didn't even exist when he said this, but that's besides the point.
The brass will say just about anything to pump up morale in front of a generalized, public audience. It's part of their job. You need to analyze in order to know the situation better.
It's like how they submit a report saying we need 42 squadrons to meet the two-front requirement, but if a journalist asks in a press conference like this one regarding IAF's preparedness given Pak-China combine, the brass will inevitably say that IAF is fully capable of meeting the threat. If their ~30 sqdns are enough to meet the threat, why do they need 42?
The fact is, the IAF isn't allowed to admit their shortcomings openly. As this would place upward pressure on GOI, which can then be weaponized by opposition. The forces would rather not insert themselves into a political slugfest if they can avoid it. Hence, discussion of shortcomings is only reserved for closed doors or in front of highly knowledgeable folks who have a very small, distilled audience who are capable of reading nuances. Kinda like Bharat Shakti or DDR...but even there the bravado sometimes seeps through when they see a camera. They know this will ultimately become public.
But even outlets like these are conscious of preserving their access & relationships, so they don't press too much. The exceptions were people who are both technically knowledgeable & are willing to call out the BSing through their writings, as a result of which they often get shadow-banned & excluded from interactions. Like the late Prasun K. Sengupta.
Like I said, I'd prefer the F-35C if we want a serious capability. But flying from STOBAR, we're looking at a sub-optimal operation anyway. Might as well cut in the French as a political concession that could potentially be leveraged for other favours down the line. Like help in SSN program.
But pursuing TEDBF in its current form doesn't do anything for us really. It doesn't bring any capabilities a Rafale UPG can't, it doesn't address any strategic requirement, and spending our R&D budgets on building this will mean we'll be forced to procure a 5th gen stop-gap for the Navy in future (for IAC-3) as we wait for ADA to deliver a new stealth jet at that point.
Might as well do the foreign purchases now & pursue a long-term capability from the get go, leveraging the 5th gen & stealth techs we're already developing for IAF's AMCA.
BAE's page clearly mentions jamming as a capability of the ASQ-239, but you choose to ignore it.
Not necessarily. In fact upgrading a decoy is easier as you're not constrained by the aircraft's internal systems layout. As long as it physically fits in the decoy bay, any upgrade/replacement is good.
NGAD's a whole different beast. As are GCAP/SCAF.
With ~2 MW on tap for 6th gens, they're very likely to incorporate a DEW weapon of some kind as well. Possibly a HPM.
SPJ is kids' stuff in comparison.
That's cuz they're scared of facing asymmetrical threats, like repurposed civilian infrastructure e.g. cell towers.
They need to be able to reprogram rapidly due to the nature of threats they face. But conventional Iranian/Houthi assets aren't more sophisticated than what Russia has which is why the NATO-spec bird doesn't bother with it. But seeing how things are playing out in Ukraine (and given China threat), they might change this as well.
Obviously, any such change will be a drop-fit/patch update. No need to put off purchase to wait for that. We can even hit up the Israelis directly, the same OEM would do it for us as well as long as Uncle Sam signs off on it.
For stand-off jamming, the F-35 has a programmable multi mission pod already.
Farnborough 2012: Close up view of the mysterious F-35's multimission pod.
Interesting new pod for the F-35 on display at FIA12. I was visiting the booth of Terma, a Danish firm, at Farnborough International Airshow 2012 last
That's for standoff jamming across multiple bands. Kinda like NGJ-Lite, but in a stealthy pod.
Eh? What does showing it do?
It's already public knowledge that we asked for it in the ISEs. There ARE things among the ISEs we've chosen to stay quiet about - like the new jammer beneath the nozzles which nobody has anything official to say about.
But the decoy isn't one of them. We were pretty open about it.
'Cause it has nothing to do with 4th or 5th gen or 6th or 7th gen, or even 2nd or 3rd gen.
A jammer does not perform simultaneous transmit and receive because of basic physics, which is a different argument from the first statement I made.
It has nothing to do with the type of antenna either.
The Israelis will handle it, but we gotta pay big bucks. It's not gonna be free.
That's 'cause you are confusing this thing and that thing without understanding what that thing is.
Avionics are very expensive relative to the cost of the entire aircraft.
What he said literally supports my argument.
If you think you're going to penetrate airspace controlled by J-20B with MKI & LCA, you're asking for us to get slaughtered. Just because the enemy doesn't have all-aspect stealth doesn't mean that suddenly your previous-gen fighters are able to dominate him. In fact in most cases, it's unlikely for the J-20's non-stealthy aspect angles (rear mostly) to be in play. They even have a new mechanism that rolls out the missile from the side bays without needing to keep the door open, so even the RCS penalty of opening the bays is much lower on J-20 than on Western jets.
China's new stealth fighter's missile launch rails prove Beijing can improve U.S. technology
In order to preserve their stealthiness and keep the RCS (Radar Cross Section) as low as possible, radar-evading planes rely on weapons bay: bombs and
J-20B is gonna have 9 chances out of 10 to kill our 4th/4.5 gens from BVR while you sit around waiting for the 1 out of 10 chance that he presents a good return angle AND you happen to be in position at the right time to take advantage of it.
That's not a practical strategy.
F-35 in its current form or AMCA Mk-1, even if you dismiss them as not having all-aspect stealth, will be able to fulfill these penetration missions at least till 2045 if support is provided by other assets like CCAs & Rocket Forces. Maybe 1 or 2 planes in the strike package won't survive in the worst case scenario.
But with MKIs & LCAs, you're almost guaranteed to lose the whole package in every sortie. It's gonna be a one way trip...against an enemy that's also likely to have the numerical advantage. You're not talking winning formulas here.
Sure.
Of course, you know more than the IAF Chief.
So you are basically suggesting we should give up on indigenous programs, prevent ADA from learning anything new, and just jump on something that even ADA says they cannot do at this time?
You do realize AMCA requires the assistance of the MRFA partner, right?
You should read again what I said.
I was referring to capability, not the hardware.
What I'm saying is a fully internal EW suite that's stealthy provides capabilities that are not replicable on a decoy, especially when that decoy renders stealth useless.
You keep showing how ignorant you are when it comes to electronics.
Why would you need high power for SPJ?
Ever heard of the Friss transmission formula? If you know what that is, and have done basic calculations using that, you'd know you know nothing about this subject. Literally nothing you have posted about electronics is anywhere close to reality.
Now you are just making stuff up.
You are just repeating what I already said. You don't even know what we are talking about.
The IAF does not show off new capabilities for many years. Whatever we know about our Rafales has come from Dassault, not the IAF.
Mate, from not buying any more Rafales for the IAF beyond 36, you have gone to saying we need to buy up to 150 Rafale Ms for the IN without a production line just to prevent the development of TEDBF.
Unfortunately for you, both MRFA and TEDBF will proceed as usual. They are both advanced and survivable against future threats 'cause the French have proven the system they have developed works, whereas the Americans are the ones rushing to integrate non-stealthy missiles on their F-35s for SEAD and changing their philosophy for survivability on NGAD. Ironically, the Americans are replicating the French, and you cannot see it. Otoh, we are gonna get actual stealth capabilities via purpose-built stealth drones.
You're confusing concepts.
Traditional jammers couldn't do this because they had a single transmitter/receiver. To transmit, they had to turn off receive & vice versa.
On a modern array you can have multiple transceivers, any number of which can be set to transmit or receive as per need. The receivers know what the transmitters are putting out at all times as they're on the same system, so they aren't effected by false targets.
Only problem left to solve was to get the jammer arrays to talk with the radar on a highspeed channel so they don't interfere with the FCR either. That too has been addressed in newer jets thanks to fibre-optic databus.
Some older planes don't bother changing the array arrangement as that would require retesting, but new-build jets are going with combined RWJs. Including Gripen-E, which has what they call a Quadrant Receiver-Transmitter as part of the SAAB Arexis EW suite. Both RWR & jamming functions are managed by the same system:
Now Germany wants to put this same system on their Typhoon EKs:
Germany to Equip Eurofighter Typhoons for Electronic Warfare
A German parliamentary budget committee has approved equipping 15 Eurofighter Typhoons for electronic warfare.
thedefensepost.com
Like I said, your problem is that you think Rafale is the be-all, end-all of airborne capabilities.
So you admit IAF won't be asking for indigenous MC on our F-35. That's what I've been saying from the start.
I should be saying that to describe you.
The % figures quoted are measuring the number & type of components. Nothing to do with cost/value.
And you know more than DRDO so we're even.
That doesn't make any sense.
ADA originally wanted to pursue TEDBF first, and then go to AMCA. That plan is no longer on the table. The current plan has us developing TEDBF after AMCA. There's nothing to learn from building a 4++ gen twinjet that we wouldn't have already learnt in building a 5th gen twinjet.
Except for the experience of building a carrier-capable twinjet. But that's something we'd have to learn anew anyway - regardless of whether we build it as a 4++ or 5th gen. If you think we need to first build a non-stealth twinjet in order to develop a stealthy one later on, that is simply ridiculous.
Pursuing the 4++ gen TEDBF now will mean we'll be forced to procure a CATOBAR-ready 5th gen import for IAC-3 which would have to be that carrier's main jet for at least 10 years.
Your plan just forces us to be dependent on emergency imports even into the 2040s and 2050s.
Not strictly necessary. Any service they can provide can be done via an independent consultation contract as well. It's just that it saves some money if we make it part of the clauses in MRFA contract - but we'd be spending so much more overall on an outdated plane so the independent consultancy contract is actually the better deal.
It's hilarious how everything eventually boils down to ACT with you.
Cuz SPJs ain't gonna work against future threats genius. You're gonna be facing AAMs with AESA seekers, even dual-redundant guidance (RF+IR) is being worked on.
Only way to guarantee evasion is to fry their electronics altogether. Why do you think 6th gen engines are going for such high electrical outputs in the megawatt range? So that the pilot can run an airborne crypto-mining farm?
Maybe if you had learnt how to spell Friis you wouldn't be trying to lecture DRDO, BAE & SAAB on how EW is supposed to work.
Nonsense.
Unfortunately for you, neither will.
LOL.
Is that why they finally want an ARM?
France to develop anti-radiation munition for Rafale from 2025, finally!
Following the withdrawal of the last Jaguars equipped with the AS37 Martel anti-radiation munition at the end of the 90s, the French air force no longer has
meta-defense.fr
"It is precisely the development of this ammunition, called AASF, which has just been announced by the same Ministry of the Armed Forces which judged this need unnecessary, just three years ago, to arm the future Rafale F5, and its Loyal Wingmen combat drone...."
"....At that time, France believed that the Rafale, its SPECTRA self-protection system, and its laser-guided and then GPS-guided precision munitions, will be sufficient to neutralize the few threats of this type that could emerge, while the country was firmly anchored in the period of the benefits of peace, and the reduction in defense credits that it entailed."
I keep telling you, the reason the French didn't develop many capabilities since the 90s isn't because they've figured out some magic EW juice that nobody else knew about - it's cuz they poorly estimated how the threat environment would develop. Period.
Probably cuz they relied on guesstimates (like you want IAF to do as well) instead of actual intel gathering regarding adversary capabilities & intent.
Now, when it comes to payloads (like the new ARM they want), it might be relatively straightforward to develop them within a few years. But platforms? That's much more complicated. This is where the failure to invest in a 5th gen fighter development cycle is gonna byte them in the behind.
But they might still afford to wait till 2045 cuz they're in NATO and Russia is in poor shape to start a war on all of NATO. But we don't have this luxury.
Rafale isn't the platform for IAF. It's inadequate for our needs. It neither suits our philosophy nor our requirements going forward. We may have been ready to buy it back when there were no better options...but today, when indigenous solutions can meet a great number of the roles we needed an MMRCA for, and an offer for F-35 to perform the high-end duties is on the table, Rafale simply makes no sense anymore.
They're going for internally-carried AARGM-ERs. Way stealthier than anything Rafale can carry.
An MKI firing Rudram-3 from standoff range (that beast has like ~500km reach) has a higher chance of successfully conducting SEAD/DEAD than a penetrating Rafale against China.
Of course, NGAD is a Rafale replica.
Dude, the Americans are prepping to fight an enemy far more advanced & capable than anyone France expects to fight. Just because Dassault though that an SPJ is enough to penetrate Russian defences of the 90s/00s doesn't mean that's gonna work against China in the Pacific or across the Himalayas even today.
In the next 20 years, it won't work against even Russia. Which is why they want SCAF. They're already backtracking on the necessity of an ARM cuz they've started to realize their threat environment isn't sedentary anymore.
Even we wouldn't have developed half the things we did if Pakistan was our only threat.
You're confusing concepts.
Traditional jammers couldn't do this because they had a single transmitter/receiver. To transmit, they had to turn off receive & vice versa.
On a modern array you can have multiple transceivers, any number of which can be set to transmit or receive as per need. The receivers know what the transmitters are putting out at all times as they're on the same system, so they aren't effected by false targets.
Only problem left to solve was to get the jammer arrays to talk with the radar on a highspeed channel so they don't interfere with the FCR either. That too has been addressed in newer jets thanks to fibre-optic databus.
Some older planes don't bother changing the array arrangement as that would require retesting, but new-build jets are going with combined RWJs. Including Gripen-E, which has what they call a Quadrant Receiver-Transmitter as part of the SAAB Arexis EW suite. Both RWR & jamming functions are managed by the same system:
View attachment 41007
View attachment 41008
Now Germany wants to put this same system on their Typhoon EKs:
Germany to Equip Eurofighter Typhoons for Electronic Warfare
A German parliamentary budget committee has approved equipping 15 Eurofighter Typhoons for electronic warfare.
Like I said, your problem is that you think Rafale is the be-all, end-all of airborne capabilities.
Congratulations on rewriting history.
Funny how traditional jammers couldn't jam multiple sources before AESA.
And it's impressive that you are impressed by a pod jammer.
And I definitely did not know you plan on using OFC to reduce interference. How are you planning on connecting the cable to the enemy?
Our MC, their integration.
Lol.
DRDO disagrees too. Much more improtantly, CSIR.
The opposite. Pursuing TEDBF now means we don't have to import Rafales or F-35s. And developing a "5th gen" jet from 2035 means we don't need a SCAF import in 2055, we will have our own jet.
Via your method, we will need to import 80-150 Rafale Ms/F-35s, then develop a naval AMCA, and then import SCAF 'cause N-AMCA won't be good enough after 2060.
Via my method, the method actually being pursued by the powers that be, TEDBF 1.0 will make way for TEDBF 2.0.
Lol. Good luck with that.
It's hilarious how you do not know that pods have design and power restrictions unlike flush-mounted antenna arrays embedded in the airframe. This is part of the problem. On the Tejas thread you proved that you have no idea about airframes, and here you keep proving that you do not know anything about electronics either.
AC via pod or embedded transmitters is irrelevant, you can get AC with both. What's special about embedded transmitters is you can make it any size you want and spread it across the entire airframe, and you can deliver endless power to it, far more than what a mere pod can handle. Similar to how the Su-35 and Su-57 carry L band arrays in the wing roots. You can't get that out of pods.
Modern next gen avionics require you to embed antennas everywhere you can find. That's why Rafale is going to get 360 deg arrays all over the aircraft that will perform radar functions as well as EW and comm. FGFA was going to be of a similar design with larger arrays.
Another example of you being clueless about electronics.
SPJs won't work, but that's why in their wisdom, or lack thereof compared to you, the USAF has decided to stick it in the NGAD then, while you are desperately trying to prove the F-35 has one too.
I knew you had to google check that.
Constantly proven time and time again. I in fact told Hellfire years ago that it's a massive disadvantage for the forces in general in terms of PR 'cause even the IA is the same.
We will see.
LOL.
Is that why they finally want an ARM?
France to develop anti-radiation munition for Rafale from 2025, finally!
Following the withdrawal of the last Jaguars equipped with the AS37 Martel anti-radiation munition at the end of the 90s, the French air force no longer has
"It is precisely the development of this ammunition, called AASF, which has just been announced by the same Ministry of the Armed Forces which judged this need unnecessary, just three years ago, to arm the future Rafale F5, and its Loyal Wingmen combat drone...."
"....At that time, France believed that the Rafale, its SPECTRA self-protection system, and its laser-guided and then GPS-guided precision munitions, will be sufficient to neutralize the few threats of this type that could emerge, while the country was firmly anchored in the period of the benefits of peace, and the reduction in defense credits that it entailed."
I keep telling you, the reason the French didn't develop many capabilities since the 90s isn't because they've figured out some magic EW juice that nobody else knew about - it's cuz they poorly estimated how the threat environment would develop. Period.
Probably cuz they relied on guesstimates (like you want IAF to do as well) instead of actual intel gathering regarding adversary capabilities & intent.
Now, when it comes to payloads (like the new ARM they want), it might be relatively straightforward to develop them within a few years. But platforms? That's much more complicated. This is where the failure to invest in a 5th gen fighter development cycle is gonna byte them in the behind.
But they might still afford to wait till 2045 cuz they're in NATO and Russia is in poor shape to start a war on all of NATO. But we don't have this luxury.
Rafale isn't the platform for IAF. It's inadequate for our needs. It neither suits our philosophy nor our requirements going forward. We may have been ready to buy it back when there were no better options...but today, when indigenous solutions can meet a great number of the roles we needed an MMRCA for, and an offer for F-35 to perform the high-end duties is on the table, Rafale simply makes no sense anymore.
Is that why the F-35 is also gonna carry ARMs? Is that why the F-22 is also getting a new ARM?
How about the fact that air defenses have become so numerous that you need a quick response weapon that can help shut down a radar without having to "contest" it?
Internal and external.
Post 177.
Sure.
France is in the same area. Recently Cook Islands allowed the Chinese to station troops on its territory, the islands are smack in between French Polynesia and New Caledonia, and the Chinese are conducting military exercises in the Tasman Sea. So they need to deploy advanced capabilities against the Chinese too. Especially after that circus in the Solomons.
This is how they plan on countering China.
Rafale Sets New Record, Flies Non-Stop For 17000 kilometers In 12 Hours
The Rafale fighter jet keeps displaying its dynamic features from time to time. Equipped with special firepower, Rafale on Friday covered a distance of 17000 kilometers without stopping in just 12 hours.
Do you have reading comprehension problems? I said they couldn't have jammers simultaneously acting as RWR with the same array.
That's not a problem any more, as evidenced by suites on Tejas Mk2, Gripen, Typhoon and F-35.
It's impressive enough that they're supplanting Praetorian with it - a suite that is otherwise equivalent of SPECTRA in most respects.
This is for the new Typhoon EK variant which is a dedicated SEAD aircraft armed with AGM-88E. So apparently, the internal SPJ of Praetorian is insufficient for the SEAD role.
You can't go by the French decisions as a yardstick for anything - they've already admitted to have estimated future requirements badly and are backtracking on payload choices & SEAD strategies. But they are politically restricted from seeking ready-made solutions to their identified problems from likes of US or even Sweden, while Germany doesn't have this issue. They aren't facing any immediate threats on their borders so they can afford to play this game, we can't.
You're just falling for their poker face while I'm card-counting.
You only need to eliminate interference between your own transmitters. Anything the enemy sends is useful data.
Like said before, don't need our own MC for a purchase like this. If we didn't want it on Rafale, there's zero chance we'll want it on F-35.
DRDO disagrees too. Much more improtantly, CSIR.
Everyone with the ability to do so would use some form of ACT as part of ESM repertoire - for use against missile seekers & other weaker transmitters. Americans have been using it since the 90s or before as I previously showed...you just don't use it as a primary means of achieving stealth against modern sensors. If that was the case, we wouldn't have made the AMCA with a stealthy airframe - we'd have gone for the ORCA instead (land-based TEDBF).
Been over this a hundred times now.
Praetorian has its own version of ACT, what they call Virtual Stealth, and as evidenced by Germany's Arexis procurement, they need the podded jammer in order to have a chance against modern IADS.
Pursuing a 5th gen starting 2035 won't necessitate imports but starting the process 10 years earlier will. You sound insane.
We're already working on '5.5' or 6th gen techs to find application on AMCA in the future as per ADA officials. There's no reason we can't adapt those techs into a later version of naval 5th gen, as we already plan to do so on AMCA. We already know how to make some of those abilities plug-and-play.
Besides, beginning the 5th gen program earlier will mean we'll actually be in a position to start work on 6th gen sooner. So no need of SCAF import by 2055 either way.
You do realize the Japanese used to send early models of their ATD-X demonstrator to France for preliminary RCS testing? And guess what, they didn't have to buy 114 MRFA to make that happen.
Our 5th gen engine program competition is also independent of MRFA.
Yeah, deliver endless power out of two smallish 4th gen engines. Hilarious.
The abilities the pods deliver is an order of magnitude above what an internal suite on a 4th gen platform can manage - that is why the Typhoon needs them on top of already having Praetorian. Rafale is almost guaranteed to need them as well if it wishes to successfully conduct SEAD in the 2030s & future - just that the French won't cop to it until & unless they begin their own program. It's a political decision, not a technical one.
NGAD's sensor suite is far away from being decided. Right now they're still figuring out the broad contours of the program. It may need more demonstrators, in different sizes & shapes. Only thing we know for sure at this point is that it'll come with a 6th gen engine that would have about a 2-3x increase in electrical output over F135, just as a starting point.
SPJ will be a legacy capability - you don't need to use a DEW on every single threat. It's possible they combine the functions into a single array, just operated at different power states as per need. Like, you don't need to output as much power to disable a slow-flying threat as you'll have more time, compared to a fast one.
So that capability will be there just thinking commonsensically. Just a question of how much it can be scaled.
Dude, the IAF posted pics of Rafale with SCALP on their Twitter handle less than a year after induction.
You're talking nonsense. IAF's PR sucks, but not because of any grand, misguided strategy. It just sucks, period.
Hey but I thought ACT was supposed to get better over time while airframe stealth gets worse?
So Rafale shouldn't be seeking an ARM for the future, rather it should be able to downgrade from LGBs to dumb bombs as it becomes able to directly overfly the threat without getting detected. Lol.
Internal and external.
Post 177.
Beast mode loadout exists as an option for all weapon systems for situations where stealth isn't necessary or you don't need to penetrate to hit the target.
What's the big deal? Even AMCA will have a beast mode.
France is in the same area. Recently Cook Islands allowed the Chinese to station troops on its territory, the islands are smack in between French Polynesia and New Caledonia, and the Chinese are conducting military exercises in the Tasman Sea. So they need to deploy advanced capabilities against the Chinese too. Especially after that circus in the Solomons.
This is how they plan on countering China.
Rafale Sets New Record, Flies Non-Stop For 17000 kilometers In 12 Hours
The Rafale fighter jet keeps displaying its dynamic features from time to time. Equipped with special firepower, Rafale on Friday covered a distance of 17000 kilometers without stopping in just 12 hours.news.abplive.com
Yeah, they're gonna take on Russia AND China.
They have like 10 modern surface combatants and 5 fleet subs. The lone carrier is a dockyard queen that won't be available for six-seven months in a year.
Wonderful.
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That comes at a loss of receiver aperture, genius. That's another disadvantage of pods.
The German Typhoon uses Arexis, which is a family of 4 jammers. 2 are carried by the fighter, one on a business jet, and one in a decoy like MALD or Abhimanyu. So yeah, the SPJ alone is insufficient wihout the second pod and the other 2 jammers. Shows you still know nothing.
You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.
Even if we use a foreign MC, it will still be a different MC, which we will have to pay for.
Ugh.
That's how it works. Why else do you think NGAD is on hold?
Lol. Must be a lot of equivalence there. The Japanese needed access to facilities they don't have, while we do.
That's not what we want out of our MRFA partner for AMCA.
Yeah, mate, with all that technical knowledge of yours coming to the fore.
Rafale with SCALP.
Hey but I thought ACT was supposed to get better over time while airframe stealth gets worse?
So Rafale shouldn't be seeking an ARM for the future, rather it should be able to downgrade from LGBs to dumb bombs as it becomes able to directly overfly the threat without getting detected. Lol.
Airframe stealth doesn't get worse, it stays the same.
And it's typical that you do not understand what was said. What's aircraft stealth got to do with firing off a 200 km SEAD weapon from stand-off range? You can't even correlate such simple things. Same as your nonsensical reply to Bon Plan earlier.
What the flying heck are you talking about?
How on earth do you correlate what was said to something completely different?
How is the F-35's beast mode got to do with the F-35 needing ARMs for SEAD? How does your mind even work?
They would like to not do either, but it's the others who decide for them. So they gotta work on dealing with China too irrespective of their political position. No one's coming to their rescue, just like us.
You guys with your 4th gen vs 5th gen is like horse and cart vs an automobile
Admit it, you know jack sh!t about these subjects.
You literally thought RWJs were impossible just because Rafale didn't have them.
On the NGAD, they're actually talking about integrating not just radar & EW but also comms (datalink transmit/receive) on the same array:
How NGAD Will Sense, Communicate, And Jam Could Be Revolutionary
NGAD's potential use of multi-function arrays that combine radar, communications, and electronic warfare functions could be a game changer.
www.twz.com
"Enter the next step in the evolution of onboard fusion — literally fusing many of the sensor, electronic warfare (as well as the ability to trigger cyber attacks), and communications functions into single multi-mode AESA arrays."
"Instead of multiple systems each doing one thing distributed around the aircraft, single arrays can now execute many of these applications."
"All three of these modes could be ‘interwoven’ nearly simultaneously. To the aircrew, it would seem just as if there were discreet arrays and systems for all these functions installed around the aircraft. The scheduling of tasks for each array is centrally managed and largely automated. By spreading these arrays around the aircraft, even if they are different sizes and configurations, spherical or near-spherical coverage for all these core capabilities can be realized with extreme efficiency."
So you admit SPECTRA is insufficient for SEAD against even Russia going forward, let alone China. Thank you.
Even if we use a foreign MC, it will still be a different MC, which we will have to pay for.
We just pay a fee for the labour cost. We don't need to pay for undertaking a project to develop a new MC that can interface with F35's systems alongside interfacing with Israeli electronics - cuz that has already been developed. You struggle to understand simple concepts.
But this argument started because you kept saying we'll insist on Indian MC. Which was a baseless claim, just made to make it seem like F35 is a non-starter, therefore we need to rely on MRFA alone.
I just showed you that having an indigenous MC or not is immaterial for a deal like this.
Probably cuz they don't have an EW expert like you to tell them that you can't put a jammer & a receiver next to each other.
The point is, nobody needs to buy a 100 jets in order to get a consultancy contract. That's something only a Dassault shill would say.
Airframe stealth doesn't get worse, it stays the same.
Your arguments from earlier conversations were that enemy sensors improve so airframe stealth will lose its effectiveness over time while ACT is infinitely upgradable so can continue to keep up - becoming more effective than airframe stealth over time.
Evidently, that's not true.
Cuz you believed that apparently, Rafale can use ACT to penetrate IADS and remain effective as a frontline fighter till 2050s:
Trump Offers F-35 Jet to India in Push for More Defense Deals
“Leak” works started
"Rafale F5 will be effective until the mid-2050s. The F-35 is probably already coming to an end without its B4 avionics."
Cuz you were trying to make it seem as though AARGM-ER could only be externally carried on F-35, therefore it won't be stealthy. While believing that Rafale would remain able to perform this mission by relying on its internal SPJ alone:
Trump Offers F-35 Jet to India in Push for More Defense Deals
F-35 in danger in europe
"They are both advanced and survivable against future threats 'cause the French have proven the system they have developed works, whereas the Americans are the ones rushing to integrate non-stealthy missiles on their F-35s for SEAD"
Probably, cuz you forgot that AARGM was designed for internal carriage as well. And you also forgot/didn't know that the French had also reassessed that they too need an ARM going forward.
And you now admit that internal SPJ isn't sufficient to perform SEAD, as the German Typhoon upgrade shows.
Your theories are just getting obliterated one after the other, mate.
Everyone from US to Philippines & Vietnam are working on dealing with China. That doesn't mean they can all hold a candle to the PLA equally, or that they even expect to.
If you think we didn't need to develop an ASAT capability because Vietnam doesn't have that despite fighting the same enemy, you're insane. Same applies to anything France has or doesn't have.
BS.
IAF is of the opinion that a 5th gen fighter (AMCA later on, perhaps F35 in the interim) is a necessity in order to meet our threats.
Stealthy CCAs will be a part of the picture regardless - they'll be accompanying pretty much *all* fighters.
Its in offer? After hearing the French blaming on thyssenkrupp for TOT, i feel like its better not to sign a deal with France. @vstol Jockey @Rajput Lion
1)US is ready to co operat, but straight forward always. They say no TOT where ever they are not willing to. No twisting words after winning the contract.
2)French twist words afterwards. Even blames Germans for transferring toomuch technology to soko & making them self reliant.
3)UK is willing, hope they will keep up with their words.
4)Russia is willing, but most of tgeir tech are sh!ty technology which fails at real life scenario. Cherry on top is delay.
5)Germans, traditionally a pak supporter. But they started showing change in their policy (probably after seeing what exactly islamic fundamenalism through their own experience ) and we are on the verge o a sub deal.
So my choice for tot & direct procurement now is 1)UK & Israel, due to reliability
2)US because of technology edge and straight forwardness
3)Germany from soko experience
I don't recomend France & Russians now.
Actually, the blame for this lies on the MoD's door. Foriegn OEMs will ofcourse try to protect as much of their IP as possible. They'd want to milk their cash cow product as much as possible.
The problem is neither the babus nor the military officers on the so-called 'contract negotiation committees' for major deals care about indigenization.
Their brief is to check L1 and T1 compliance and report back to the MoD and they stick to it. I don't believe DRDO is a part of these committees.
Otherwise, there's no way ToT would not have been included in the Kalvari B1 deal as Sandeep Unnithan pointed out in his report.
Edit: MoD needs to hire good lawyers that can help plug any holes in defense contracts, esp those related to ToT, leak of confidental info, and so on. We've been getting a raw deal in defence contracts for far too long.
I love @randomradio trying to defend the indefensible using sophisticated 
s**tery despite him fully knowing that whatever he write is pure BS .... Sometimes I wonder does he really work for Indian interest or some particular group which can not be named 
s**tery despite him fully knowing that whatever he write is pure BS .... Sometimes I wonder does he really work for Indian interest or some particular group which can not be named 
With indigenous diesel submarine planned , I don't think we ll buy German or any other submarines..
I believe Whatever is needed will be acquired from additional expensive order of 3 Scorpenes. .
Admit it, you know jack sh!t about these subjects.
You literally thought RWJs were impossible just because Rafale didn't have them.
On the NGAD, they're actually talking about integrating not just radar & EW but also comms (datalink transmit/receive) on the same array:
How NGAD Will Sense, Communicate, And Jam Could Be Revolutionary
NGAD's potential use of multi-function arrays that combine radar, communications, and electronic warfare functions could be a game changer.
"Enter the next step in the evolution of onboard fusion — literally fusing many of the sensor, electronic warfare (as well as the ability to trigger cyber attacks), and communications functions into single multi-mode AESA arrays."
"Instead of multiple systems each doing one thing distributed around the aircraft, single arrays can now execute many of these applications."
"All three of these modes could be ‘interwoven’ nearly simultaneously. To the aircrew, it would seem just as if there were discreet arrays and systems for all these functions installed around the aircraft. The scheduling of tasks for each array is centrally managed and largely automated. By spreading these arrays around the aircraft, even if they are different sizes and configurations, spherical or near-spherical coverage for all these core capabilities can be realized with extreme efficiency."
RWJ is a DRDO marketing term, nobody else uses this. This technology has been around since the 70s, only more recently on fighters. And when I say recently, I'm talking about 25+ years.
Mig-29 was the first aircraft to get a DRDO-designed RWJ in India. Mirage 2000 comes with RWJ. So does Jaguar.
Mig-21 and Mig-27 do not. Neither does the MKI. Because all these older jets used an internal RWR, but with an external pod.
LCA Mk1 and Mk1A do not. It was identified as a critical deficiency in 2013. LCA Mk2 does.
But you have absolutely no clue what we are talking about.
What you suggested is the RWR and jammer are combined on a single array. But that's not how they typically design arrays because you then have to put physical divisions on the array which reduce aperture. If aperture reduces, the range at which it detects signals reduces. So an RWR and jammer are instead separated into two arrays.
So the Rafale's frontal RWR is in the inlet while the jammer is in the canard root, it is still RWJ. That's how the separation happens. And when you maintain a physical separation, the two arrays do not interfere with each other. So interference has nothing to do with OFC either, it has to do with radar frequencies in the same band reducing the signal to noise ratio at the receiver, thereby reducing detection range or accuracy or both.
Have you noticed that sometimes your loudspeaker start crackling when your phone rings? But if you move the phone away from speakers, it stops.
That's the interference you wanna stop, and that requires physical separation.
There are other examples too, like you see white dots on your TV when you operate a vacuum cleaner. Or your car radio buzzes when you are close to a large power line.
So the answers are available in your real life already. But you are so clueless that you cannot relate one thing with another because you have zero foundational knowledge on this subject.
So how the fvk are you gonna use OFC to stop the interference between the cellphone and speakers? What's 1553 go to do with this? Do you see how you do not make sense at all. The video gives the actual answer, where you use an RF choke that specifically blocks RF to separate cellphone RF from audio signals in the electrical wiring.
Now you want a single array performing both receiver and jammer functions? Yeah, you can. But typically you wanna give up one for the other so you are 100% dedicated to just one function so you have the best possible sensitivity with maximum gain. Or you have to trade-off some functions in order to reduce interference if you wanna perform both activities. Or every time your phone rings, you have to deal with that loud annoying sound.
What you claimed is all those F-35 antennas you showed off in your image can also perform jamming. Well, nope, those are all receive-only.
The other problem is those arrays are very small. But you can circumvent that problem on large arrays 'cause you have sufficient separation. That's why radar can perform multiple functions at the same time. That's also why the NGAD with multiple arrays will be able to act simultaneously.
So this was your first lesson. So do you stand corrected?
Btw, what you quoted for NGAD, that's the plan for Rafale F5 too. So you see why pods are insufficient, and why you need embedded antennas instead.
The F-35 is being integrated with non-stealth short/medium range ARM that destroys its ability to remain hidden when conducting SEAD, while the Rafale plans to use 1000-1500 km range hypersonic ARM, but still retains its stealth and you think there's an equivalence there.
Ah, I didn't know the Israelis were that charitable, when they actually charge us an arm and a leg.
Reality. The Americans, Israelis, and Indias have to develop the MC together at different levels. Any one of us can provide the hardware. But the integration of the F-35's main MC to the new MC, the Israeli EW suite to the MC, and the MC to the Indian network have to all be developed independently.
And this is just the MC. The EW suite necessary will also have to be paid for by India. And any other specific modernization we need. There's also the comm suite, the nav suite, the IFF, and CIT too. Who's gonna pay for all that?
This is your second lesson. So do you stand corrected?
LOL.
You made a good point. But too bad nobody cares about that.
A consultancy contract gives you nothing. They only tell you if a solution you thought of works or not, and they can lie too.
Yes. The F-35 with external ARM loses stealth, but the Rafale with external weapons still maintains stealth. And the ARM planned for Rafale does not need stealth 'cause it's meant to be fired from beyond the horizon.
Cuz you believed that apparently, Rafale can use ACT to penetrate IADS and remain effective as a frontline fighter till 2050s:
Trump Offers F-35 Jet to India in Push for More Defense Deals
“Leak” works startedwww.strategicfront.org
"Rafale F5 will be effective until the mid-2050s. The F-35 is probably already coming to an end without its B4 avionics."
Yes. But the F-35 with an external ARM today, stops being effective today. Like, right this second, any F-35 carrying an external weapon will no longer be VLO.
Cuz you were trying to make it seem as though AARGM-ER could only be externally carried on F-35, therefore it won't be stealthy. While believing that Rafale would remain able to perform this mission by relying on its internal SPJ alone:
Trump Offers F-35 Jet to India in Push for More Defense Deals
F-35 in danger in europe
"They are both advanced and survivable against future threats 'cause the French have proven the system they have developed works, whereas the Americans are the ones rushing to integrate non-stealthy missiles on their F-35s for SEAD"
Probably, cuz you forgot that AARGM was designed for internal carriage as well. And you also forgot/didn't know that the French had also reassessed that they too need an ARM going forward.
And you now admit that internal SPJ isn't sufficient to perform SEAD, as the German Typhoon upgrade shows.
Your theories are just getting obliterated one after the other, mate.
Wow. Look at how you cannot relate anything.
Yes, there is an internal ARM called AARGM-ER. If the F-35 carries it, it remains stealthy. But due to advancements in IADS, the US has decided to "urgently" integrate non-stealth ARMs.
What this means is the urgency is so severe that the USAF is willing to forgo stealth for a basic SEAD capability that the F-35 was not designed for from the start. This is like the F-4 and gun incident all over again. They are doing this 'cause they think the internal version will arrive too slowly and in insufficient numbers. Why this urgency?
When you brought up the beast mode example, this mode is meant to be used when stealth is no longer required. Wouldn't you say stealth is required when the enemy still has IADS around? So why is the US willing to give up on stealth for an interim SEAD capability?
Otoh, the Rafale's ARM is meant for the F5 and consists of a Brahmos-2/Zircon class very long range ARM 'cause there are now new strategic air defense systems and other radars hidden deep inside enemy territory. Like our new Voronezh radars in Chitradurga, that's 2000 km away from Pak-China borders. There are rumors that China plans to develop 1000-1500 km air defense missiles too.
So, while the F-35 is relying on an urgent stopgap solution for SEAD, the development of SEAD on Rafale is organically a part of its natural development cycle meant for use in the future.
Do you see why you are so clueless?
This is your third lesson. So do you stand corrected?
What the heck are you talking about?
Comparing a P5 nuclear power with advanced technologies with Vietnam? Philippines?
Is this once again a demonstration of your inability to relate one thing to another?
Erm... You are quite literally arguing my point.
The IAF's interim arrangement is MRFA. There is no plan B. Any new stealth jet is for a different plan that does not interfere with MRFA. That's why 2030+.
As for the F-35.
Biden Admin Delayed Apache Deliveries To India? - Livefist
Did the Joe Biden Administration deliberately delay deliveries of six Boeing AH-64E Apache attack helicopters to the Indian Army as a diplomatic pressure tactic against India amidst the latter’s proximity to Russia and neutral stance over the Russia-Ukraine war? As Prime Minister Narendra Modi...
www.livefistdefence.com
You can see why the IAF will be apprehensive about relying on the US for critical capabilities, especially one that's not ready and also requires stopgap weapons just to stay relevant.
Btw, here, a USAF General basically explaining why the Rafale + Neuron route is where the real capabilities are.
A US Air Force general says more than just new fighters and bombers is needed to win the next war
To prepare for a future war against an adversary like China or Russia, reinventing the Air Force isn't the key to victory, a top officer said.
Instead, he said, combat success is more about integrating capabilities and systems together, using autonomy and all-domain sensing, for example. "Those are things that we're finding as game-changers," Kunkel said, because they address specific challenges to the force.
Kunkel said the Air Force's focus is on something it hadn't really done before: tailoring attributes for capabilities based on the threat. The first step, he said, is to define the threat and how it's impacting US Air Force operations.
And that's the basic philosophy behind the Rafale.
Nothing wrong with what they pointed out since the French are at a disadvantage in the SSK market as their captive maket do not operate SSKs, only SSNs. The Germans are willing to push the French out too. And this doesn't affect India.
Plus the sort of ToT we need from France for aircraft does not significantly impact their own industry.
The US can give us better tech, but are puckered up real tight, so we are not gonna get anything significant from them.
The others don't have what we need.
Our main goal for development of new tech is local programs, not imports.