Ukraine - Russia Conflict

We both know how deployments dont always mean actual plans. A war with NATO is not something Russia wants / needs. Not with a weak economy.

The flip side is - NATO knows if they try to push a fight, Russia will go for the jugular on day 1 - thats their only hope. Nukes on Day 1 make for a very messy war.

So for their own reasons, neither side will escalate things. Ukraine is as much the west's doing (maybe more) as its Russia's
The same argument could have been made about Ukraine. Putin is not making sensible choices these days.

NATO is trying avoid a fight but entry into Finland would make one inevitable. You actually raise an interesting point here too. NATO would like to keep it conventional but since Putin has not been behaving sanely of late, that might prove impossible, in which case a mass depressed trajectory SLBM strike on Russia, China and DPRK might be the result of Russia moving forces into Finland.

Nope. A drive to democracy was inevitable, the Ukrainian people were just following the same trend as every other Eastern European country since 1989. Russia turned it into a civil war by annexing Crimea along with sending saboteurs into the Donbass for 8 years. Russia wanted to hold on to its Black Sea port and for century-old historical reasons Russia believes that Belarus and Ukraine still belong to it, but unfortunately that not what maps show. It's as retarded as Britain believing that India still belongs to it.
 
In Avdiyivka, a steel structure plant was struck, where the Armed Forces of Ukraine were repairing their equipment:

photo1650278522.jpeg
 
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The same argument could have been made about Ukraine. Putin is not making sensible choices these days.

NATO is trying avoid a fight but entry into Finland would make one inevitable. You actually raise an interesting point here too. NATO would like to keep it conventional but since Putin has not been behaving sanely of late, that might prove impossible, in which case a mass depressed trajectory SLBM strike on Russia, China and DPRK might be the result of Russia moving forces into Finland.

Nope. A drive to democracy was inevitable, the Ukrainian people were just following the same trend as every other Eastern European country since 1989. Russia turned it into a civil war by annexing Crimea along with sending saboteurs into the Donbass for 8 years. Russia wanted to hold on to its Black Sea port and for century-old historical reasons Russia believes that Belarus and Ukraine still belong to it, but unfortunately that not what maps show. It's as retarded as Britain believing that India still belongs to it.

No - Ukraine was always pawn meant to be sacrificed. Russia got hit with economic sanctions - its regime change at a slow pace. The west saw a chance and took it. Its not like Putin was hiding his intentions. So when a chance came, the west took it. UK was using Ukrainian airspace to probe Russian air defences and doing mock SEAD runs. They fed Putin's paranoia.

We are in partial agreement here. NATO will only seek to disarm Russia - circle back to the US contingency plan to take out Soviet high accuracy delivery systems. H Hour + 4 - Soviets would only have city busters left. They WONT risk it with China.

Democracy is a way of governing people. Its not the only way. As long as we let our preferences cloud our judgement and worse policy these divides will keep on existing.
 
790 now. That isn't peanuts. How much does a tank cost? What about APCs and other vehicles, which are in the thousands. Fighter jets - 167. Many $bn being lost daily.

Lol, you should ask the Soviets.

Servicing unpaid debts, same way any bank does it, asset seizure and liquidation. Dollar bonds can't be paid in rubles, the same issue cropped up with Greece many years back, when it wanted to leave the EU. It was told in no uncertain terms that debts in Euros must be paid in Euros, which meant it wouldn't have been able to inflate its way out of debt on its own currency anyway. If Russia had continued taking oil/gas payments in $s, it would have enough to service its debts, but forced payments in rubles as part of its ploy to artificially manipulate its currency. But the fact is, no online retailer is taking rubles at the official exchange rate because they simply aren't worth that in reality, it's more like 160 rubles to a $ online (or was like 20 days ago, probably more now), so Russia trying to pay $X with 80X rubles simply won't fly because no currency exchange or bank will change 83 rubles into $1, except Russian state banks. So basically Putin chose to sell Russia's oil and gas at half price to the EU to artificially stabilise the ruble for the purpose of conning the few saps in Asia it was still trading with. :ROFLMAO:

The Russians not paying their debts and you stealing their money in exchange are the same?

When Russia borrows money it has to pay it back at the shown interest rates, same for the UK. The interest rate in the UK is ~1/25th of the interest rate in Russia, so 20% debt costs Russia the same as 500% debt costs the UK in servicing payments. 20% (approximate for 18% in 2020) of $1.7tr is $340bn, at 20% interest rate, that's $68bn/annum in interest payments. $68bn just to stop the debt from growing, never mind pay it down. For the UK 0.8% of ~$3tr is $24bn. Russia's debt is already almost 3 times as costly as UK debt even without the extra bills he's racking up daily and the actual inevitable shrinkage of Russian GDP.

Lol, that's not how it works. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

A friend isn't someone who buys oil from you. I said 30 democracies who are friends and support Russia in Ukraine.

@Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan, @Amarante, apparently all EU countries including France are vassal states, see quote above. @randomradio - I am utterly amazed that you think France's current relationship with the US is the same as Poland's relationship with Russia during the Cold War. Sometimes you really just need to stop talking and give your ar5e a chance.

Funny how you couldn't name your own country, had to resort to the only country in the West that actually has some semblance of a backbone.

So would you like to say the only friends of the US are India and France? But France is also a treaty ally of the US, so no. The only real democracy the US can call a friend is India. The rest are largely living in fear of the US or are under their thumb in some way or the other.

And yet you can't say no to Russia, when it is doing stupid shit?:ROFLMAO:

We did. Our official position is Russia should stop fighting.
 
NSFW Link !!

The result of the work of Chechen servicemen at the Ilyich plant in Mariupol is minus eight Azov nationalists in this shop alone:

 
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We both know how deployments dont always mean actual plans. A war with NATO is not something Russia wants / needs. Not with a weak economy.

The flip side is - NATO knows if they try to push a fight, Russia will go for the jugular on day 1 - thats their only hope. Nukes on Day 1 make for a very messy war.

So for their own reasons, neither side will escalate things. Ukraine is as much the west's doing (maybe more) as its Russia's

Russia has the ability to bomb and destroy the Finnish economy without having to resort to an invasion. Hitting power plants, refineries, transportation and ports will set them back by years, while not killing too many civilians, once enough time is allowed for evacuation. There are so few targets that it can be carried out in just a few hours using missile strikes. While I don't believe another invasion is possible, but the Russians do have other military options. I just hope the Russians are not dumb enough to actually do it.

In any case, NATO won't come to Finland's rescue due to the reasons you've stated.
 
Work on the positions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Primorsky district:

 

2+2 talks: How India and US agreed to differ on Ukraine war​

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and US President Joe Biden's virtual meeting came on the back of their differing stands on Ukraine.
Days before their meeting, Mr Biden had called India's stand "somewhat shaky" and one US official had warned that India had been informed that the consequences of a "more explicit strategic alignment" with Moscow would be "significant and long-term".

But India stood firm in its stand despite what appeared to be growing pressure from the US. Delhi continued to promote dialogue to end the war. It didn't criticise Russia directly but chose some strong words about the need to respect the sovereignty of each nation.

In that backdrop, the leaders' summit - which was not planned and was requested by the White House - is significant for geopolitical developments.

It was followed by the planned annual 2+2 Dialogue between Indian Foreign Minister S Jaishankar, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, and their US counterparts Antony Blinken and Lloyd Austin in Washington.

It's evident from the statements that both sides have shown willingness to understand each other's positions on Ukraine.

Pratyush Rao, director for South Asia at Control Risks consultancy, said the visit came at a sensitive time for the relationship.
Russian President Vladimir Putin chairs a meeting via a video link at the Novo-Ogaryovo state residence outside Moscow on 5 April 2022.
Image source, Getty Images
Image caption,
Mr Modi shares good relations with Russian President Vladimir Putin

"This was a visible reaffirmation at the highest levels by both sides to the bilateral relationship, amidst all the media speculation about deepening strains over the Ukraine conflict. The message was, yes we do differ on Russia and will unlikely bridge the gap, but won't allow it to derail wider co-operation in the Indo-Pacific either," he added.

While PM Modi and his ministers reaffirmed their stated policy of non-alignment on Ukraine, Mr Biden and his ministers appeared more understanding of Delhi's position - a marked shift from some earlier strong statements of Washington officials.

Mr Blinken said India "has to make its own decisions about how it approaches this challenge". He also noted that India had issued strong statements at the UN and it had called for an independent investigation into the killings of civilians in Ukraine's Bucha.

In a candid remark, he said "India's relationship with Russia has developed over decades at a time when the United States was not able to be a partner to India".
The building of the Hotel Ukraine shows damage caused by Russian shelling in Chernihiv, northern Ukraine.
Image source, Getty Images
Image caption,
Many Ukranian towns have been destroyed in the war

He added that "times have changed" and the US was willing to be a partner of choice with India across virtually every realm - commerce, technology, education, and security.

Former Indian diplomat Anil Triguniyat said this statement showed that the US has understood India's position in a broader geopolitical context.
"Both sides have too much to lose if the bilateral relations are strained. Their relationship is rich and the meetings just reaffirmed that," he added.
Beyond Ukraine, the two sides also reaffirmed their commitment in continuing co-operation in the Indo-Pacific, and also in the trade, defence and security sectors.
Remnants of an apartment building in Borodyanka litter the ground after the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Image source, Getty Images
Image caption,
Ukraine has also accused Russia of indiscriminate shelling of its cities

The US said it saw India as "a net provider of security in the region".

"China is seeking to refashion the region and the international system more broadly in ways that serve its interests," Mr Blinken said.
Both the US and India agree on playing a bigger role in the region to counterbalance China's growing influence.

India has a long disputed boundary with China. Their troops were involved in deadly clashes in the Galwan valley in 2020 that resulted in the deaths of 20 Indian soldiers. China said later it lost four troops in the clash.

Mr Jaishankar acknowledged that the Quad - which includes India, the US, Japan and Australia - had emerged as "a powerful force for global good" and its "elevation benefits the entire Indo-Pacific".

Mr Rao said India reposing its faith in the Quad was significant.

Russia, India's time-tested ally, has criticised the Quad and called it a forum to target China. Both Moscow and Beijing have become closer and often jointly taken stands against the West.

In that context, Mr Rao said that the Indian foreign minister's public and unequivocal endorsement of the Quad was important and will likely resonate among his audience in Washington.

Defence ties​

Washington also acknowledged that Russia is India's biggest defence supplier - accounting for more than 50% of its imports.
In contrast, the US was India's second-largest supplier between 2011 and 2015 after Russia, but fell behind France and Israel in the period between 2016 and 2021.

Former Indian diplomat Jitendra Nath Misra said India continued to import from Russia because it got good value for money, and, crucially, transfers of technology in some areas.

"The US needs to give commitments on technology transfers to be able to get a bigger share of India's defence imports," he said.
Russian S-400 anti-aircraft weapon system in Crimea
Image source, Getty Images
Image caption,
A Russian S-400 anti-aircraft weapon system in Crimea

Defence Minister Singh talked about PM Modi's "Make in India" campaign and invited US defence companies to set up shop in India.
But there hasn't been any big-ticket announcement on this. However, a significant measure was announced about the two countries jointly developing air-launched unmanned aerial vehicles.

"More such measures are needed to address India's defence needs and help reduce its dependence on Moscow," Mr Misra added.

But the crucial issue of India's acquisition of Russia's S-400 missile defence system remains unsolved.
US President Joe Biden (2L), alongside US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin (L) and India's Minister of Defense Rajnath Singh (2R), takes part in a virtual meeting with India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi
Image source, Getty Images
Image caption,
The leaders' meeting was held at the request of the White House

The purchase has come under the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (Caatsa), which was introduced in 2017 to target Russia, Iran and North Korea with economic and political sanctions. It also prohibits any country from signing defence deals with these nations.

Mr Blinken said the "US had not made a determination regarding potential sanctions or potential waivers under the CAATSA law".

There was also a veiled suggestion to India when Mr Blinken said the US was asking countries to avoid major new transactions for Russian weapons systems.

Mr Triguniyat says the ambiguity over the S-400 showed that the US wanted to keep its options open but it doesn't want to rock the boat at the moment.

It's clear that there is a lot more ground to cover for the US to replace Moscow as India's largest defence supplier.

Meanwhile, Mr Blinken also talked about India's human rights record, saying the US was "monitoring some recent concerning developments in India, including a rise in human rights abuses by some government, police, and prison officials".

The Indian ministers didn't respond to this but analysts say Democrats, including former president Obama, have raised such issues in the past.
The statement may have caused discomfort to Indians but analysts say its unlikely that the issue will become a major irritant in the relationship.

Energy and trade​

Indian companies have been trying to circumvent sanctions to take advantage of the discounted oil prices being offered by Russian firms.
When this question was put to Mr Jaishankar, he denied that India was ramping up its oil imports from Russia.

"I suspect, looking at the figures, probably our total purchases [from Russia] for the month would be less than what Europe does in an afternoon. So you might want to think about that," he said.

The US has steadily increased its export of crude oil and refined petroleum products to India - accounting for 15% of India-US trade, which stood at $113bn in 2021.

The two countries believe that there is vast potential to take the bilateral trade to $500bn in the future. The two sides announced a series of measures, including restarting the US-India Commercial Dialogue and the US-India CEO Forum, to improve trade ties.
 
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The Russian Defense Ministry has published footage of the launch of the Iskander at the command post of the mechanized brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine:

 
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Lol, you should ask the Soviets.



The Russians not paying their debts and you stealing their money in exchange are the same?



Lol, that's not how it works. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:



Funny how you couldn't name your own country, had to resort to the only country in the West that actually has some semblance of a backbone.

So would you like to say the only friends of the US are India and France? But France is also a treaty ally of the US, so no. The only real democracy the US can call a friend is India. The rest are largely living in fear of the US or are under their thumb in some way or the other.



We did. Our official position is Russia should stop fighting.
You're just poo-pooing everything that is happening here. Russia is losing >$1bn in equipment per day, before even accounting for the cost of losing people, ammunition, fuel, sanctions etc. Every $1bn costs Russia $200m in interest.

When debts aren't paid assets are seized and liquidated, that's how banking works, always has been, this is not new.

In terms of interest it is exactly how it works. The interest is always the problem part of the debt because it has to be paid, the GDP can outgrow the debt itself and more money can be borrowed to pay capital repayments even, but the interest must be paid or your credit rating flunks and nobody will lend and then you cannot pay for public services and government, never mind a Special Military Operation. Russia doesn't run at high levels of debt because it can't afford to, simple as that. Russia is done long before it reach 100% GDP at 20% interest.

You said they were all vassal states, the UK is only one state whether you want to imagine it as vassal or not. Russia's true friends, who vote on its side are China - its Soviet-era b@stard child, the DPRK - China's scrotum, and Bell-ends-r-us.

Dude, you are too retarded to be considered anything other than a mascot or pet, and you do your best not to even be a friendly pet. Honestly, your views of the west are simply dumb.

PS: It's interesting that in western culture 'special' is often used as a polite way of saying 'retarded'.

It's not really official since you didn't condemn the invasion. Your position is so neutral it's often difficult to tell if you really exist, a bit like Coffee Annan.

1650307665672.png
 
No - Ukraine was always pawn meant to be sacrificed. Russia got hit with economic sanctions - its regime change at a slow pace. The west saw a chance and took it. Its not like Putin was hiding his intentions. So when a chance came, the west took it. UK was using Ukrainian airspace to probe Russian air defences and doing mock SEAD runs. They fed Putin's paranoia.

We are in partial agreement here. NATO will only seek to disarm Russia - circle back to the US contingency plan to take out Soviet high accuracy delivery systems. H Hour + 4 - Soviets would only have city busters left. They WONT risk it with China.

Democracy is a way of governing people. Its not the only way. As long as we let our preferences cloud our judgement and worse policy these divides will keep on existing.
Or maybe the Ukrainian people just wanted something different. It's not like NATO can just mind control several million citizens to overthrow their government. Provide evidence of UK doing mock SEAD runs in Ukrainian air space. The UK, sadly, doesn't even have an ARM for starters.

That's exactly why a move on Finland would be completely retarded and NATO needs to make very clear that it's a red line.

It's the only way unless you're sh1t. Otherwise the person in power can do whatever they like indefinitely, and nobody can stop them internally, so the aass-kicking inevitably comes from outside.