Ukraine - Russia Conflict

Come on! Yanukovych made a U-turn. He ran on joining the EU and then u-turned on this promise. But overthrowing him through that chaos/Violence puts blemish on impeachment process. Victoria nuland's presence and leaked tape doesn't help either.

The agreement is like an FTA++. It is easy to break if the clauses mentioned do not meet the expectations of either party.

The issue with Ukraine is it's a country of two people. The Ukrainian side and the Russian side are divided by the river, more or less. Businesses on the Russian side would have suffered had the EU deal gone through. Basically, the Russians in Ukraine were asked to choose between Russia and Ukraine. You can imagine the EU would have had clauses that were extremely detrimental, to the point where the deal was unworkable from the start. And Yanukovych's main power base was the Russian side, so he did not have the ability to go against the flow of his people. And the Russians had enough proxies in the country to influence the Russian side to separate, bolstered by the fact that the separatists will be backed by the Russian govt.

Normally, the Russian side should have been part of Russia instead of joining Ukraine. It's no different from East and West Pakistan.

Now what some French members here are hung up about is, unlike what India did with Bangladesh, ie, exit after liberation, the Russians are planning on staying. So all the ill effects of conquering territories is coming to the fore, like internment camps, indoctrination, policing etc, made worse by the fact that the Russians half-a*sing the entire thing is delaying the war, allowing the hate to build up even more.
Yeah, because Russian troops were firing at them from there. Civilians were killed on both sides of the LOC.

How idiotic. When the fighting started, there were no Russian troops, it was the separatists who took charge. The Russians came in much later, when the separatists started failing, meaning UAF was using overwhelming force against the separatists.
 
You can't accuse a serial killer of a crime he did not commit just 'cause you personally don't like him. The Russians are very, very wrong in many ways. But this war is justified in terms of protecting Russians in Ukraine. They are the ones doing the liberating this time round.
You're saying that genocide is justified by a newspaper quota law.
 
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Explosive device went off on railroad between Novozybkovo and Zlynka in Bryansk region - Governor

 
You can't accuse a serial killer of a crime he did not commit just 'cause you personally don't like him. The Russians are very, very wrong in many ways. But this war is justified in terms of protecting Russians in Ukraine. They are the ones doing the liberating this time round.
Just read your first sentence. :ROFLMAO: How about the mass graves?

Russia caused the damn 8 year Donbass war that he now tries to write up as genocide. Only about 3,000 civilians died during the 8 year Donbass War, these deaths were split both sides as a result of using unguided artillery mainly. Putin has killed tens of times that many civilians and his troops have executed more than that many.
 
How idiotic.
I feel that every single time you post.
When the fighting started, there were no Russian troops, it was the separatists who took charge. The Russians came in much later, when the separatists started failing, meaning UAF was using overwhelming force against the separatists.
Russia had people inside Ukraine as a contingency plan even before Yanukovych was elected.

Russia came in much later? WTF are you talking about!? Russia began the annexation of Crimea before the revolution had even finished.

18-23rd Feb

20th Feb

As for the Donbass, Russian troops were in there by mid-2014 at the latest with 12,000 there by early 2015. You think some random locals put together a separatist movement in a few weeks.:rolleyes:
 
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@A Person

This is the sentiment behind the language law. They simply don't consider Russian-speakers Ukrainians. Been the case since before 2014, and they are the ones in power now.
They hate Russian speakers so much, they elected one to be their president! Come on, now. Try to have arguments that are actually based on demonstrable facts.
Er... Creating hate for the enemy you are at war with via propaganda is... normal.
What a dramatic U-turn!
You missed the part in recent history when the UAF started using artillery on the citizens of Donbas.
You missed the part in slightly older history when the supposed "separatists" that were mostly Russian soldiers with their insignia removed from their uniforms started using artillery on the citizens of Ukraine-controlled Donbass. No matter how you twist that, Russia started the war and the violence. Now of course when you attack from a city, counter-battery fire will hit the city. Then Russian propaganda will claim that civilians were deliberately targeted (as if Ukraine has ammo to waste on non-military targets).
But it's Russia which is deliberately targeting civilians, including in cities far from the frontline where there isn't any military target.

The issue with Ukraine is it's a country of two people. The Ukrainian side and the Russian side are divided by the river, more or less. Businesses on the Russian side would have suffered had the EU deal gone through. Basically, the Russians in Ukraine were asked to choose between Russia and Ukraine.
Ukrainian independence referendum, 1991:
780px-Ukr_Referendum_1991.png

Ukrainians were pretty united in wanting to be independent. This, regardless of language.

On economic issues, the questions is moot now: the economy of the regions that traded mostly with Russia has been entirely destroyed, physically destroyed, by Russian fire. But even before Putin decided he needed to have one more bloody war on his hands before his death, that economy was declining. Soviet-era mines and industrial plants that were increasingly uncompetitive in the modern world.

And a look at the economic situation in Crimea shows that Russia doesn't really have anything to bring.

You can look at economic or cultural ties, but the fact remains that Ukrainians are Ukrainians and don't want to be Russians. Even when they do speak Russian. The child-drowning bit from the Russian TV show, if you paid attention, was said in response to the show's guest talking about Russian-speaking Ukrainian children, with Russian family names (i.e., ethnic Russians) being angry at the "moskals" (slur for Russian nationals) for having ruined their country.

Ukraine has quite a different culture from Russia, notably a very different political culture. Where Russia is all about power verticality, in Ukraine there's a lot more horizontality. The way Russia has attempted to maintain control over Ukraine after its independence was through corruption. But, contrarily to the Russian population who accept everything without ever protesting out of fatalistic resignation, the Ukrainian population thinks that corruption is bad. I know, I know, this justifies genocide at least in the eyes of Putin. This opposition to corruption will lead to several uprisings. The first is the Orange Revolution of 2004, which Russia punished by attempting to assassinate President Yushchenko through tetrachlorodibenzodioxin.
Then from 2005 to 2009, Russia tried to exert pressure with gas blackmail. However, Russia could not fully cut off the Ukrainians from gas without also cutting off the EU from gas, and Russia needed the money. That's why Nord Stream was launched. NS1 was built from 2005 to 2011. But Russia also prepared a contingency for the next crisis by funding various extremist gangs of Neo-Nazis with a pro-Russian, Panslavic nationalist project. Russia took advantage of the confusion of the Euromaidan crisis to seize power in Crimea and in parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts thanks to Russian troops and their far-right fifth columns. Their attempts were, however, thwarted in Kharkiv, Mariupol and Odessa.
 
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Some pigs have found a use for a recently mobilised Russian soldier.

diesel supply till nov elections, biden trying hard to win the elections.

That's in reserves not including what's being produced and bought. Oil is only $85/bbl now, not really even expensive.