Opinion Understanding Bhima Koregaon

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You don't get it till now, do you?

Division is the EFFECT and NOT the CAUSE!

So long the CAUSE remains, the EFFECT will manifest it in one way or the other. Its whack a mole. You whack one and another pops up. How many 'state' dictates will you put then? State religion? State language? State Caste? State Race? State Economic State? State favoured 'Region'? So on and so forth.
This Secular experiment is only 70 Years old, it won't last long. Bharat continued as a Civilization because it had a Unified religion, culture Sanatana Dharma, Rest Civilizations got wiped out as they didn't have it.
I am talking about removing what you call Cause.
If You have only 1 to pick like Option A only, you can't play or tweak around it can you? Here you have Option A,B,C,D,E......Z. So there are numerous possibilities and divisions.
Also limits the interference of foreign players or ideologies. Because they can't operate in a country which has state religion.
You can't cause Mischief much in China as it has got Communism (like a state religion)
What you call state language, etc. already exist.
 
This Secular experiment is only 70 Years old, it won't last long. Bharat continued as a Civilization because it had a Unified religion, culture Sanatana Dharma, Rest Civilizations got wiped out as they didn't have it.
I am talking about removing what you call Cause.
If You have only 1 to pick like Option A only, you can't play or tweak around it can you? Here you have Option A,B,C,D,E......Z. So there are numerous possibilities and divisions.
Also limits the interference of foreign players or ideologies. Because they can't operate in a country which has state religion.
You can't cause Mischief much in China as it has got Communism (like a state religion)
What you call state language, etc. already exist.

No, you will only remove one effect at the cost of a massive blood shed. In a short span its space will be filled with multiple new divisive cracks. Because there is a reward associated with dividing people: the power that is.

Well here is the deal. Since you are comparing with China.

China . vs India
Communism corresponds to Democracy.
Forced Atheism or Limited Religious Freedom corresponds to Free Secular Setup.
Government Controlled Market Economy corresponds to Mixed Economy with a Federated Legal Framework.
State Owned Enterprise corresponds to Private and Public owned Enterprises.
so and so forth
Now you cann't just take one aspect of China and hope you will achieve rest of their characteristics.

You want less apparent division in the country? Well cann't happen if you just toss away religious freedom and still keep democracy.

Why?

Because democracy encourages discontent. Each person has a vote and he can vote according to their view. Multiplicity of views and its political implications are FEATURES of democracy and NOT DEFECTS. Democracy will be in a constant state of discontent with power getting tossed from party to party and leadership to leadership because it was intended to be this way. It ensures no one misuses the power with absolutely no repercussions. Unfortunately or rather fortunately Democracy does not impose what views can form what political alignments. That is something for the population to learn and adapt.

What you are harping about the 'Secular' experiment is more of an experiment in democracy and freedom in this region. Pakistan messed it up horribly. We are also not doing extremely well but we are getting better at getting things done democratically. Freedom and Democracy are not the most efficient ways to run a country but they are the least cruel ways known.
 
Pastor, You won't get it about BJP or Pan Hindu movement since you wear your evangelist googles.
Pan Hindu????? Is this Hindu equivalent of 'Umma-Chumma'?

:)

Reminds me a comment by Hasan Nisaar. 'Yeh log ek gali mein ikkhate nahi hei, yeh umma-chumma kahan se baneyege?'
Same applies for Hindus. Hindus are so easily divided on the lines of caste/language/state/region that entire Pan Hindu sounds like a bad joke.

M-Y Equation anyone?

For the record, its no better among Muslims.
 
Two *censored*s don’t make pan Hindu but pot (head) Hindus for sure..... :)
Says an out of work charismatic Pastor whose side income or perhaps whose main or only source of income - a conversion centre masquerading as a soup kitchen or an NGO was shut by this government under FCRA thus prompting him to froth at the mouth at the incumbent government in Delhi and bark and bite anyone showing the slightest inclination or appreciation for the current GoI.

Hallelujah !!
 
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Pan Hindu????? Is this Hindu equivalent of 'Umma-Chumma'?

:)

Reminds me a comment by Hasan Nisaar. 'Yeh log ek gali mein ikkhate nahi hei, yeh umma-chumma kahan se baneyege?'
Same applies for Hindus. Hindus are so easily divided on the lines of caste/language/state/region that entire Pan Hindu sounds like a bad joke.

M-Y Equation anyone?

For the record, its no better among Muslims.
No, Sanatana Dharma has a different concept.
 
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No, you will only remove one effect at the cost of a massive blood shed. In a short span its space will be filled with multiple new divisive cracks. Because there is a reward associated with dividing people: the power that is.

Well here is the deal. Since you are comparing with China.

China . vs India
Communism corresponds to Democracy.
Forced Atheism or Limited Religious Freedom corresponds to Free Secular Setup.
Government Controlled Market Economy corresponds to Mixed Economy with a Federated Legal Framework.
State Owned Enterprise corresponds to Private and Public owned Enterprises.
so and so forth
Now you cann't just take one aspect of China and hope you will achieve rest of their characteristics.

You want less apparent division in the country? Well cann't happen if you just toss away religious freedom and still keep democracy.

Why?

Because democracy encourages discontent. Each person has a vote and he can vote according to their view. Multiplicity of views and its political implications are FEATURES of democracy and NOT DEFECTS. Democracy will be in a constant state of discontent with power getting tossed from party to party and leadership to leadership because it was intended to be this way. It ensures no one misuses the power with absolutely no repercussions. Unfortunately or rather fortunately Democracy does not impose what views can form what political alignments. That is something for the population to learn and adapt.

What you are harping about the 'Secular' experiment is more of an experiment in democracy and freedom in this region. Pakistan messed it up horribly. We are also not doing extremely well but we are getting better at getting things done democratically. Freedom and Democracy are not the most efficient ways to run a country but they are the least cruel ways known.
Everything goes in cycles, the Secular and Democratic setup you talk about will also come to an end soon. That is what i said India made a mistake to not recognize state religion when Partition happened on the basis of religion. Pakistan ended up on the right side by adopting state religion There was already Massive bloodshed 1 million dead and everything was conducive, even people were ready to make a state religion.It is a death sentence of Gandhi,Nehru who wanted Noble peace prizes so screwed up everything. Slowly inch by inch you will be infiltrated and you will be eliminated. First was Partition,what makes you think there won't be more demands like that in future when demographics change. Kashmir is a stark example of what will happen due to Secular experiments of Gandhi and Nehru. Democracy and state religions can coexist, there are many European countries who are perfectly well with a Democracy and state religion.
What you are seeing is a change across the world. The European countries which were modern nation states with some Secular ideas will soon adopt state religions due to the Refugee influx, there will be a push back from natives against people wanting Sharia law like BREXIT, Germany,France, Netherlands, Nordic countries voting Right Wing parties to power Forget Eastern Europe, they are already rigid. USA is on that path already. Soon, it won't be cool to have the Secular nation tag. The globalist agenda is dead.
 
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Everything goes in cycles, the Secular and Democratic setup you talk about will also come to an end soon. That is what i said India made a mistake to not recognize state religion when Partition happened on the basis of religion. Pakistan ended up on the right side by adopting state religion There was already Massive bloodshed 1 million dead and everything was conducive, even people were ready to make a state religion.It is a death sentence of Gandhi,Nehru who wanted Noble peace prizes so screwed up everything. Slowly inch by inch you will be infiltrated and you will be eliminated. First was Partition,what makes you think there won't be more demands like that in future when demographics change. Kashmir is a stark example of what will happen due to Secular experiments of Gandhi and Nehru. Democracy and state religions can coexist, there are many European countries who are perfectly well with a Democracy and state religion.
If you believe that Pakistan ended up on the 'right side' then how do you explain the breaking of Pakistan and inner turmoil with in Pakistan? Clearly something is not right with religious identity for unifying and harmonizing nations with diverse population and geographical spread such as what we see in our subcontinent.

As far as European nations like Ireland go --which have concept of 'catholic nationhood' there is much more to the story then just same religion. That something is uniformity across the board in terms of language, racial identity, concept of nationhood beyond anything else. You cann't take their characteristics and apply or immitate that in India or Pakistan for that matter. You will have to approach nation building based on the reality of the nation : which is that we are way too diverse and our understanding of religion is also way too varied. Unless you apply a governance which is fit for nation, you will not end up with harmonized or united nation.

Pakistan and Bangladesh is living proof. They were too separated lingustically, culturally and geographically to have survived ups and down. Having common religion didn't help.

Its like arguing that red things smell good because there are good smelling red roses. Yes, some red things smell good but that does not mean i you will paint anything red it will smell good or rose-like.
 
No, Sanatana Dharma has a different concept.
Honestly, do you think most Hindu even know the word Sanatan Dharm? Or follow it? Religion is more practice oriented rather than bookish. Those who follow and take book(s) way too serious end up becoming extremists. And honestly, is there one single school of thought in Sanatan Dharm? AFAIK, it even allows you do deny God(s) while still being a follower of Sanatan Dharm. Do you think a person living by Sanatan Dharm principles and denying God will gel well with another one being a hardcore believer in God(s)? I highly doubt Hindus or Sanatan Dharmis will be able to combine under same banner or caucus. You have too much too different. Needs and ambitions of one perticular sub group may end up being too different from another and who knows it may align with a non-Hindu!

You know in UP Muslim's and Yadav had a weird political alignment. Somehow both of them thought that their interests are served by common leadership! While those of Brahmins and Thakurs were divergent to Yadavs. Just an example!
 
If you believe that Pakistan ended up on the 'right side' then how do you explain the breaking of Pakistan and inner turmoil with in Pakistan? Clearly something is not right with religious identity for unifying and harmonizing nations with diverse population and geographical spread such as what we see in our subcontinent.

As far as European nations like Ireland go --which have concept of 'catholic nationhood' there is much more to the story then just same religion. That something is uniformity across the board in terms of language, racial identity, concept of nationhood beyond anything else. You cann't take their characteristics and apply or immitate that in India or Pakistan for that matter. You will have to approach nation building based on the reality of the nation : which is that we are way too diverse and our understanding of religion is also way too varied. Unless you apply a governance which is fit for nation, you will not end up with harmonized or united nation.

Pakistan and Bangladesh is living proof. They were too separated lingustically, culturally and geographically to have survived ups and down. Having common religion didn't help.

Its like arguing that red things smell good because there are good smelling red roses. Yes, some red things smell good but that does not mean i you will paint anything red it will smell good or rose-like.
Are you debating with them? You haven’t figured out it’s a waste of time yet?
 
Exactly, that is what i mean, All you need is a Brain. Nobody stops you from educating yourself or competing in exams or jobs.

Some of my friends who are token SC/ST whose parents are MLA's MP. IAS,IPS and Doctors etc.. They also get reservations and SC/ST scholarships in college. I mean how is it, children of a IPS officer or a Doctor are socially inhibited or poverty stricken?
Reservations should be based on Economic status of the family. Merit should be encouraged.
You don’t have a brain and still a doctor so that shows you have disproportionate privilege
 
LOL, if i say i am a Shudra why is it casteist? Are you suffering from lack of self respect, that you find uttering the word as some sort of shame?
Casteist Brahmin Loling on every other sentence because someone called it out.

Yes Brain, is all you need. My grandfather was a farmer landed in city with meager money got a Govt. job and educated rest of his 5 brothers, got them into Govt. jobs. nobody imposed or stopped him from getting a job. Fun fact, We live in a Brahmin colony which my Grand father and a few others created that colony, i found nobody imposed anything on me or my family.
And you think in your grandfathers time it was normal to have education to get a govt job for a Dalit ? How ignorant are you ?
 
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Like we can pillory Savarkar for his groveling apologies to the British but keep mum on Gandhi's experiments in celibacy . Btw - I never referred to Periyar's wife but Karunanidhi's. On what grounds do you construe me referring to Karunanidhi's wives as an attack is beyond me . Perhaps you can elaborate. Btw - Periyar himself lost quite a bit of ground after his second marriage but I'm bringing this up here not in my post you've quoted.
Can you able to see the difference between an ideology and personal life ? You attack them personally because you failed counter them ideologically.

Savarkar is a disaster compared to Gandhi and Periyar. Both contributed to massive social change. While Savarkar continues to be remembered as a coward and stone pelter.
 
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Exactly, that is what i mean, All you need is a Brain. Nobody stops you from educating yourself or competing in exams or jobs.

Some of my friends who are token SC/ST whose parents are MLA's MP. IAS,IPS and Doctors etc.. They also get reservations and SC/ST scholarships in college. I mean how is it, children of a IPS officer or a Doctor are socially inhibited or poverty stricken?
Reservations should be based on Economic status of the family. Merit should be encouraged.
You don’t have a brain and still a doctor so that shows you have disproportionate privilege
And you rant nonsense because you have privilege but still you are nothing.
 
Can you able to see the difference between an ideology and personal life ? You attack them personally because you failed counter them ideologically.

Savarkar is a disaster compared to Gandhi and Periyar. Both contibted to massive social change. Savarkar continues to be remembered as a coward and stone pelter.

"Can you able ?" I thought it was - are you able ? Minor quibbles aside , You seem to have missed the points I was making . People who profess a particular brand of ideology will be judged both by what they said and what they did . Where the gulf in both is a chasm , they will be called out . This applies to everyone across the religious caste , linguistic , ethnic , gender divide.

The self respect movement by Periyar was as much about women's rights as it was about emancipation of the entire non Brahmanical fold within the larger Hindu religion in what was then Tamil speaking areas. That's also what his followers including Annadurai , Karunanidhi , MGR , downwards have proclaimed . Living up to his ideals is their professed mantra. Now you reconcile them with Karunanidhi's bigamy . While you're at it , perhaps you could also elaborate on how practically every case of caste violence against the Dalits in TN feature people identified with the so called OBC's and not the Brahmins .

Or is it your contention that Periyar fought anti Brahminism exclusively to emancipate a particular section which in this case happens to be the people largely characterised as OBC's today leaving out the Dalits ?Perhaps you could also comment on why every caste grouping today in TN are represented by their own exclusive political parties who tend to amplify the demands of their own caste .

It was never my contention that Savarkar was an exlempary leader deserving emulation . I brought up Savarkar in a particular context . The context being how a particular characteristic of a public personality is identified and highlighted to denigrate him . If Savarkar's groveling apology is held against him , why shouldn't Gandhi's experiments with celibacy be discussed with the same frankness as we dissect Savarkar's apology ?

Just as it's your contention that Savarkar was a disaster , there are people out here who'd hold similar views about most public figures from that era , before and since including the two you've named. The impact that such public figures had over the imagination of the people they inspired doesn't end with their deaths nor is it restricted to people of their generation or a couple of succeeding generations. Savarkar postulated his Hindutva ideology in the 20's - 30's. They have gained currency from the late 80's onwards whereas Gandhi's ideology has been on the wane ever since his departure. Do I even need to add on the relevance of Periyar in contemporary Tamil politics ?

Just as an aside - Periyar was also notorious for his views on the Tamil Language- the corner stone of Tamil ethno nationalism which along with other ideals of the self respect movement defines Dravidian politics till this day in TN . He's inspired great affection and regard among Tamil speakers inspite of it.

Similarly Savarkar in his monumental work on the events 1857 which he wrote about in such glowing terms characterising it as the first war of independence saw the Muslims as brethren of the Hindus in their fight for freedom as he described it holding out the example of Hindu Muslim unity in those days in golden prose . The same Savarkar also coined the term Hindutva and detailed his philosophy of Muslims and Hindus constituting two separate nations much later.
 
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Would have been nice if you took the same positions when rahul baba was wooing for all of the reservation leaders of Gujarat.

And bjp didn’t do that for lingayat in Karnataka? How do you think they defeated the congress to come to power? ‘Taking position ‘ -as a relatively upper class nairs I don’t get any benefits by supporting Dalit reservations and in fact lose benefits for my community but I still support it because it is the right thing to do. Nairs secured our position against upper classes by monopolizing large sections of political power through nss. People don’t fuc with us today because they are sure things won’t go well if they do. Let me tell you until the Dalit do the same and secure themselves highly unlikely mistreatment will stop and will be taken for granted. In Bhima Koregaon shops were shut to deny access to food and water, stones were thrown in a preplanned way and they were beaten. You think anyone would have the guts to do that to nairs? Consequences will be severe.
 
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